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In spite of being such a big MD down south, why did IR not make it to the top in HFM

Topic started by Rajesh (@ 203.92.84.189) on Wed May 8 04:27:56 EDT 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

As legend has it, IR was signed for a couple of Hindi movies soon after Sadma. Sippy, the maker of Sholay, took IR as the MD. He wanted IR to get 'inspired' from some English number, which IR refused to do. Promptly Sippy had replaced someone else as the MD. IR filed a case against Sippy. And Sippy made sure that IR never got a chance in HFM. Do not know what happened to the case, but IR lost his market (!!!!) in HFM. I read this in a Telugu magazine quite some years back. This topic is to discuss this and also whether IR would have made it big in HFM. What are his plusses and minuses in HFM and how would Hindi music lovers reacted to IR kind of music. No personal attacks please.

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Responses:

• From: e (@ 210.214.5.236) on: Wed May 8 04:55:32 EDT 2002
  
  Rajesh, why don't we discuss such things elsewhere since this forum is exclusively for TFM...
  
  
• From: avr (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Wed May 8 05:22:52 EDT 2002
  
  inspite of being at the top in HFM why didnt LM,AB make it to the top in TFM?
  
  
• From: OISG (@ 193.188.97.152) on: Wed May 8 05:47:15 EDT 2002
  
  Sippy kul Muthu ella polirukirathu!
  
  But wasnt "Mahadev" a Sippy venture?
  
  IR had used the "Nilavae than naan kayila pudichen" in Hindi in this movie though it was not the remake of Mudhal Mariyathai.
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Wed May 8 06:38:49 EDT 2002
  
  inspite of being at the top in HFM why didnt LM,AB make it to the top in TFM?
  
  Did they wish and attempt to get into TFM as full time singers in TFM ALSO?
  
  
• From: vinod (@ 203.200.59.39) on: Wed May 8 06:55:09 EDT 2002
  
  Rajesh, why don't we discuss such things elsewhere since this forum is exclusively for TFM...
  
  
• From: avr (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Wed May 8 07:46:23 EDT 2002
  
  Kupps:
  
  I said:
  inspite of being at the top in HFM why didnt LM,AB make it to the top in TFM?
  
  
  To this you said:
  Did they wish and attempt to get into TFM as full time singers in TFM ALSO?
  
  Now I say - did IR wish to become a full time HFM MD? Did MSV wish the same? Did KVM wish the same?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Wed May 8 09:24:38 EDT 2002
  
  AVR,
  
  What i wanted to say by FULL TIME means, wishing to sing in TFM as regularly eagerly etc (i guess u got what im trying to say) as they wish to sing in HFM.
  
  HFM means a greater audience greater popularity. The general trend(or mentality) for a TFM person would be yes I wish to work in HFM also as I do in TFM. But the reverse? I thought they(LM, AB etc) won't be so keen. From Rajesh's first post, it seems IR was keen and it was hindered by sippy's effort (it might be a rumour, but i just assumed it to be true and posed the question).
  
  Also the question i put was really a geniune question. But from ur reply i guess you took it the way i afraid it to be taken ( i agree the fault was in the way the question was posted).
  
  
  
• From: Rajesh (@ 203.92.84.189) on: Wed May 8 21:33:09 EDT 2002
  
  Kupps,
  
  You are true. Any professional would like to get recognition in front of a bigger crowd and I dont think IR would be an exception to this rule. But we have started deviating from the main issue of the topic - whether IR would have made it big in HFM. What are his plusses and minuses in HFM and how would Hindi music lovers reacted to IR kind of music.
  
  I would request everyone to dwell on this topic please.
  
  
• From: avr (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Thu May 9 00:11:26 EDT 2002
  
  About IR being successful in HFM - there is no doubt to his musical genius. But understanding of language could have been a hindrance, I think.
  
  Kupps, yes u have a valid point.
  
