Topic started by RJ Uncomparable!!!! (@ 205.188.209.42) on Sat Oct 5 23:27:06 EDT 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
IMHO, a genius composer of most difficult and consummate melodies is Ravindra Jain in Indian films. Actually the most brilliant structure came from RJ. I don't know if IR has composed melody structures as seen in RJ songs like "Sunayna" & "Yeh Goriyan Only Karthi Raja's "Krishna Krishna" is only one Tmail song of that complex structure. Anyone recognizes any other? Also, RJ gives a lot of ambience in the songs, all songs of Chitchor for example. His Prelueds and interludes are also extremely amazing, especially use of flute is on par with IR's genius. And, therefore I find a comparison with IR worth discussing. (I find that HFindustry ignores RJ's genius because he gave most songs to Yesudas!)
Responses:
- From: Guru (@ 129.49.81.33)
on: Sat Oct 5 23:45:23 EDT 2002
I agree!! RJ is an intelligent man. VEry strong in music fundamentals!
- From: yaaro (@ 195.93.50.7)
on: Sun Oct 6 04:04:59 EDT 2002
another thing about RJ-he is blind!
- From: Vj (@ 61.11.80.42)
on: Sun Oct 6 05:12:13 EDT 2002
WHAT?
- From: yaaro (@ 195.93.50.7)
on: Sun Oct 6 07:00:19 EDT 2002
http://www.dhadkan.com/cgi-bin/dhadkan/profiles.cgi?artistID=123&jnd=F
//Ravindra Jain is blind from birth. His intense appetite for knowledge and his elder brother ...//
- From: Guru (@ 129.49.80.206)
on: Sun Oct 6 08:31:15 EDT 2002
He is visionless by birth!!His assistants write notes for him..He is the real life Kaasi
- From: av (@ 132.206.52.149)
on: Sun Oct 6 09:35:57 EDT 2002
Well Yesudas was not successful in HINDI films for the same reason that SPB sint successful in Malayalam films..non-nativity of accent. Ravindra Jain has given LOTS of songs to singers other than KJY..asha, lata, hemlata, suresh wadkar, manna dey and many more. RJ has created an array of superhits. His "saathi re bhool na jaana mera pyaar" ranks one amongst Asha's best songs...its a delightful song. Ravindra Jain has worked for two movies under RK banner...so its wrong to say he was neglected by HFM.
Ravindra Jain gave quality music despite his disability in terms of poor vision.
But without denying RJ any credit, let me say that IR is leagues ahead. IR is in a different class altogether. There are a few MDs like Salilda, MSV who fall in the same league, but ultimately I feel IR comes out winner in terms of versatility and speed of composition, besides the total quantity of output as well as the scintillating BGM scores.
And even today, 850 films after Annakilli, IR can give something like Azhagi and above all IVann. A classical score in the disco age! And a wonderful one at that!
- From: Harish (@ 203.124.242.102)
on: Sun Oct 6 10:04:55 EDT 2002
Av,
There has been lot more politics too apart from the simple reason of KJY's nativity etc..
Kishore Kumar was scrared to his wits end when KJY entered Hindi filmdom & he used a pressure tactic of not singing for music directors if they used KJY..It is a well known history...
A short while before KJY's entry , we had Vani Jayaram singing for Guddi .. Which had the Mangeshkar sisters using the similar ploy.. I am still agreat fan of Lata but this act of hers was not in very good taste..
There was an article in Hindu also ( Friday times) around 4 years back when I had read this again & I told myself..How come such bold things were writeen in Hindu too .. Also people of those times have not forgotten these things..
- From: av (@ 132.206.52.149)
on: Sun Oct 6 11:07:08 EDT 2002
there we go again! :-) a lie repeated 100 times becomes a fact!
KK scared of KJY! LM,AB scared on VJ! someone else scared of SPB! Now alka scared of chitra? wow.
- From: av (@ 132.206.52.149)
on: Sun Oct 6 11:14:28 EDT 2002
another point - for all the usual crap that KJY speaks about,how generous has he really been in his own state? How far has SPB gone in Malayalam films, really? How far did Manna Dey go (despite being half Malayali)? How about Jayachandran not becoming as successful as KJY? How many films was a superlative composer like Salilda offered in Malayalam? Just 20! Generosity at its zenith.
Sanctimony seems born to some people. along with their singing talent. For a singer with a pathetic accent, KJY has got too many offers in HFM, which IMO should have gone the way of Suresh Waadkar, Bhupinder, Jagjit Singh and Talat Aziz at that point of time. And not to speak of Manna Dey himself, whose voice was in fine fettle at that time.
