Why TFM alone??? Ilayaraja is probably the best music director that India has EVER produced. What say all of you??

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Topic started by Karthik (@ cnl-4.cnel.ufl.edu) on Fri Aug 8 12:14:55 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

Responses:

From: Karthik (@ cnl-4.cnel.ufl.edu) on: Fri Aug 8 12:21:25 EDT 1997

Ilayaraja is for sure (note that I got rid of the probably), India's greatest music director ever. I think none of the others even come close to him in the race for the best ever MD in India.
From: Gopi Santhanam (@ neesgate.neesnet.com) on: Fri Aug 8 12:52:32 EDT 1997

Indubitably.idhil enna sandeham.
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Fri Aug 8 13:09:52 EDT 1997

IR is one of the greatest MD in India. To call
him the best depends on likes and preferences. I
like old Hindi songs or even old tamil songs (
of 50's , 60's and 70's (hindi only) more than
IR songs. So I guess it will be hard for me to
rate IR as the best ever Indian composer.
From: Gopal Prasad (@ host-207-53-2-58.atl.bellsouth.net) on: Fri Aug 8 15:40:04 EDT 1997

YES, YES, YES!!!! Ilay is the best composer India has ever produced.
From: Kitcha (@ dhcp80-34.ee.ufl.edu) on: Fri Aug 8 17:36:56 EDT 1997

This should be an unanimous choice. There should not be any second thoughts about this.
Talking about old Hindi and for that matter old Tamil songs tell me about any MD who has scored music for more than 850 movies and managed to deliver hits all through his life.
Morover Ravi, we are talking about MD's and not about songs. When it comes to a MD, IR is the best ever India has produced.
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Sun Aug 10 22:40:37 EDT 1997

Yov Karthik:

Adhudhaan angE "Best MD ..."-yil indha prachanaiyai
makkaL alasittu irukkaangaLE, adhu pOdhaadhunnu
ingU iNNONNu aarambikkaNumaa? Edhaavadhu pudhu
arguments irundha sollungO. Appadi illaatti
"IR is Best, IR is Best"
endru dhinam ungaL diary-yil Sri Ramajeyam ezhuthuvadhu
pOl ezhuthunga; ingu web pages-ai summaa
vishayam illaamal fill paNNaa vENdaam!
From: Karthik (@ dhcp80-30.ee.ufl.edu) on: Mon Aug 11 12:01:28 EDT 1997

Sathya:
TFM's best MD enru IRi ellorum discuss seiyum pozhuthu, Indias best MD yaar endru oru thread arambithal enna thappu? That way IR or MSV or yr favourite Deva can be compared to all the other MD's (past and present) in India. This thread is much different from the older one for the wider scope that it offers for somebody to discuss their favourite MD's in comparision to the likes of RD Burman, SDB, etc., And my point is, IR towers above all these guys, not just MSV and ARR. Don't you think this deserves a separate thread. Regarding, SriRamajayam - Thanks for your advice. I might do it someday :-).
From: Gopal Prasad (@ host-207-53-3-118.atl.bellsouth.net) on: Mon Aug 11 17:31:08 EDT 1997

Sathya sir, kovichukaadheenga! Enna panradhu, IR and his music speaks!!

Karthik:

As Sathya Keerthi says,tfm page has almost become IR fans page. There is nothing more we could discuss about him except that intrinsic data like different tune, different instrument, situation, etc., of IR could be discussed. But, we may incur the wrath of our beloved friends who are fans of DEVA, MSV, ARR, and the like, and thats not advisable. One thing that everyone should accept is, today, anywhere you start in tfm, you have to get back to IR. Thats the state!! That speaks volumes about his contribution. Lets rest assured that IR is the BEST India has ever produced!!

Karthik, as such, there is nothing wrong in elevating the discussion to a higher plane, that of national perspective. Here, we can break the topic into finer parts. Why dont we do one thing.
instead of writing pages, at least in this section, we shall go for a vote!!

