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CounterPoint

Topic started by Srikanth (@ 207.122.201.68) on Tue Aug 25 13:42:31 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

What is so Great about Counter pointing ?

My Best counterpoint TFM composers
1 MSV.
2 IR.
3 Karthick Raja.
4 SG.

Shall we discuss , (taking one song at a time).

Srikanth.D

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Responses:

• From: Ravi (@ envy.cs.umass.edu) on: Tue Aug 25 14:45:07 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth: Isn't a description of what is counterpoint needed here?
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-232.il.us.ibm.net) on: Tue Aug 25 21:25:46 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  Counter Point :
  Example in Real audio, I have played a counter point from Raja, hear and get the idea of counter point.
  
  http://jsri.fsn.net/counter.htm
  
  
  If any questions , I am ready
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: bull (@ horus.erlm.siemens.de) on: Wed Aug 26 01:07:51 EDT 1998
  
  For the sake of us unfortunate ones who both dont know what counterpoint is and dont have hardware for audio, is there any text explanation somewhere? Or can you provide it yourself? Please!
  
  
• From: kiruba (@ slipper.watcom.on.ca) on: Wed Aug 26 01:10:19 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth, You are right MSV, a pioneer in this, should be on top of the list. I think IR considers as MSV as great mainly for this reason, I think. IR,
  like you have rightly observed heavily makes use of this. I like IR mainly for this. But only recently discovered this in MSV. I was listening to PB
  Sreenivas hits (mostly by MSV-Ramamurthy, some by KVM) yesterday and really enjoyed it, (even though it does not sound so good on my
  system :-))
  
  
• From: bull (@ horus.erlm.siemens.de) on: Wed Aug 26 01:13:11 EDT 1998
  
  
  
  Or maybe it is explainable only by listening to something! Anyway, when I tried the site given by you I got a message This document is not a
  RealAudio document I dont know if this is because of something not present in my machine!
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ sf-dnpqm-068.compuserve.net) on: Wed Aug 26 03:33:32 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth..thanks for enlightening me. I was looking for a word to describe this.
  One of my most favourite songs with counterpoints "sevvaanathil oru natshathiram" by TMS & PS (violin). Another one "Chittukuruvi mutham koduthu". IR too has done great work in this.
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Wed Aug 26 10:49:50 EDT 1998
  
  1. Second interlude guitar (acoustic and electric) phrase from the song "Devan Koil Deepam Ondru". S.Janaki version is in stereo. Surendar/Janaki version is in mono.
  
  2. "Ninaivo Oru Paravai" pallavi.
  
  3. "Paatu thalaivan paadinaal paatu thaan". Last phrase of second interlude. Just brilliant.
  
  An more and more and more.
  
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Wed Aug 26 11:32:15 EDT 1998
  
  A good site for counterpoint technical details
  
  " target="_top">http://www.infobahnos.com/~yvesg/cotp1a.htm">
  
  Anand Mahadevan
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Aug 26 13:17:18 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth: That was and excellent way of explaining Counterpoint, by listening.....I never realised that 'Mandram Vandhu Thendral' from Mouna Ragam had this in it....I'll keep a look out in other songs. thanks for that
  
  Anand: Thanks for that information on Counterpoint.
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Wed Aug 26 14:35:18 EDT 1998
  
  Anand: Thanks for the counterpoint pointer. Looks good. I have to get into it right away.
  
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Wed Aug 26 14:36:12 EDT 1998
  
  Geetha: Srikanth' sample piece was from Anjali and not Mouna Ragam.
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Wed Aug 26 15:23:20 EDT 1998
  
  This is another good site for western theory enlightnment.
  
  http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/place/aai26/
  
  
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Wed Aug 26 16:43:46 EDT 1998
  
  Anand: the second site you mentioned is too good and has good links. I have no words to thank you.
  
  
  
• From: abc (@ m35.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Thu Aug 27 00:21:14 EDT 1998
  
  What to respond ??????
  
  
• From: xyz (@ m35.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Thu Aug 27 00:22:46 EDT 1998
  
  Respond something na!
  
  
• From: Sankaran (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Thu Aug 27 01:43:44 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth,
  That was great and enlightening. I've read somewhere that in the history of western classical music, at some point, polyphonic music came into vogue. Polyphonic music is one where multiple instruments play different notes, but at the same time, producing a great synergy. Counterpoint seems to be closely linked to this. IR is a master at this. Most of his songs have counterpoints, many times created by more than 2 melodies played at the same time. The way IR uses his bass guitar is also a case in point. One example which springs to mind is the pallavi of the song "poomalaye tholseravaa".
  This seems to be an interesting thread. Hope there are more contributions here.
  
  
• From: yvs mani (@ hub.nic.in) on: Thu Aug 27 02:53:54 EDT 1998
  
  I think the song "Paruva kalangalil kanavu" from Mudupani is another example. (Am I correct????)
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Aug 27 06:02:51 EDT 1998
  
  Sridhar: Which song from 'Anjali' was it?
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.114) on: Thu Aug 27 10:37:15 EDT 1998
  
  Geetha:Mottai Maadi Mottai Maadi (prelude)
  
  
• From: kiruba (@ slipper.watcom.on.ca) on: Mon Aug 31 12:48:29 EDT 1998
  
  Looks like counterpoint is something alien to Indian music(??). Who used it first in Indian music ? Not just tamil.
  
