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Raja's theoritical Approach:

Topic started by D.Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-226.il.us.ibm.net) on Sun Oct 4 11:31:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Raja's theoritical Approach

Yesterday I was in a telephonic discussion with Shashi - (also a DF'er) about Raja's decline in the market.

Essence of our discussion:

We all know Raja writes his score without touching any instrument. This has paved a way for Raja to become very alogorithamic. He is forced into this as he is not hearing it, meaning his scores are very theoritical. A good western classical musician will predict Raja's score after hearing few bars.
He has to change this type of composing, he has to compose something new using his HEART instead of his BRAIN . We were able to calculate the bar lengths of the counter points and BGM that he would place, everything Proved to be very very theoritical approach.
Though theoritically scores are complicated, over a period of time it starts sounding the same for a musical illitrate (masses)

Many of his greatest fans are here this DF (including me), as a responsible fan we can find more about this and convey the message to him somehow.


Statutory Warning: This topic is not to hurt Raja's ablity, there is no doubt in his ablity .I know the fact writing theoritical music is not easy. Theoritically anything is complicated.


D.Srikanth

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Responses:

• From: The Fan (@ spider-tr023.proxy.aol.com) on: Sun Oct 4 13:06:38 EDT 1998
  
  Raja himself has said that it is all permuatation and combination with the seven notes. Instead, why can't he try permuatation and combination of a different pattern altogether. Why not go totaly and out and out theoretical instead of squeezing the udder dry? after a certain point, the heart cannot produce any more feelings, so we sould be lucky IR has got other methods to please us. But IR should try different and exotic sounds or patterns than the ones he is twisiting and playig around these days. We should request IR to go Europop styles or try genres like latin american tangos or other non-Indian stuff, if he feels that he has given enough of the Indian melodies and rhythms. In my opinion IR has done more than a 1000 times than we want!!
  
  
• From: The Fan (@ spider-tr023.proxy.aol.com) on: Sun Oct 4 13:41:55 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth, theoretical does not necessarily mean thay they can become predictable. No way, IR has always been a human computer, now the computer is evolving into a higher level of programming strength. The chip in IR's brain is now independent of his heart and soul as the chip is what is called operating on the principle of self evolution and ability to operate on its own. IR has been doing this for some years now and it is not new anymore. The thing you see is lack of spontaniety and surprises. Right now, IR does suprprise you but in a lesser surprising way than before.
  
  It is scary to know that IR's musically emotional pot is empty, and now he is operating from his brain only without ODBC connectivity to his heart and soul. He is in a post folk age and living in the sounds of the 90s that is only sounding like music made for machines!!!!
  
  However, this is the capacity that has enabled IR to compose Symphony. Which all major western composers adopted. Mozart was more from the heart, unlike Bach or Beethoven who worked like IR!!! I feel we are going to see a lot more symphonies in the year 2000 and after from IR.
  
  God Bless IR the Supernatural Computer!
  
  
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-187.il.us.ibm.net) on: Sun Oct 4 20:07:31 EDT 1998
  
  
  I feel we are going to see a lot more symphonies in the year 2000 and after from IR.
  -- first one is itself we dont know it is there or not.
  Fan! Pleaseopen your eyes,Ears etc, analyze what I have told about instead of once again Raja Pallavi.
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Sun Oct 4 21:07:49 EDT 1998
  
  Hi everybody
  
  It may be unfair that after my discussion with Srikanth, I should try to enter this thread and comment. But I will try to be as fair as possible.
  
  Firstly "The Fan" is seeing the light. He is right when he says--one does not get surprised as much as one did when Raja first started.
  
  This is exactly the crux of the matter. The question is not about the ability to compose theoritically. The question is, does composing theoritically (algorythmically) breed monotony.
  My opinion is already reflected in the "essence of our discussion" as quoted by Srikanth.
  
  Now is there a solution. Certainly. I can atleast think of one. I would like to give an example before I give my solution.
  