On a scale of ten, lets see how MDs from the entire nation fare.
For example,

Parameters: Creativity (1)
Melody (2)
Rhythm (3)
Beats (4)
Unique (5)
Changes (6)
Convention (7)
Modernization (8)
Adapdability (9)
Orchestration (10)
SSO (11)
LI (12)
Lyrical stress (13)
Singers !14)

SSO: SoulStirring Outputs
LI : Lasting Influence (time tested)
Overall rating on a scale of ten ::

Now rate the MDs:
----------------

example :: DEVA (Specimen copy! Original ratings need not be as positive as this one! Further, this is a nation-wide search, so....)

1---------3/10
2---------5/10
3---------4/10
4---------5/10
5---------1/10
6---------2/10
7---------6/10
8---------6/10
9---------7/10
10--------5/10
11--------(-3)/10
12--------3/10
13--------1/10
14--------4/10
Overall----------3.5/10
--------------------------------
This could be done for all MDs who are in your mind, on a nation-wide lookout.
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Mon Aug 11 22:30:32 EDT 1997

Karthik: "Sri Ramajayam" ezhuthunga, appadi ippadinnu sonnadhu
summaa viLayaattukkuthaanga, just a little
kiNdalufying that's all; I hope you didn't mind.
Yov Gopal: Enakkum onnum
kObam illai ayyaa. I think this forum is all
fun; don't you all think so?
Adhu sari, indha
14 factor vote-eduppu ippa avasdiyamdhaanaa?
Eppadi Nation-wide views ellaam gather paNNa
pOreenga? Enakku ennamO idhil oru point-um
irukkuradhaa theriyalai!
From: Gopal (@ host-207-53-5-30.atl.bellsouth.net) on: Mon Aug 11 23:13:52 EDT 1997

sathya keerthi sir

eDhavadhu pEsavEnaama? summa ezhudhunga saar. jollya irukku. Nichayama Yarukkum kovam kidayaadhu.
From: kumar (@ 148.5.30.79) on: Tue Aug 12 01:30:40 EDT 1997

To ravi krishna:
True may be our preference not IR,
but you prefer a time period of generally
60's and 70's, but not a particular
MD. Just think of IR who has
made generation of music thats
stands competitive to the whole
generations earlier.
From: kumar (@ 148.5.30.79) on: Tue Aug 12 01:33:04 EDT 1997

From: kumar (@ 148.5.30.79) on: Tue Aug 12 01:30:40 EDT 1997

{correction}

To ravi krishna:
True may be your preference is not IR,
you prefer a time period of generally
60's and 70's, but not a particular
MD. Just think of IR who has
made generation of music thats
stands competitive to the whole
generations earlier.
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Tue Aug 12 12:47:27 EDT 1997

To Kumar,
Even though I like IR music a lot , I prefer songs
of SD Burman,Madan Mohan more than IR. The melody
in their music was unparalleled. In terms of
melody I also rate MSV very very high.

Just my opinion.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-td42.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Aug 12 13:57:46 EDT 1997

Gopal:
Some questions re your market survey design. By numerical averaging, you are assuming all your 14 factors are uniformly weighted. Should that be the case in evaluating film music?

Also, "time-tested" needs to be defined more carefully. Do you mean longevity in the field? Or, do you mean even after the MD's reign is over, his music lives on??? If it's the latter, several MD's cannot be included in the survey.

Also, who are the respondents to this survey so that we can have an unbiased sample representative of the Indian music audience world-wide?

(ellam jolly'nnu theriyum. Aanaalum rendu kaelvi kaettal innum konjum jolly, innum konjam vaegam!)
From: tamil_pattai_rasippavan (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Tue Aug 12 14:59:32 EDT 1997

To Ravikrishna:
I think this is a tamil film music discussion forum????
From: Gopal (@ host-207-53-4-93.atl.bellsouth.net) on: Tue Aug 12 15:12:21 EDT 1997

kanchana

by time tested i mean stay of songs even after the reign of the MD is over. May be after 10 years of an MD's peak.
Respondents to the survey?? Anyone who has listened to a variety of MDs. Thats quite tricky because, not many could have listened to all contemporary MDs at a time. Still, you cannot help it. Whoever feels like answering the survey can do it. The feedback shall make things clear of a persons taste. Lets see!!
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Tue Aug 12 15:36:09 EDT 1997