  
• From: Rajesh (@ 203.92.84.189) on: Thu May 9 01:35:31 EDT 2002
  
  Exactly!! But, what could have stopped him from becoming big - fear of losing, no support or some other factor like the one I had posted initially
  
  
• From: Raguman (@ 195.93.32.167) on: Thu May 9 04:19:52 EDT 2002
  
  IR could have become extremely succesful in HFM because the music up north tends to be less westernised and more classical based. As we all know, this is IR's forte and given the right opportunity, IR would have become as bing in HFM for his style of music as ARR is now for western music.
  
  
• From: HFM Long Ways To Go (@ 152.163.204.54) on: Thu May 9 04:20:35 EDT 2002
  
  personally, analyzing HFM, i find that their quality of melody, rhythm originality etc is very low or diluted. People like Ravindra Jain, Salil Choudhry with such classic melody making power and with more ingenuity than say RDB or SDB could not find much success then how could IR be comfortable with a not so musically enlightened audience. I still analyze Hindi hits and I am sorry to say, they seem absolutely boring from Kishore Kumar to Lata Mangashkar. I only still enjoy very few classic songs of Mohd Rafi composed by Sankar Jaikishen, Kalyanji, RDB or LPyarelal songs. Not consistent but they did have some remarkable songs. Creativity wise they are all just plain vanilla stuff. That is the reason ARR is able to stay popular despite giving boring numbers for HFM. I think IR did a wise thing by not agreeing to play 'their' tunes for staying with such a different audience. What satisfaction would IR have got. It is like asking Sivaji to act in Hindi. What do those guys understand about histrionics, drama and so on and again could Sivaji have succeeded in HM by speaking Hindi, where he woud uncomfortable. Success in HFM cannot be used as a measure of quality. As your audience goes larger, your quality is sacrificed to please a wide cross-section of fans. In Tamilnadu, it is very regional and fewer disparities in fan base also because of the richer carnatic tradtiions plus a wider exposure of the audience to Hindi music, so they are able to judge the quality of IR's music. Otherwise for over 15 from 1976 how do you explain no hindi songs heard on the streets in Tamilnadu?
  
  
  
  
• From: Vj (@ 203.197.20.74) on: Tue May 14 10:57:48 EDT 2002
  
  IR not going to HFM is HFM's loss. That he made them copy his songs shows his greatness. Edhiriya namma kaal-la vizha vakkaradhu is by no means a lesser achievement.
  
  And ARR going and winning ways there, I shd every TFM lover shd be proud of. Singathoda gugaila poi singatha jeyikkra maadhiri...!!!
  
  Hats off to IR and ARR.
  
  Ps : Odaney pls dont start whoz edhiri and whoz singam. :(
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.186) on: Wed May 15 05:54:10 EDT 2002
  
  Vj:
  Well said. I think that this should keep a full stop to this thread (before start a fight between...who is ... and who is ....).
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ 212.2.14.241) on: Wed May 15 06:21:45 EDT 2002
  
  Rajesh;
  
  Answer this question;
  
  In spite of being such a big Singer UP North, why did Latha Mangeskar, Asha Bosle, Kishore Kumar, M.rafi, R.D.Burman, S.D.Burman, Amitabh Batchan, Raj Kapoor, Rajesh Khanna not make it to the top in Tamil Film Industry?
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.186) on: Wed May 15 07:13:07 EDT 2002
  
  If some one is not able to make big in north, lets not worry about it. It is just not their area. They are thebest in their domain. I am talking about IR. But, we can always appriciate some one who inspite of all the hurdles made equally big there. That probably is his blessings. I am talking about ARR. Lets not confuse between IR and ARR. Lets view both of them as mutually exclusive entities.
  
  
• From: avr (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Wed May 15 09:06:56 EDT 2002
  
  Common Friend:
  
  I have been reading your posts on various threads and I am pleased to say that their content is IMO mature, balanced and well thought out. You also seem to appreciate almost all the good artists. Are u a senior member of this forum? Nice to read ur posts.
  
  
• From: Vj (@ 202.9.151.201) on: Wed May 15 11:19:40 EDT 2002
  
  whoa whoa ...!!! am i in this world? two ppl appreciating each other in a TFM thread....!! keep going folks..!!! :)
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.186) on: Thu May 16 06:02:41 EDT 2002
  
  Thanks avr.
  
