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Where did Hey Ram and Sirai Chaalai' music fail in relation to the epic Lagaan

Topic started by rf (@ 172.164.126.190) on Sun Oct 21 02:08:51 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Lagaan is a must see, though it did not come from Chennai, it is a must see to understand so many things about what TFM and TFilms in general have missed out in catering to a global audience. An actor who gave us Appoorva Sahotharargal with Ilayaraja Hey Ram was a big mistake and lacking in thinktank. Kamalhasan depended on Hype for that abstract storyline to sell. Sirai Chaalai was too stuffed i believe with elements that it lacked proper perspective and its songs were just ordinary attempts. A period film should have the type of music ARR created for Lagaan. Amazing stuff! (IMHO, Lagaan has become my favorite film in all aspects (screenplay, acting, story, casting and the bgm and songs)while Apoorva Sahotharargal is my second favorite...) I am saying that IR should come out of his mould and look at a world audience in taking up assignments like period films and be open to suggestions/criticisms/information and keep eyes and ears to the ground. IMHO, directors prpoducers are shunning him because audience has changed but IR cares only for Mozart and Bach and not for contemporary ideas. Lagaan is a good lesson for how Marudanayagam's music should be composed. I know HCIRF cannot accept this, it will take time as it took me (SuperFanofIR) to learn.

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Responses:

• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Sun Oct 21 03:00:23 EDT 2001
  
  rf:
  
  What have u analyzed in sirai chaalai ? I hardly see movies except those rich in story and score. But I saw siraichaalai atleast 4-5 times for the various aspects. If u want to praise lagaan that is fine ( actually the songs of lagaan are not some of ARR's best ever..it is hyped too..a trite song like radha kyon na jale if can be considered a masterpiece, god save music interests). And how is it that u came to so abrupt a conclusion that all "period" music MUST be like lagaan ?
  
  IR is not restricted to Mozart and Bach. Listen to avathaaram's BG score / guru's BG score / anjali's and kaala paani's. And pray tell me how "contemporary" ideas can be implemented for "period" films ? Sounds anachronistic.
  
  
• From: rf (@ 64.12.107.47) on: Sun Oct 21 04:10:18 EDT 2001
  
  MS, i realized the anachronism. but, i what meant was the style of presentation. audience seek more restraint, simplicity yet sophistication (distinguish this from class, creativity and complexity) in their demands. Presenting songs like our tried and tired short pallavi's meandering charanams with only some great work in interlude is not what contemporary music is all about. I am saying that even today I have not listened to Kalapani's songs more than a few times wondering why IR wasted opprotunity to explore different styles in such a magnum opus. Could be one important reason: Kalapani was first offered to ARR, (even Lajja was). BYW, listen to Lagaan songs again in the movie itself and compare how our traditional song structures would have made the movie seem stupid music wise! Again, IR's score for Guru was complex and too many notes. I am calling for measured and drawn out composing like the ones IR did.... hmmmm not do, but ARR is doing and still nobody gets including YSR and KR!!!!
  
  
• From: yaaro (@ 195.93.33.184) on: Sun Oct 21 06:14:28 EDT 2001
  
  rf,
  BGM in lagaan-again the same old story of songs repeated for the bgm.the same old ARR style of bgm making.
  //Kalapani was first offered to ARR, (even Lajja was).//
  this is the first time in the past 6 years i am hearing about this scoop.what is your source.from the reaction of few viewers bgm for lajja seems to have been quite good-not having seen the movie i cannot comment on it(you seem to have judged kaalapaani without seeing the movie)
  //Again, IR's score for Guru was complex and too many notes.//
  seen the movie amadeus?where the emperor gets told off by mozart for using exactly the same words-what do you mean?too many notes-IR will use as many notes as he wants.his songs have been as simple as nitham nitham nelluchoru-where the only instrument used was a morsing(you can tell me how many notes it can make)to complicated ones such as rakkamma.
  btw,
  what is different about lagaan song structure-please tell us.
  //A period film should have the type of music ARR created for Lagaan//
  i think you are not correct-the songs of lagaan will fit comfortably in any modern hindi movie.take nayagan-see the songs AND the bgm change when times change.,
  