To tamil_pattai_rasippavan,

Look at the subject of this discussion. Some one has claimed that IR is the best ever MD from India( which IMO is a vasty exaggerated statement). That's why I brought hindi film songs into discussion.
From: PG (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Tue Aug 12 16:33:20 EDT 1997

To Ravi Krishna & others :

Forget film MDs : is there any other musician/composer in India who has straddled so many spheres filmy/non-filmy/carnatic/fusion and been successful at it ?
From: PG (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Tue Aug 12 16:33:44 EDT 1997

To Ravi Krishna & others :

Forget film MDs : is there any other musician/composer in India who has straddled so many spheres filmy/non-filmy/carnatic/fusion/symphonic (I hope it will be released soon) and been successful at it ?
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Tue Aug 12 19:55:25 EDT 1997

To PG,

Success is not a correct yardstick to judge quality. If that is the case than why don't IR
fans rate Rahman high. After all he too has been
very very sucessful in TFM in different type of
music in fact far more successful than IR in the
same period. What I want to say is that many
of IR work may have been successful but that
does not necessarily mean great quality. This
does not apply to IR alone , it applies to anyone.

Coming to IR spheres I do not agree that each
and every work of him is great. Take his film
songs itself. Out of nearly 800 films , I would
only rate 150 films as good , rest all were trash,
just like Rahman's recent scores. Sometime around
1992 myself and my group of friends decided to
check how many films of IR do we like. I had
great difficulty in selecting more than 100 odd
films. That's why I never give much importance
to the IR's prolific ability. To me a composer
with 80 odd great films (like S D Burman) is in
no way inferior to other composer with 500 plus
films , most of them mediocre.

I am a great fan of IR , not a fanatic.
Sorry if IR fans are offended.
From: PG (@ client-116-114.bellatlantic.net) on: Tue Aug 12 20:47:51 EDT 1997

To Ravi Krishna :

IMO :

IR has scored really great music for about 150 films, really trashy music for about 150 films and the rest of the films have had their share of good/great/trashy songs. Which I would say puts him head and shoulders ahead of anybody else. MSV is a great MD but nobody remembers his trashy scores anymore. If you were in India, DD could give you a perspective on MSV and KVM's share of trashy scores. True success is not the yardstick of quality but IR to a large extent has achieved success with quality music. His trashy music went were it deserved - trash bin. Unlike ARR whose momentum keeps delivering him success (and National Awards) even for his trashy scores. How many films of ARR have had great music ? 4 or 5 IMO (Roja, Duet (courtesy Kadri Gopalnath), Thiruda Thiruda, Pudhiya Mugam, Iruvar).

My question is :

Nobody has attained a peak such as How to Name It & Nothing But Wind. (And I am sorry to say not even 90s IR. I hope to be wrong with IR's symphony whenever it is released). I know your opinion about 90s IR and I agree with it to some extent. But IR's creativity is far from over. True his % of good music in 90s films has gone down but he has come up with music which would rank with his best. Regarding India 24 Hours, while it would not rank with HTNI and NBW, it is a great score. But while HTNI and NBW were IR's creations without any thematic constraints, India 24 hours as the CD inset says is basically a thematic music which was to be BGM for a collage of images celebrating Indian independence. The way IR uses the theme is superb. Minimal or nil use of Western classical influences (which is his wont). It is very different from what IR has done before. IMO, the orchestration was a little thin but maybe as a BGM it was supposed to be that way. (His BGM score in Devathai has been receiving rave reviews in the media).

Who else, hugely successful in his field, has also achieved recognition from his peers outside his field ? (IR has received recognition from Semmangudi/BMK/TVG/LJ and others for pure carnatic creations. He gave a (orchestrated) concert in the Music Academy in the music season. And FYI a night time concert in TMA in Music Season is an honour which is coveted even by highly regarded carnatic musicians. To give that honour to a cine-musician... That concert was well received. Not to mention accolades from LSubramaniam, Naushad, RPO, Paul Mauriat etc).

(BTW I happened to listen to Vande Materam by ARR and to say one word - usual stuff from ARR - and in Pepsi style - Nothing Indian about It !. It is a pop-patriotic album. I was wondering what Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan was doing in the 'Vande Materam' album - it is either a big goof-up or a brilliant marketing strategy to put Indian&Pakistani artists in this album.).