  Lets say you start an obstacle course race. First few times you fumble, try a couple of different strategies and take a long time in finishing the race. However if asked to repeat numerous times you are less likely to be spontaneous as you have learned how to complete the course with the least hassle(you are more efficient). Now, when you think you have mastered the obstacle course lets say you are given a awkward peice of log weighing 30lbs, slippery on one side and kind of sharp on the other and has a serrated margin somewhere in the middle. You are asked to complete the same obstacle course. Its is likely that you cannot your original path (lets for example sake atleast assume so), since you had figured out the most efficent route but that was when you were alone; now you will have to find alternative ways to carry your load and still finish the course--isn't it.
  
  How the hell does this example fit into my solution for Raja to increase surprises/spontaineity. If Raja would start composing for prewritten GOOD lyrics, he will automatically find himself with awkward words with various shapes and sizes and he would find it challenging to incorporate them into his musical thoughts. Here I am certain that he WILL DEFINITELY come up with innovative ways of solving the obstacles and the end result is we get to enjoy more surprises. There may be other solutions and other DFers should continue this discussion.
  
  I personally believe his best compostions(more surprises) are the ones he had composed for prewritten lyrics.
  
  Bye for now
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ elroy.cs.wisc.edu) on: Sun Oct 4 23:41:10 EDT 1998
  
  I don't agree with this "Algorithmic stuff" - if IR's compositions were algorithmic, well, ten he should be giving equally good songs/colorations for all movies. But that is not the case - he gives more sophisticated and better compositions for better directors.
  
  Another point against this idea is this: I have heard some pieces of Maestro that are stunningly different(and great of course - even violin shrieks can be different :)))).
  Examples:(I'm sorry, I can more readily think of examples in Telugu) Gopemma chetullo goru mudda from the movie "Preminchu pelladu" has a great veena interlude and it is obvious that it is a first and last time kind of piece; the inspiration of the moment made him compose it that way. There are similar interludes in the song "Manchu kurise velalo" from the movie "Abhinandana". I'm unable to think right away of any examples in Tamil, but I'm sure there will be plenty.
  
  I agree that this "algorithmic stuff" may be true in many cases. But I think Srikanth and his friend have only considered a small sample. IR's volume of work makes it impossible to exhaust the whole set of good songs he has given, I'm sure.
  
  Also, if it were as easy as Srikanth makes it out be, we should be flooded with Rajas in the market today - any person well versed in WC should be able to become a Raja. Well, Srikanth, why don't you become a Raja yourself? Given that you have some expereince in WC and that you are able to predict his music, you should be able to compose equally sophisticated numbers. (this is in jest, don't take it seriously)
  
  
• From: Hard Core IR Fan (Srinath) (@ 171-47-105.ipt.aol.com) on: Mon Oct 5 01:22:48 EDT 1998
  
  If Raaja had an algorithm on hand that would hold the entire film-going populace of Tamil Nadu, spellbound for 20 years, give the man some credit for getting something right.
  
  Srikanth & Shashi, since you feel you can easily predict His (the Upper Case 'H' is not a typo) music, why don't you share the formula with us. What is it ? (a + b)^2 = a^2 + b^2 + 2ab ? Come on guys, you have a lot of explaining to do here.
  
  Shashi: Where is the light that 'The Fan' saw ? In your hands ? No mister, it is in your 'OPINION' !
  
  Go right ahead ! Reveal all of IR's secrets. Srikanth, please publish the songs for IR's next 10 movies in your web site.
  
  Sorry guys. You caught me in a very nasty, very 'tough customer' mood. But I regret to say that it is also a very candid and forthright mood of mine. No kid gloves here. Throw sh.t and it is going come flying right back at you.
  
  
• From: ANOTHER HARDCORE IR (@ 129.107.55.199) on: Mon Oct 5 02:09:58 EDT 1998
  
  Well said Srinath and SPK. If you can predict and if u have the abilitity do so, then go ahead try your best to become like him. AS Srinath said, if you can predict, why dont you publish some songs.
  I think most people can predict other's (like ARR, DEVA) songs. That depends on the Western hits.
  