  
• From: vch (@ 61.1.208.50) on: Sun Oct 21 10:13:29 EDT 2001
  
  lagaan is a useless movie.there are many unbelievable scenes during the match.comparing
  it with heyram is an absurd thing.
  and the bgm was just ordinary.it can't even come
  near heyram.heyram had 100% reality in all scenes.
  Lagaanla nallaa kaadhula poova sutharanga adhu
  poi nalla padamaam.it is just an entertaining
  movie that's all nothing great abt it.
  
  
• From: siva (@ 210.186.52.118) on: Sun Oct 21 10:19:07 EDT 2001
  
  in siraichalai, IR gave us music that is a uniques blend of styles in various scene... a few scenes that i remember from that movie which had great great great bgm :
  
  1) the train scene where tabu chases the train when mohanlal is taken away to andaman.. a classic viollin piece, which potrays the mood of crying...
  
  2) the scenes where tabu and the white doctor spend some time together.. jovial music with both indian and western piece.. the music here is very jingle like, but yet beautiful and describes the scenes very well..
  
  3) the first intro of the ship which carries the inmate to andaman... superb photography by santosh sivan also... hear the music carefully..
  
  4)the scene where andaman is traced to the map somewhere in the beginning of the movie...
  
  5) the central theme song which potrays the sadness, i cant hum in this board, but it is everywhere in the movie..
  
  6)the scene where vinith goes to andaman to search for his uncle mohanlal.. he goes to the jail foyer, there is shouts of vande mataram when the iron gate open.. immediately after those shouts, listen to the strings and winds piece.. gorgeous piece..
  
  7)all the songs are masterpieces in this movie..
  
  8)lots morei cant remember, but will refresh after watching the movie again..
  
  even technically i think priyadarshan and santosh sivan has done a geat great job.. i am not saying lagaan is bad... it is good too, but i dont find it better than siraichalai.. sorry, that is my personal opinion..
  the only mistake i can find in siraichalai is in the sutrum sudharvili song where one of the background dancer's hat fall down and he clumsily try to get it back on his head.. i wonder how come priyadarshan let this shot in...
  
  and please , although i am a HCIRF, i still love the music by rahman.. i think he is a genius too.. so please dont embarass rahman by saying that lagaan is his best effort... i think he has done lots and lots more better work than lagaan.. the theme song for Bombay is much much better than the theme of lagaan
  
  
• From: vch (@ 61.1.208.50) on: Sun Oct 21 10:27:48 EDT 2001
  
  siva,
  i agree with you.i also like arr's music
  very much.in fact i have almost all his cassettes.
  but i can never ever accept that lagaan is a great effort.it is just ordinary that's all.
  in fact i saw the movie just for his sake.
  as usual he has used the songs' music in the bgm.
  It can never ever be compared with heyram
  or siraichaalai bgm.the movie is a hit because
  it is an entertainer that's all.
  
  
• From: Jinjenaka Palayam Mani (@ 210.186.103.98) on: Sun Oct 21 12:22:34 EDT 2001
  
  Hey ram and sirai chalai is far better then Lagaan .........U Know Guys the one human being can make we all cry or happy in BGM that is Meastro Ilayaraja plz do not compare with the two Genius.....we have.
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.187) on: Sun Oct 21 13:23:22 EDT 2001
  
  Come on Guys,
  
  Lagaan had great BGM. See the film atleast once (means...with out any prejudice). He has used less of songs BGM. He give eleven diff. BGM for each players. Lagaan is an epic in IF history.
  Generations will remember this film. Great team work.
  
  But...But....Hey Ram's BGM is probably the best among Top 5 BGMs I have witnessed (But I don't agree with the songs in that films)
  Hey Ram's BGM stands out when compared to Lagaan.
  Lagaan wins the two as a complete music film.
  Songs and BGM in lagaan convey the period and mood of the film.
  Lagaan is History.
  No other south Indian personality had been ever involved in an major way on a film like this which is considered as a stupendous success next only to Sholey.
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.187) on: Sun Oct 21 13:24:09 EDT 2001
  
  All the Above IMHO.
  
