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IR vs ARR - Who is the best user of piano

Topic started by Dorai (@ 12.144.36.2) on Tue Feb 12 14:19:24 EST 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hello Everyone,
I keep hearing in Sun TV interviews, Sabthaswarangal etc that ARR is the best pianist around. But I feel that IR is miles ahead of ARR in composing using Piano. Some great examples are as below

En Vaanille Ore Vennilla (Johny) - Esp the starting bits

Malai En Vedthanai Kuttuthadi (Sethu) - The starting bit.

Nee Partha Parvaikuru Nanri (Hey Ram)

On the other hand I can provide some examples of ARR's use of piano too.

1. Thendralee Thendralee (Kadhal Desam)- Starting bits, interludes (just brilliant)
2. Vennillave Vennilave (2nd interlude)

But I feel IR's compositions of Piano is too creative and not repetative. Any opinions?.

I would like you all to bring some more IR's use of piano and compare it with ARR's with due respect to both of their works.

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Responses:

• From: sats (@ 139.177.224.101) on: Tue Feb 12 14:26:34 EST 2002
  
  Y do we always need to discuss something like who is best etc , may be the topic could have read as
  the use of piano best of arr & ir , sickening to see one more IR & ARR bashing
  
  
• From: sarath (@ 131.238.34.140) on: Tue Feb 12 15:13:16 EST 2002
  
  yes! sats is right. as everyone knows both are genious and both have diff thoughts about composing. IR is more orthodox whereas rehman is entertaining and fusion kinda guy!
  both have good look at it!
  
  
• From: muthu (@ 169.71.1.248) on: Tue Feb 12 15:14:02 EST 2002
  
  how about "then pothigai vaigai nathi" (IR) in some rajini movie?
  
  
• From: prakash (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Tue Feb 12 15:17:54 EST 2002
  
  viji manuel who plays for raaja is one of the best piano players.he is the son of late handel manuel,a well known western classical composer and conductor.whatever tough the notes may be viji used to play it manual.he will very rarely sequence it.he was an real asset to raaja's compositions.
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 12.144.36.2) on: Tue Feb 12 15:20:41 EST 2002
  
  Prakash,
  Good to know about Viji Manuel.
  
  
• From: Jram (@ 12.22.60.1) on: Tue Feb 12 15:37:41 EST 2002
  
  Viji, Dilip (now ARR) used to be regulars for Raja. Some say IR used to have a third key board player - Mani Sharma (the MD for Shajahan) - for a few films.
  
  Piano is strongpoint of IR, and so is classical/and acoustic guitar.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Tue Feb 12 15:42:59 EST 2002
  
  IMO, IR has done justice to almost all the instruments except tabla. Barring the wonders like maanjOlai kiLi dhaano, an intricate usage of tabla was missing in his songs. String instruments have been extensively investigated by him various songs.
  
  Piano:
  
  (1) en vaanile
  (2) anjali^3 (second interlude)
  (3) chinna puraa ondru
  (4) thenmadurai vaigai nadhi
  (5) azagu aayiram ulagam muzuvadhum
  (6) uravugaL thodarkadhai
  (7) sangeetha mEgham prelude
  (8) kaNNan vandhu
  (9) kaNmani anbodu kaadhalan
  
  Guitar:
  
  (1) Ilaiya nila
  (2) nee dhaane en pon vasantham
  (3) nalam vaaza
  (4) en kaNmani un kaadhalan
  
  Group Violin:
  
  (many songs)
  
  (1) raasaaththi unnai
  (2) aruna kirana deepam
  (3) chandirarum sooriyarum
  (4) How to name it
  (5) poonkadhave thaaL
  
  Violin (solo):
  
  (1) raaja paarvai theme
  (2) pallavi anupallavi's theme
  (3) poonkadhave thaaL thiravaai
  (4) poomaalai vaangi vandhaan(second interlude)
  
  Flute:
  