- From: RJ Uncomparable (@ 205.188.208.37)
on: Sun Oct 6 11:45:58 EDT 2002
RJ was not prolific at all, maybe 50 films? But, look at the tunes that is what I am talkin about. his tunes usually are totally different from all other composers. If you listen to Sunayna and O Goriya Rein once again, you'll see what I mean. and, in those few films he has given such landmark tunes like ' Geet Gata Chal Utatha" Le Jayenge, Gori Tera Gaon, Aaj Se Pehle (what a simple tune). Do Panchi, Jo Raah Chuni - No other composer in the history of Indian film music at the national level has that many songs still remaining in memory and as benchmarks of perfect compositions, hummable without feeling stale. Even Salilda did not compose that kind of impossible tunes (i am very familiar with most songs of Salilda), maybe extraordinarily melodious but not in that class. I don't know if IR has composed those type of RJ songs (if you study the compositions you'll see that RJ has not a single loose note flying around in almost all his songs. ) Absolutely tightly structured tunes. (as i said, Karthik Raja has one to his credit for TFM, but not that exciting as an RJ composition. I don't know if MSV has done one.) There'r somany other virtues in RJ compositions. And, I am not saying IR is not ways ahead, i am asking if you found the brilliance in the RJ tune and if IR has any such highly crafty tunes to his credit. However, in the instrumental part, RJ ocassionally surpassed IR!!
about singers dominating a region, it is usually true, politics plays a very important role in anything. In Bombay, it is very worse.
- From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63)
on: Sun Oct 6 13:02:20 EDT 2002
When the older sister cannot handle the talent and popularity of her young sister,and goes all out to destroy her career, it proves that politics is not just based on ethnicity or race - it is also based on
insecurity and a complete lack of ethics. Some family value that!
And a denial repeated again and again does not make the truth go away either.
- From: Cinema Virumbi (@ 203.197.220.219)
on: Mon Oct 7 02:39:51 EDT 2002
Digression!
Naaz,
Pl. see my lighthearted comment on 'Kumdam' fonts in the 'Varalakshmi' thread!
- From: OISG (@ 193.188.97.152)
on: Mon Oct 7 04:03:29 EDT 2002
Generously used ..misused ..abused..
So much to say on the phrase "No other Music director".It won t be surprise if someone uses the same phrase to praise Sirpi,SA Rajkumar,Bappi Lahari,Veda,Deva ... in future.Then only we will all know the levels to which eulogising has plummetted.
RJ s fan
RJ had some simple great tunes.Gori tera IS ONE OF the great tunes.But don t you feel the usage of the phrase is a bit too much.In your efforts ,just see the collateral damage you have done to MDs from Naushad to KVM.
- From: Venkatesh (@ 212.72.11.66)
on: Mon Oct 7 07:08:11 EDT 2002
Naaz/av,
Is Ravindra Jain the composer for the tele-serial Ramayana of Ramanand Sagar?
- From: OISG (@ 217.17.235.2)
on: Mon Oct 7 07:47:45 EDT 2002
Yes.I think Geeth gatha chal was a Ramanad sagar movie for which Jain composed.
- From: Cinema Virumbi (@ 203.197.220.219)
on: Mon Oct 7 08:55:32 EDT 2002
Friends,
Some of my North Indian friends call RJ as the 'Surdas' of this century! Surdas was a famous poet, around Tulsidas' time, born somewhere at Sihi, near today's Faridabad and was blind!
I like the following songs of RJ:
sun saahibaa sun! pyaar ki dhun!- Ram teri Ganga maili
chittiye nee dard bhara....leja leja sandesa soniyaarda!
Main hoon khush rang hina!
- both from Henna
- From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63)
on: Mon Oct 7 09:42:16 EDT 2002
OISG -
Geet Gaata Chal was directed by Hiren Nag. The lyricist and the MD for the film was Ravindra Jain.
CV -
The kobam of Kumudham did not last...The font worked!! :-)
- From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63)
on: Mon Oct 7 10:32:11 EDT 2002
Ravindra Jain, Jaidev, Raghunath Seth - All fine MDs, and also MDs who did not sell-out to the Commercial impetus. Even the much maligned (and sometimes deserving of the barbs) Bhappi Lahiri, in the early days of his career offered some enchanting melodies.
His song with KJY "Maana Ho Thum Behad Haseen" from Toote Khiloney was superb. Ditto for "Saiyan Bina Ghar Soona Soona" from Aangan Ki Kali (*ing Lakshmi and Rakesh Roshan.) RJ was the only MD who worked exclusively with Hemlata (except for the RK films which had LM.) and gave her some of his best compositions in Dulhan Wahi Jo Piya Man Bhaaye (Nee Oru Maharani - the precursor for Pretty Woman) Akhiyon Ke Jharokhon Se (indianised Love Story) Chitchor and Paheli.
