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Illaiyaraja' music and style already in other parts of the world?

Topic started by Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on Thu May 7 22:48:50 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Friends, this is an ambiguous quesiton. It actually a rhetoric, or it begs the question? I am not sure. However, I want to ask you Raja die-hards if you have found anything similar to Raja's style of music and Raja' s tunes in other parts of the world? I believe I have and I want to make certain soon enough.

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Responses:

• From: Sleepless and Restless over Maestro lllaiyaraja (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Thu May 7 23:00:22 EDT 1998
  
  To start off, I think I have found the scores for Men In Black, Phenomenon (John Travolta film) new and strange for Hollywood movies. It has a Illaiyarja touch. Both these movies I think has the same composer, David Elfman. I am not sure, but when I heard the scores in the movies, I sat up since my instincts are strong as far as music goes. Elfman must be sourcing from Ilaiyaraja. Second in the TVseries, Dharma & Greg, the signature or opening music almost (not entirely) note for note and instrument takes off after the opening piece of Raja's super guitar piece for the song Vizhiyil Un Vizhiyil Oru Poo Poothadhu. I saw the 3 or 4 of the series only as I could not after that. Is it time that Raja himself did a Hollywood film. Isn't it time that Raja released a theme music or his Symphony to say the least, that HERE IS THE ORIGINAL, THE ONE AND THE ONLY RAJA! Since his Bloodstone score, Raja has evolved into something phenomenal even too good for Western musical genre. Where are the Amritraj Productions, my Dear Friends? It is time they wore the Classic Attire from India. Come on, let us get this from the Isaignani!
  
  
• From: SRikanth (@ 97.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Fri May 8 00:06:17 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  I too had the same doubt with the scores, after going thru the notes of Men-In-Black & Phenomenon (quite old movies!), I feel these are western classical notes formation, which raja has also used in his scores. Raja introduced a international flavor to the Tamil movies.
  
  I heard a rock song in a local FM station (KDWB-101.3 Minneapolis) - I did not get the name of the singer, but the entire song was set in Mayamalawa gowali ragam.the guitar and violin scores were just SA Re Ga Ma Pa tha ne Sa! notes!
  In fact It had few pieces of MalaHari --- Lombodhara - first song a person learns to when he learns carnatic music).
  (Sa Re MA.. GA RI SA RI GA RI SA..)
  Kdwb Dj was comparing this song with the opening score of twlight zone serial.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Fri May 8 00:39:32 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth
  
  Thanks for the really technical way of saying. I appreciate that aspect of the analysis. So, you do feel that MIB and Phenomenon are based on western notes? You may be right, however I have not heard that style and that structure of composition in major hollywood movies before.
  MIB and Phenomenon are only over 1 and half years old. (So, Raja is way years ahead of any of the new composers in Hollywood.) But, I feel that the basis or structure is not entirely western. The style is also very new and not entirely western, as the scores have the same structure as a Raja composition of several years back.
  
  Second, could the song that you have heard in the local station been that of Eric Johnson's? In fact, one of his songs, the Venus Isle, starts off in just the manner you said.
  
  If you like to hear carnatic and hindustani based jazz-rock on the guitar, get Eric Johnson's Venus Isle. In fact, the first number has the similar raga as Ilaiyaraja's 'Maanin Siru Kangal Konda Maane Maane (Maappillai or Panakkaran, Rajni movie).
  
  Eric Johnson has used a T V Gopalakrishnan style intro for that first number (a very beautiful composition) and also for the 6th or 7th number. In fact, it one Amit Chatterjee who is doing the vocal and the tabla. I can confirm the name if interested. Eric Johnson, is one of the first western composers to go entirely carnatic or hindustani inspired compositions. That album is a MUST BUY.
  
  Srikanth, did you check out Dharma and Greg, the series on Wednesday nights on NBC or ABC, I don't remember, but it is going on.
  
  Any inputs from listeners of all types of music?
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 161.225.48.3) on: Fri May 8 12:22:23 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Nithin,
  
  The song was by a female artist.
  It is a brand new album, I will soon get the CD
  and let you know the name
  
  Western compostions are like stars in the sky.
  There are billions of them.
  There is no need for a composer to take raja's score. if some score of Raja comes in MIB or any other movie - I say It is pure co-incidence
  
  There is an old song ulagam endrum ore mozi - (1950's I think), BoneyM had a song
  By the rivers of babylon in Mid70's , which is exactly like Ulagam endrum ore mozi...
  Once again it is co-incidence.
  