  (1) vaanuyarndha sOlaiyile
  (2) pachchai malai poovu
  (3) maNNil indha kaadhal indri
  (4) poonkadhave thaaL thiravaai (this song seems to come n almost all classes)
  
  choral harmony:
  
  (1) unnai edhirpaarththen
  (2) ennuLLe ennuLLE
  (3) thendral vandhu
  (4) yEdho moham
  
  And when it comes to ARR:
  
  Piano:
  
  (1) thendrale thendrale (my all time fav)
  (2) thangame thamizukkillai ( interlude)
  (3) hello mr.edhirkatchi
  (4) oh veNNilaa
  
  Guitar:
  
  (1) paalakkaattu machchanukku
  (2) sambo sambo
  (3) July maadham vandhal (oh - classic it really is)
  
  group violin:
  
  It has been sparsely use by ARR but effectively.
  
  (1) minnale nee vandhadhEnadi (the group violins that run in the BG of the song
  (2) veNNilave^2 first interlude
  (3) veNNilaavin thErilEri
  (4) bombay theme
  (5) veerapaaNdi kOttaiyile
  
  solo violin:
  
  once again rare
  
  (1) minnale nee (awesome interlude)
  
  Flute:
  
  (1) pudhiyamugam theme
  (2) bombay theme
  (3) anjali^2 interlude
  
  choral harmony:
  
  (1) raasaaththi ennusiru ( classic)
  (2) columbus (viNmeengaLai kiLLi)
  (3) swaasame
  
  seems like they have emphasized on every instrument pretty much.
  
  
• From: Peter Pan (@ 170.140.250.113) on: Tue Feb 12 16:05:25 EST 2002
  
  MS
  Impressive!
  But do you really think he hasn't handled Tabla so well?
  I'm sure you have listened to 'Vanamellam Shenbagappoo vAnellaam Kungumapoo!' I thought the Tabla was great in that song(the rhythm was seemingly simple, but complex)
  Can u share with us some examples of good use of tabla by other MDs?
  
  
• From: nachi (@ 146.74.1.65) on: Tue Feb 12 16:32:27 EST 2002
  
  vidya sagar in an interview sai all he is today is because of what he learnt working with MSV and illayaraja..
  Did he play any instrument(piano??) for IL ??
  
  
• From: prakash (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Tue Feb 12 16:55:02 EST 2002
  
  vidyasagar played santoor for ir.he played for raaja in several hit songs like ''vellai pura onru'' from the film puthukavithai and in several films during early 80s.he then worked as an assistant to s.a. rajkumar for the film ''chinna poove mella pesu''.the orchestration of songs in that film will be similar to that of raaja's style. mani sharma has also played key board for raaja.mani sharma once told in an interview that working with raaja was a great experience.he said that ir is an dictionary for film music.
  
  
• From: UV (@ 134.113.203.85) on: Tue Feb 12 16:57:33 EST 2002
  
  Mr.Prakash
  'vidyasagar played santoor for ir.'
  As far as i know Mr.Viswesvaran husband of famous dancer 'Chitra Viswesavaran' is a accomplished rthym guitarist and also a santoor player.
  He usually plays for IR.
  But havent heard about vidyasagar playing santoor for IR
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Feb 12 17:22:57 EST 2002
  
  MS,
  I think you have missed out IRs effective use of the drums. I am not sure about tabla though. Why would somebody like, Talvin Singh, a tabla artiste from UK, decide to work with IR ? Is it because of his melody or because of his usage of tabla ?
  
  (BTW, I think controversial topics are the ones which are generating hits in newtfmpage. And because of the hit rate there is some good postings as well. Any topic with a sedate title is soon likely to go back in the LRU list)
  
  
• From: Dark Angel (@ 136.182.2.225) on: Tue Feb 12 17:29:52 EST 2002
  
  From: prakash (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Tue Feb 12 15:17:54 EST 2002
  
  viji manuel who plays for raaja is one of the best piano players.he is the son of late handel manuel,a well known western classical composer and conductor.
  