Jaidev was Bharathi Raaja's choice for his hindi Solwa Sawan (16 Vayadhinile) where all the songs were sung by KJY and Vani Jairam. Most of RJ films were with the Rajshri Films banner.
The one common factor (if it can be said) between RJ and IR was the "indian" ethos of their songs. RJ was given to simplicity with an "earthen" (man vasanai'nnu sollalam) in his compositions. Both musicians are known for their celebration of much neglected Folk and Aboriginal traditions in film music. (Shiv-Hari tried the same with "Lamhe" to mixed effect.)
- From: av (@ 132.206.124.180)
on: Mon Oct 7 13:15:31 EDT 2002
>>When the older sister cannot handle the talent and popularity of her young sister,and goes all out to destroy her career, it proves that politics is not just based on ethnicity or race - it is also based on insecurity and a complete lack of ethics.>some family value that!>And a denial repeated again and again does not make the truth go away either. <<
An accusation repeated again and again doesnt do anything either. Why are people obsessed with maligning and slandering other people's character?
I also love the way my remaks about Jayachandran, Manna Dey, SPB not making a splash in Malayalam films was ignored! But that's okay.
- From: av (@ 132.206.124.180)
on: Mon Oct 7 13:16:55 EDT 2002
(Reposting...wonder where some sentences disappeared.)
------------------------------------------------
"When the older sister cannot handle the talent and popularity of her young sister,and goes all out to destroy her career, it proves that politics is not just based on ethnicity or race - it is also based on insecurity and a complete lack of ethics."
-------------------------------------------------
Naaz,
*Just FYI - Asha has more songs than Lata in Hindi films in the decade of the 50s. So when was Asha's career "destroyed"!
*I would also like if you count the number of duets the two sisters sang in the 50s decade!
*Also try to count the total number of songs Asha has sung for Madan Mohan, an MD with which Lata has had very special relations. And again, you may take either the 50s decade or the 60s decade or both. The truth is - Lata has sung just 30 songs more for Madan Mohan. And there is a long list of films, where Asha has been the lead female vocalist. And I mean ghazals and classical songs (not cabarets) when I talk of "lead female vocalist".
*How about repeating the same exercise with Roshan, with Chitragupt and with L-P, all whose favourite was Lata?
-----------------------------
"some family value that!"
-----------------------------
The same "family value" was what made Lata strive hard for her family when she was hardly 13. You may want to ask Asha herself about that. The same family value has given way to several charity concerts, to one of India's finest hospitals. Its the same value of the family that makes Asha and Lata hold each other in highest esteem. Its also the same family value that makes music directors (and thats people like Naushad, Jaidev, the Burmans, Salilda, Ghulam Mohammed, Khaiyam, Ravindra Jain, Raghunath Seth,Hemant Kumar,Anil Viswaas, C Ramchandra, Roshan...all very fine MDs call the two sisters their favourite singers.) Its also the same family value that makes Suman, Sudha, Kavitha, Alka, Sadhana, Shamshaad, Surayya, Raajkumaari, and many more have fond memories of their work with the sisters. And these were all contemporaries of Lata and Asha at some point of time or the other.
A touch of modesty or open-mindedness mightn't hurt, I suppose. And addressing me by name directly, shouldn't either.
>>And a denial repeated again and again does not make the truth go away either. <<
An accusation repeated again and again doesnt do anything either. Why are people obsessed with maligning and slandering other people's character?
I also love the way my remaks about Jayachandran, Manna Dey, SPB not making a splash in Malayalam films was ignored! But that's okay.
- From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63)
on: Mon Oct 7 13:49:21 EDT 2002
AVR -
Just put a sock in it, k?
AB has gone on record about her didi's tactics. You weren't even born then, I am sure. Now, they've kissed and made up, and that is quite alright. OPN was the only MD who stood by Asha, and if not for him, she would not have got to where she is today. And that is where those songs you mention came from - all the Shammi Kapoor and Dev Anand films scored by OPN (without even a single song by Lata.)
Read up some film history, guy. Read Raju Bharatan's biography on LM - it is all there. Of course, anybody who talks about the Mangeshkar monopoly is a liar. Only you know the facts (wonder how? Were you part of the HFM industry in the 50s,60s or 70s?
Count the number of voices here who have talked about the mageshkar monopoly. Now count the voices who have said that is a fabrication? That will tell you something.
Your remarks are piffle. Ahistoric, and if you keep at it, you will talk yourself into irrelevance (if you haven't already.)
You have gone on record here degrading national treasures like MS Subbulakshmi. You call KJY "crap" in the above post. Anybody who is from the south and sings is Hindi is "accented" or "terrible" or both.
People here are perhaps polite, and have welcomed you despite such disrespect. But in my vocabulary there is one word that sums up your attitude toward southerners: Racist.
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