  There are only 7 notes to play around with..
  As raja says Music is just juggling around with these 7 notes.
  
  (As we computer programers live on other mans ignorence of not knowing computers)
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ dsi.mids.com) on: Fri May 8 13:33:18 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin:
  
  I think Srikanth makes a valid point about compositions. I listen to soundtracks myself, and Danny Elfman (not David) is one of the most innovative composers of recent times. He is Tim Burton's (Batman, Edward Scissorhands) regular composer.
  I think his style of composition is more playful than previous composers'. Let me try to explain "playful". In many old scores, you'd find the heavy use of violins etc. making the whole score sound extremely melodramatic. Elfman's tunes are lighter, more supple, constantly veering away in most unexpected directions.
  I think the resemblance you notice between his music and Raja's is because of this reason (I may be wrong). 'Coz Raja too has used Western Classical Music in a very light, unmelodramatic, not-bound-by-traditional-norms fashion.
  However, I do agree that the Dharma and Greg music (ABC, 7:70 Central, Wednesdays) is remarkably similar to the song you pointed out. Funny. But I think this too is coincidental.
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Fri May 8 14:25:22 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth and Bharath
  
  I have got to meet your folks and really discuss this. This is serious stuff. You have ascertained certain answers I was looking for. My deduction from this is: IR's influence is catching on big tie. Bharath, I really relate with your analysis about Dan Elfman. It is exactly what I was going to say, could not find the words. Indian music is a big showpiece in many of the US Universities, including film music. Why one obscure University I went to was having various Indian forms of music examined in their Music degree programs. It is all over Europe and US. Just as ARR get ideas from Alban, here guys are intelligent enough (why not the Beatles) to source ideas from India be it music or any other art forms. However, I have not found sculptors able to 'simulate' a RadhaKrihhna, a Nataraja or a Ganesha or the Indian emblem styles. Because it cannot be. IR's music is travelling at the speed of light to the RPH, to Paul Mauriat, to other part of Asia, Europe and just as it is difficult to give credit to a Alban tune for his own people to know that he is being emulated by non other than ARR, we cannot have Danny Elfman (this guy 's scores are really beautiful and totally Rajaesque, never before heard in Hollywood or in Western music patterns) confirming allegations in the West that he has copied IR unless the people are dedicated listeners of IR's Tamil songs , or for that matter Boney M (Frank Farian, Germans composers love carnatic music) has copied MSV but is not made to acknowledge.
  
  My opininon is: There are Anand Milind's Anu Malik's in Hollywood sincerely copying the Guru! I am happy, but let the Original Raja be declared very soon.
  
  So, by the way did you not like the Dharma and Greg tune? It is great, is it not, precise and sweet.
  
  Let us please continue on this one.
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Fri May 8 14:27:48 EDT 1998
  
  Folks, by the way:
  
  In this world, I have not come across coincidence as even being a remote characteristic of creative intelligence or pursuits. It is almost like finger prints, no two alike! So, forget the coincidence. There are no TWO Raja's.
  
  Excuse that assertion, Srikanth and Bharath. But, I am very glad to hear your observations.
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ dsi.mids.com) on: Fri May 8 16:07:05 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin:
  
  Phenomenon is not by Danny Elfman. And I think you're confusing the lead actress of D&G (Jenna Elfman) with the composer (in no way related to the show).
  Back to the topic of who'd influenced by whom. Remember Vangelis, the composer of great '80s scores like "Chariots of Fire' and "Blade Runner"? We think he's unique because he did entirely synth-based ("electronic") scores.
  As far as Raja is concerned, his acknowledged tribute to Western Classical Music is the use of those extended violin/flute combinations. Now, the fact is that Raja's music is unique "in India" because this sort of classical influence is not common in other Film Music composers. But this kind of music is the basis of innumerable Western Classical pieces, from which the grammar of scoring for their films is derived.
  So, if Elfman and Raja derive inspiration from the same source, wouldn't some of their output sound similar too?
  And, from your assertion that "I have not come across coincidence as even being a remote characteristic of creative intelligence or pursuit", am I to infer that you do not think great minds can think alike :--).
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Fri May 8 19:18:21 EDT 1998
  
  Bharath
  
  Interesting. First, I am aware of the various Elfman's that are populating US Entertainment Industry. Danny Elfman (for a moment I had thought it was David), Bodhi Elfman brother of Jenna Elfman of Dharma & Greg. I also realized that Phenomenon has a different composer and the score is not really a discussion material of this thread. Perhaps, I may have got the John Travolta movie name wrong (remember, he is an Angel in one of his recent movies?)
  