  
• From: FARUS (@ 210.186.28.21) on: Sun Oct 21 14:22:29 EDT 2001
  
  ILAIYARAJA COPIES MUSIC FROM A.R RAHMAN
  
  
• From: Jag (@ 35.9.40.177) on: Sun Oct 21 14:59:14 EDT 2001
  
  farus .... fartus
  
  rf, Why?
  we have had too much of this comparison business.
  if you want to praise ARR's music, you can post it in some relevant thread. And you don't need to put down IR's music.
  
  
  Jag
  
  
  
  
• From: rf (@ 172.173.33.224) on: Sun Oct 21 15:42:07 EDT 2001
  
  Yaaro and other friends, I was trying to get pointers in here regarding the effective use of songs by ARR to enhance the mood, the 'period', the theme and so on of Lagaan. ARR's musical syntax is very different from any other film composer of this world, including that of IR's. ARR's style is very reminiscent of Rogers (was he not the tunesmith of the duo?) of R&Hammerstein of 'Sound of Music' fame. In fact, ARR is more prolific than anyone in music history for that powerful style of music. In my years of listening experience, I find ARR is the most incredible, most effective (IR is still the most 'fascinating' ever, but not that effective in the songs) composer. For one reason, fewer notes in composing a tune, and ARR's tunes are more brilliant than the best I' ve heard. I would say IR, Mozart and Bach (too many notes, too much music) as one and the same people in different time periods - too all knowing, consummate, exciting and varied. But ARR is different from everyone. - in classical music parallel, I would say Beethoven is his older image. In modern times Rogers & Hammerstein. Coming back to the songs, see Lagaan again and see how ARR is reaching out to all sections of music lovers with his musical syntax. I feel ARR is setting a lot of standards for musicals for period films. His power is in his simple songs that flow with the storyline and do not seem separate from the movie for a movie like Lagaan. ARR's BGM is not as fascinating as IR, definitely not. But, definitely simpler, fluid, lighter, appropriate and really stretched out with a scope for all notes in his compostion to stand out. Look at Lagaan's title theme. I am very happy to say that it compares with Lajja's opening theme by IR. In fact, ARR was more brilliant by all means and that too this was not even hyped at all and i bet ARR used a small chamber orchestra with french horn to bring out such an effective opening score! I must say, we are going to see more brilliant films like Lagaan and we need more open-minded composers. IR is there but he will make his music to his liking and does not care for the film makers and the audience. It so seems that KR and YSR have got that too. But, ARR understands his audience and film makers. That is what counts today. Not Mozarts and Bachs. I regret saying this, But while I feel happy to see ARR doing wonders, it is sad to see IR not being flexible, when he had the chance to compose period musical songs in Sirai Chaalai, Hey Ram and Guru!
  
  
• From: yaaro (@ 172.189.146.110) on: Sun Oct 21 16:02:00 EDT 2001
  
  rf
  why did you go and start the same topic in raajangahm?I sent something about ARR in rahmanonline-that never saw the light of the day.it is different typing out your thoughts in a common forum like newtfmpage-but raajangahm?i think you need your head examined.
  //I would say IR, Mozart and Bach (too many notes, too much music) as one and the same people in different time periods - too all knowing, consummate, exciting and varied. But ARR is different from everyone. - in classical music parallel, I would say Beethoven is his older image//
  big words indeed-one reason beethoven is my favorite composer is because of what i perceive as the complexity of his music.if you think his music is simple-i do not know which compositions you have been listening.
  //it is sad to see IR not being flexible, when he had the chance to compose period musical songs in Sirai Chaalai, Hey Ram and Guru//
  i do not know what is your problem-all I have heard are praises for these scores.
  finally,i still think typing out these thoughts in raajangahm-you must be crazy!
  
  

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