  I am not a senior member and all. I should be just completing one year in this forum.
  There are many jambavans here.
  
  
• From: peeps (@ 12.162.224.6) on: Thu May 16 07:35:33 EDT 2002
  
  Thanks Common Friend for mentioning me..:-))
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Thu May 16 07:46:07 EDT 2002
  
  peeps
  
  neengaLae ungaLa karadeennu(jambavaan) sollikkareengaLa :-))
  
  
• From: peeps (@ 12.162.224.6) on: Thu May 16 08:12:54 EDT 2002
  
  ayoo...kupps enakku vekkama irukku..:-)
  
  
• From: avr (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Thu May 16 08:44:17 EDT 2002
  
  >> whoa whoa ...!!! am i in this world? two ppl appreciating each other in a TFM thread....!! keep going folks..!!! :) <<
  
  Vj:
  
  Why is this so impossible? :-)
  
  
• From: Rajesh (@ 203.92.84.187) on: Thu May 16 22:35:22 EDT 2002
  
  Hi Raghu,
  
  Why dont you extend the logic to Michael Douglas also? I mean it's really no ceomparison. We are talking about music directors and most of the MDs/singers in HFM are from Bengal or Maharashtra only and none from the core Hindi belt of UP, MP or Bihar. It is under this context that I started this thread. If a Bengali can be top composer in HFM (SDB, RDB) or top singer (Kishore Kumar, Hemanta Mukherjee etc), why couldn't Ilayaraja make it to the top.
  
  Even the names you have mentioned - Lata and Asha belong to the Marathi clan.
  
  
• From: Vj (@ 61.1.178.159) on: Fri May 17 01:10:39 EDT 2002
  
  avr.. its better to ask ROTFL and ambleen.. :))
  
  
• From: avr (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Fri May 17 02:05:12 EDT 2002
  
  Rajesh:
  
  Yes but LM,AB,Manna, Kishore,SDB,RDB, hemant Kumar had good enough understanding of Hindi. I am not sure IR had it.
  
  Yes, and before people rake up the north against south dialogue, please consider Hariharan, Kavita, Rekha, Sridevi, Hema Malini, ARR, Waheeda Rahman, Tabu, Suman, Guru Dutt........................................................................................................................................................................
  
  
• From: Rajesh (@ 203.92.84.189) on: Fri May 17 02:16:21 EDT 2002
  
  Kishore - Yes
  Lata - Yes
  Asha - Yes
  
  Not SDB, RDB and HK - In fact, RDB could not speak proper Hindi. But I thought music always breaks language barriers!!!Why isn't it so for IR then?
  
  
  
• From: punch (@ 61.11.73.84) on: Fri May 17 04:04:24 EDT 2002
  
  It was the real fate of HFM for not having recognised IR's music.
  
  Take for eg : Kaun dagar from lajja. Lata literally could not understand the exact feel or character of the composition.While she was very comfortable singing O paalanhare in Lagan. Sorry for saying this.
  
  Mind one thing IR is the only composer who was dare enough to compose in his own style keeping aside the normal hindi trend (100 people playing the same notes!).
  
  
  
• From: avr (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Fri May 17 04:51:21 EDT 2002
  
  >>Take for eg : Kaun dagar from lajja. Lata literally could not understand the exact feel or character of the composition.While she was very comfortable singing O paalanhare in Lagan. Sorry for saying this. <<
  
  That was more due to Lata's jaded vocals in both songs :)
  
  
  >>Not SDB, RDB and HK - In fact, RDB could not speak proper Hindi.<<
  
  I dont think so. While they might not have been good SPEAKERS of that language, they sure did understand it very well. Else nobody can compose something like "yeh saaye hain yeh duniya hai" (RDB), "kuchh dil ne kaha" (Hemant Kumar) or "poochho na kaise" (SDB). These songs need understanding of the lyrics besides compositional excellence,
  
  
  
  

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