  Second, I do not argue with the fact that great people cannot think 'alike'. However, on what grounds are they alike and is only like? The significance of that proverbial truth is that great people think at levels higher and far subtle than people who do not! And, that is to say that great people think far at such high levels that while they have same underlying motives, however, each one of those great people have, by God's subtle touch, never able to or never can present their themes, their beliefs, their creativity like another equally great person, unless one imitates the great, which is not an uncommon occurrence.
  
  So, I defend my argument about Illaiyaraja being highly original as far as grammar, presentation and every other aspect of his musical creativity is concerned. Not withstanding, that in my ardent random walks across the Universe of Music, where you will also find me sticking my ear to the ground of music that feels extraordinary, you can be sure that to date I have not found anyone with that capability and originality and arguably, the best musical proposition as is Illaiyaraja. In the last 23 years, before and after.
  
  Would you still stick by your beliefs that two great people can think alike and do alike? If you do, these two by the virtue of their similarity can no longer be great, since they cannot be called original, unless by some remote chance, which not heard of this Mother earth, two great people were created at the SAME time, thought alike at the SAME time, did things alike at the SAME time, that the people have declared both of them the Only Originals. Different eras do not produce originals, but only followers. Therefore, Elfman whose musical efforts does not mostly reflects traditions of his musical predecessors of his land, could not have brought in his originality from Western classical musical grammar, instead has derived inspiration from a different set of musical beliefs, forms and ventures, that have not really been popular before advanced technology arrived and helped in the cross pollination of creative endeavors across the globe. To seek inspiration for style and construct from a common grammar or paradigm is not really something to be called as achieving, so long as it does not look very similar to the source itself and as long as the common source is not one who has set his own classical interpretation of musical grammar and is not Illaiyaraja himself. This quality speaks out for Illaiyaraja's distinctive greatness (genius), originality and absolute accomplishments that cannot be emulated, unless simulated!
  
  There is one way, you could put Illaiyaraja in the league of some type of Great. Corporate leaders, who are not distinct, not geniuses (in the strict sense of the term, where there are thousands floating to take up that job if this guy makes a blunder). Similarly, other non-creative great people all think alike, how to make millions by doing something, before a million others will do it elsewhere!!!
  
  Unfortunately, in this world of 3 billion people there is only man who could be born Illaiyaraja, a chance or just one of the many greats who think like any other great guy?
  
  This is where I would like to ask you to not use that word which ordinarily applies to a person who has got the opportunity to uplift himself from mediocrity to a level a step higher! I do not think, you can apply that word to indicate a genius and compare a genius to 'a great'.
  
  In that vein, you are going to place Shakespeare, Valluvar, Ramanujam, Kannadasan, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Gandhi, Asoka, Buddha and so on as great people who copied from another genius and should be called only a great, because if a genius has copied an earlier thinking, style, grammar should be condemned to a level of greatness as their basis of genius is some established beliefs, patterns, grammar, et al. that these geniuses have incorporated into their works and therefore they are no longer individuals with a completely original personality, but are just greats!
  
  Bharath, to be frank your argument holds no water! By the way, I have heard Vangelis' score in the Bladerunner and Chariots of Fire. Completely original. After that, we have not heard of this Great. ARR is prolific than Vangelis, thank God!
  
  Getting back to Elfman and Illaiyaraja drawing inspiration from the same grammar, true, Indian classsical music has perhaps more grammar as it had more time to evolve. We are talking of the presentation styles, not the substance of universal truths. I have listened to Classical Music of the last 300 years, and as you rightly observed there is no playfulness, rather there is a development of one theme until that theme is exhausted.
  