  (I noticed IRs bass guitar only after I bought a good stereo system in the US :-(. I guess that guys music is chest of hidden treasures !!)
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Tue Sep 1 16:18:38 EDT 1998
  
  Counterpoint can be heard in Hindhi music as early as 1950s. Sure, it is alien to Indian music.
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ hil-dnppw-038.oh.compuserve.net) on: Wed Sep 2 01:52:44 EDT 1998
  
  Kiruba,
  Hard to tell who brought it first...I guess Salil Choudhry,Shanker-Jaikishan or S.D.Burman. You could hear counter-points in their songs released in the 50's
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ socks9d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Wed Sep 2 12:55:21 EDT 1998
  
  Kiruba:
  From a sometime bass guitarist - NANRI ! IR's bass scores are sometimes more imaginative than the tune itself !
  
  
• From: badri raghavan (@ 206.103.12.125) on: Fri Sep 4 08:02:53 EDT 1998
  
  hi srikanth,
  
  is counterpoint the same as "seconds", "thirds" et al?
  
  just to elaborate, would you consider the phase in Jeans song "poovukkul oLindrukum" where unnikrishnan sings the firsts and the seconds and mixed together sounds good.
  
  one other instance, is the song from the movie "aarilindu arubadu varai" spb-sj duet "kanmaniye kaadal enbadu karpanaiyo" where raja has used seconds in the charanams lavishly.
  
  srikanth! i would like to hear from you further.
  
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Fri Sep 4 11:16:21 EDT 1998
  
  Thanks Sridhar for the Mottamadi song.
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ sf-dnpqq-007.compuserve.net) on: Sat Sep 5 04:15:51 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth..I have the same doubt as Badri Raghavan. Have you heard the counterpoint (I think so) in "Aarodum mannil endrum" from Pazhani. It is a folk song from the movie "Pazhani". TMS and PBS sing the Pallavi and Seergazhi hums in the background.
  
  
• From: kiruba (@ slipper.watcom.on.ca) on: Sun Sep 6 18:13:20 EDT 1998
  
  Srinath,
  I am now tuned to the bass guitar in IRs songs. Its a pity he's got too much of gimmicks in his new songs (KM, Poonthottam). Hopefully, he will stick to his strengths and not swayed by ARRs influence.
  (I still noticed some bass guitar in the new songs)
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy2.nyc.prodigy.net) on: Mon Sep 7 23:01:56 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  Counter Point is more towards western classical music, It has be composed with proper harmony.
  Where us the voice having counter point becomes a harmony or chorus.
  
  Seconds is a kinda of harmony singing. for eg:
  if the melody is C D E --- the harmony will be
  E F G. These are called seconds (second note from the note), there are 5ths - Arr uses many 5ths.
  
  Counter point is a score that is played over (under) a melody,
  In raja kaiyavecha - the second bgm has a 3 part counter point.
  1. Violins : plays the lead part,
  2. Viola : plays a conter pointer (in half the timing of above)
  3. Cello and double bass playes a chromatic scales progression which is twice the melody length.
  ie :
  if the Melody plays notes as halfs per bar
  the 1st counter point plays in 8ths and 16ths per bar,the 2nd counter point - double bass plays 1 full note per bar.
  
  (Also hear, MSV uses counter point in pachaiki muthucharam - an accordian pieces, that crosses over the melody often)
  
  Konjom thala suthal than , try to go thru the webpages on counter point, I will try to post some real audio samples.
  
  
  Srikanth
  
  
  
  
• From: Neels (@ 202.54.127.53) on: Tue Sep 8 09:38:49 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth's Real Audio Example:
  
  The example you illustrated was from Motta Madi Motta Madi (Anjali). I think most of the songs in Anjali have brilliant counterpoint usage. Anjali Anjali especially.
  
  Neels
  
  
• From: kiruba (@ slipper.watcom.on.ca) on: Wed Sep 9 12:03:06 EDT 1998
  
  So what is polyphony ? I read that it is another voice singing a different melody along with the main one. I think i have heard something like this in IRs music.
  
  
• From: Srinivas (@ pup36.stanford.edu) on: Tue Dec 15 15:38:09 EST 1998
  
  Srikanth:
  What is the difference between COUNTERPOINT and INVERSE COUNTERPOINT?? IR, in one of his interviews said that "inverse counterpoint" is very difficult to compose- and he praises JS Bach for being able to compose them with ease.
  Are there any examples of inverse counterpoints in TFM??
  
  Can the first interlude piece from "Azhagu" song of Pudhiya Mugam be considered a counter-point?
  The piece starts with an Aalapana. A violin is introduced over the aalapana creating a kind of dichotomy between the violin and the vocal.
  
  Thanks in advance,
  Srinivas
  
  
• From: onnumae puriyale (@ global25.citicorp.com) on: Tue Dec 15 16:17:18 EST 1998
  
  Innum konjam vilakki chollungappa, counterpoint-na ennanu. The link www.infobahnos.com/~yvesg/cotp1a.htm doesn't work.
  
  
  

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