  --------------
  
  Didn't ARR himself learn the piano from Handel Manuel?
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Tue Feb 12 17:35:54 EST 2002
  
  Peter:
  
  My inference is only from the limited number of songs I have observed. But considering the number of songs IR has tuned using tabla, I will surely hold that he did not as much justice as he had for ALL other instruments including drums. The song which u have mentioned does seem light a sprk in my memory.
  
  Best tabla usage had been from MSV. In fact I sometimes wonder if there is anything in Indian music that has not been attempted by MSV. Be it ghazal, hindustani, carnatic, rock n' roll, a western classical type string arrangement ( u should listen to the instrumental that was being played in ceylon station), he was an absloute master. One, out of the memory example will be malare kurinji malre..
  
  The only drawback of MSV was the unbalanced volume levels in instruments. This became finer with IR and finest with ARR.
  
  Not to forget the great KVM whose usage of veeNa and mrudangam are still unparallelled. All songs of thillaana mohanaambaaL and ShankaraabaraNam can be given as apt examples.
  
  
• From: avr (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Wed Feb 13 01:19:53 EST 2002
  
  MS:
  
  Which are the ghazals or Hindustani songs by MSV?
  
  
• From: Avr (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Wed Feb 13 05:32:25 EST 2002
  
  there are so many IR-ARR threads in this site! Gosh! Its like LM-AB, KK-Rafi on HFM pages :-)
  
  I wont be surprised to find one IR-ARR thread on each instrument - piano,flute,guitar,drums,tabla,saxophone, jaltharang,mridangam.......
  
  
• From: oruvan oruvan mudhalali (@ 203.199.231.13) on: Wed Feb 13 10:04:35 EST 2002
  
  helloooo.. what kinda question is this?
  Piano -- Arr any day.
  Harmonium -- Ir always!!!
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Wed Feb 13 10:25:09 EST 2002
  
  avr:
  
  A recent album by MSV named "sangeetham santhOsham" has ghazals by SPB. FYI, some ghazal type songs he has given are:
  
  (1) thEdum kaN paarvai
  (2) indhap pachchai kuzandhaikkoru - somehow I relate this to chupke chupke of ghulam ali. the lines "kheench lEna wo mEra parde ka khona" with the lines " endhak kuzandhaiyum nalla kuzandhai dhaan maNNil piRakkaiyile"
  
  Hindustani:
  
  If I remember rigt there is one song sung jointly by ghantasala and TMS (a sivaji- K.R.Vijaya movie in which shivaji suffers from nght blindness). The song is "ulagin mudhalisai thamizisaiye". Ghantasala sings the hindustanin portion and TMS the carnatic portion. A very good song.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Wed Feb 13 10:27:27 EST 2002
  
  Another ghazal type song which MSV has tuned is - "chinna chinna thooral enna". though it is backed by IR's intricate orchestration, the lead tune is still ghazalish.
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 12.144.36.2) on: Wed Feb 13 11:20:37 EST 2002
  
  Hello MS,
  The only drawback of MSV was the unbalanced volume levels in instruments. This became finer with IR and finest with ARR.
  -----------------------------------------------
  I do not know that it is true. I do not think it is unbalanced volume level that was a problem with MSV. I think it is more of general lack of orchestration knowledge that was the drawback of MSV. His emphasis was more on the melody and tune and not on the orchestration. Whereas IR was and still is the master when it comes to orchestration and arrangement. I do agree as time passed we got better recording instruments/techniques which IR and ARR have exploited. If you see even with the most modern recording techniques available I do not see ARR coming better off than IR when it comes to orchestration or arrangement.
  
  IMHO, ARR's music may sound very high in quality as far as the recording goes but I think it will never match IR's arrangement or orchestration.
  
  
• From: Mr. Observer (@ 64.105.35.119) on: Wed Feb 13 12:49:46 EST 2002
  
  MS, 'ulagin muthal isai..' is by TMS and PBS.
  
  Dorai general lack of orchestration knowledge...quite obvious that you have not heard enough.
  
  
  

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