  Till date, until I heard Elfman's scores a year back, that grammar of playfulness and to be more academic, the fabric of formative Indian Theater/Film music, I have not seen that playfulness in Western film scores of popular music, which I always thought has a certain restricted that would not permit a more vibrant, highly ornamental, extremely creative forces of art to be imbibed.
  
  This is what surprised me when I came upon Elfman's score which has a great deal of resemblance to Indian film music interlude styles in general, not necessarily Illaiyaraja's composition patterns. Elfman must be trying to be different from the crowd of Western classical based musical presentation, which in my honest opinion, 90% of them do not make sense as they are long-drawn, boring and lack that vibrancy, eclecticness, variety or most simply some melody! The remaining 10% scores are Batman (which by the way is not Danny Elfman. It is by Jerry Goldsmith or the other …man, it is highly western classical grammar based, is dramatic, has a melodic harmony, lacks everything else I am looking for) Star Wars, Midnight Cowboy, Somewhere in Time, Lawrence of Arabia, Ben-Hur. The Sound of Music and a few others. Themes, generally very serious, straightforward, absolutely non-experimental and non-innovative, however, extremely original and brilliant pieces that followed strict grammar, rules and fell within the pre-defined confined of Western classical music patterns.
  
  Illaiyaraja has never cared to produced similar musical patterns/themes, however, it is heartening to know, as per my observations and to some extent drawing from our parleys here, that it is now the beginning of a reverse following. Illaiyaraja being imitated in Hollywood!
  
  Dharma & Greg is hardcopy evidence, literally, by the way, has its main undercurrent in Indian religion, that we cannot rule out the possibility of the composers doing research of Indian music to make the series really authentic. You may have noticed the décor of the sets, the dialogues are all very much make a dig anything Indian. (I saw the first 4 weeks about 7 month back and not seen since then.)
  
  Bharath, you may entirely repudiate my 'paper' here, but somehow your points cannot be right, unless scientifically proven and has convincing reasearch based on a study of some exclusive people, because I do not believe Raja is a GREAT, but A PHENOMENON.
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Sat May 9 02:09:48 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth
  
  I want to backtrack to one statement that bothered me. You said, Western music is like billions of stars in the sky. My question is, what is the shortfall in music from India? And, your point, there is no need for anyone to copy from Raja. This is because, it is not within the scope of the clearly defined Western Classicall School of Music to incorporate new elements. Even Rock, Hard Rock, Pop sounds are clearly laid out with very few groups standing out for any innovativeness in their musical presentations. Therefore, you are right, there are billions of stars out there, however, none really that twinkles in your inner mind and set to captivate your imagination or bring awe and provide enough fodder for a discussion such as ours in the TFM pages. There is enough variety in Indian film music, that we can introspect on each song of any composer and write pages. The copying is however beginning as I have put out in the earlier 'paper' and we should see a vibrancy rather than classicism about western compositions, if I may say so.
  
  There has always been a degree of presumptousness about Western classical leaving aside Russian Classical composers (who have adapted some Islamic idioms in their music or rather Meditteranean, as you would find in Prokofiev or Mussorgsky). Until Ben Hur and Lawrenc of Arabia movie themes came, there has really never been a noticeable feature of experimentation or innovativeness about Western musical forms and derivates. It became the birthright of pop music to bring in some innovative sounds in to the rock and pop music world in the West.
  
  With distinct sounds introduced by a few great Eruopean pop groups, such as ABBA, Boney M, Baltimora, Deff Leppard, Pink Floyd and some American artistes such as Prince, Simon Garfunkel, Carpenters, Neil Diamond, Julio Iglesias (Latin American) and some exceptional classical Spanish Guitar artistes, I have not come across even among the above, except for ABBA and Dire Straits, a style that is extremely original, exquisite and impossible been given a shape so distinct as to standout to represent highest levels of imagination.
  
  Your comment is quite a common defense by any listener in India, whose first inborn opinion is that anything we have done in India should be of second-rate quality and lack originality. If proper reasearch is followed, the saptaswaras, along with Hindu philosophy were already part of he earliest cultural exchanges the world could have ever seen more than 2000 years ago. A musical system so well established over 2000 years back, could not have remained within the shores of birth and must have been part of the luggage carried by travellers to the West centuries back.
  
  There are Billions of Stars in the skies over India too and they are much older.
  
  

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