  Thanks,
  ANOTHER IR FAN
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-205.il.us.ibm.net) on: Mon Oct 5 08:42:01 EDT 1998
  
  
  "Go right ahead ! Reveal all of IR's secrets. Srikanth, please publish the songs for IR's next 10 movies in your web site. "
  - Yes, I will publish it and predict the scores,see it for yourself soon.
  
  Srinath and KAushik - you guys cry like taking away a lolly pop from a 3 year old kid what else could I say, open your eyes , come out and listen.
  
  "Ingepoi idhe poten paru" I have to curse myself.
  You guys are just fit to be fans and just fans. Music is not for you people.
  Srinath:
  I never expected this from Srinath (do you really know to play music)
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Gopal (@ 20.knoxville-01.tn.dial-access.att.net) on: Mon Oct 5 10:06:26 EDT 1998
  
  Folks
  
  Algorithm? Its not the algo thats required, but an inspiring situation thats needed. What have the producers, directors of our place brought in to Raaja? Dance sequences, mother, father pathos, bro-sis anecdotes, etc., Now, the flick is way beyond all these in the west and occasionally in our part of the country too. (I wish Raaja scoring for movies like "Beloved" and the like) I sincerely feel, Raaja is wasting his so called algos in this iterative, unvarying filmdom by signing movies again and again. If you want to find the pep and jump, the haunting ones, listen to "prEma rAga hAdu geLathi", wherein the Maestro scores a jazzy bit that should haunt you forever. Listen to yAthrAmozhi, kaliyoonjal, or "kaththumkuyile" from kizhakkum mERkkum. Were those peppy ingredients, missing, in "avathAram"? I would say, Raaja did his best in avathAram, yet, the theatricality took its toll and Raaja's songs were not heard much. When we were blustering big tales about Raaja's scores and songs in "kizhakkum mERkkum", the movie itself turned out to be a cast-off!! The real algo is Raaja alone cannot make a movie. He has to be given the situation and he IS dependent on situation. He has to be tried!! He is a human being!! Yes. Raajas scores and music alone
  remained reasons for success and super success in the past, no doubt. Look into those touser boy movies or those Mohan movies. I may well presume they never had anything called story. But art is evolving. You cannot fool all the people all the time. The risible state of our thamizh audience is that they dont wish to change their taste.
  I feel a more challenging Malayalam's Rajiv Anchal (forgive me if I am wrong)can bring out 100s of "Guru"s. So, the question is should Raaja sign up
  all kinds of moribund thamizh films? When one young guy in Malayalam (Rajiv) can bring out great tunes and melody from the Maestro, why not our thamizh so called talented guys?? The path cannot change. The look has to be new and different. Thats it!!
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Mon Oct 5 10:22:19 EDT 1998
  
  shashi,
  Just for sheer distinction purposes,do U have any song of IR which was composed for prewritten GOOD lyrics.We can talk a little bit more objective without being vague.If U can spot any non alogirtamic song from IR ,it will be a good moot point for this discussion.
  My take on this thread,Music is a rythymic pattern of sound.If it does'nt have a pattern then it becomes noise.Composing is intutive.Infact in one of the stage shows of IR, he said that no amount of theoritcal knowledge can make you into a composer.One might know counterpoints,inversions or can have major raga repository but these theoritical knowledge cannot make you into a composer.This is where art and science diverge.Art is a reflection of a man's thought process.There is no school of music which can teach you to compose.It has to come from within.One has to unleash his creative part of his psyche.
  Yes,I do agree that IR did compose some songs which were stale and very predictable.But if we step back and analyze those songs,he could have done it for prior commitment without involvment.
  I do know that he really wanted a break after 91 but was unable to take b'cause of his commitment(personal and professional) and did churn out some junk.It was coming from a tired man who had a relentless streak in the 80's.
  There is no fixed formula for a song.I am confident that IR can and will surprise us more than his contemporaries.GURU is an example,which was different and was least predictable and composed to prewritten GOOD lyrics.
  
  

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