I don't agree with you that ARR is more successful than IR. In terms of money, yes, but the adulation and admiration which IR enjoyed in TN (and still enjoys to some extent) is unmatched. This cuts across all barriers unlike ARR whose fans fall squarely in the youth category.

I can add more but I gotta have my dinner.

Later...
From: ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Wed Aug 13 08:50:48 EDT 1997

PG you said it all. Though I'm not one for elevating IR to a demi-god stature, I admire his
quality of work on his non-filmy albums and quite a % of film songs.
IMHO, IR is the one who introduced BGM to Films (not only tamil) in a true sense and also single-handedly brought the audience back to tamil filmdom who defected to Hindi songs back in the late 60's and 70's
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Wed Aug 13 12:07:28 EDT 1997

To PG,

a. I agree with your assesement of ARR. I myself
think he is vastly overrated.
b. I also think that Indian 24 hours is a great
album by IR. Not as good as HTMI but
certainly a very good album. These days I am
listening to it as if there is no tomorrow.
Somehow I don't like NBW that much. I feel
that each number is too long and unlike HTNI
it didn't have that much of classical stuff.
c. Coming to the great songs of IR , I have done
a comparison of IR's great songs with that of
MSV , SDBurman, Madan Mohan and I found that
I personally don't like IR's great songs as
much as that of other MD's.I don't feel that
it is insulting to other MD's but I just think
that IR suffers in comparison.
d. Re: BGM there is no doubt that IR is way
ahead of all other MD's.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Wed Aug 13 12:21:40 EDT 1997

To Ravi Krishna :

About NBW : Unlike HTNI where IR fuses carnatic and western classical (and some jazz in a few pieces), in NBW he breaks new ground. There are no obvious carnatic influences (though Western classical influences are evident in a few places) but for the most part of the album he treads areas which noone has ventured before. The way he has used the flute is astounding. I can't think of any style of music where the flute is used in such a powerful manner. (Tull/Ian Anderson too uses the flute to make powerful music but in a totally different style.)
From: GOpi SAnthanam (@ neesgate.neesnet.com) on: Wed Aug 13 12:57:17 EDT 1997

Agree with PG ., Tull/Ian Anderson uses
the flute in an exemplary manner but IR
has got his own inimitable style .

In nandhavanatheru the song 'anniya kaatu'
has a flute piece for a second that eggs you
on to dance ... Subtle,short and sweet.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Wed Aug 13 13:02:49 EDT 1997

How many movies have these MDs scored music for ?

MSV
MSV/TKR
TKR
KVM

PPP fellows - any ideas ?
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Wed Aug 13 15:35:50 EDT 1997

To PG,

About NBW:- I don't know what category does NBW
come into but IMO it is not great. I don't feel
listening to it as much as HTNI.
Also your bias towards IR is glaring ( no offence). You are not ready to give credit to Rahman for Duet ( you gave it to Kadri Gopalnath),
but you are willing to give credit to IR for NBW,
whereas IMO the credit should go to Hari Prasad
Chaurasia, applying the same logic.
And yes I am also a great fan of Tull/Ian Anderson.
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Wed Aug 13 17:29:02 EDT 1997

To Ravikrishna:
I read your comments on IR's compositions and music and this is my comments. I do not think you can compare Hindi songs to Tamil songs. Can you compare Hindustani music with Carnatic music? So, a person who likes hindi songs may not like tamil and vice versa because, the style in which the songs are tuned are radically different. I do listen to hindi songs. I like old Hindi songs and they are melodious. But IMO, all hindi songs sound alike and I do not find much variety(light, without much ostentation).
And I feel that ARR was successful in Bollywood because he gave different music. I feel that IR should be compared with any contemporary MD in Hindi. It is also a mistake to compare MSV with IR because of the same reason.
Your statement that IR's songs lack quality is unacceptable. You cannot measure quality by the number of successful films for which music was produced. If you had listened to Deva/Sirpi/VidyaSaagar's music, you will understand what is not quality. Even a very ordinary song composed by IR in a quite unknown film has its utmost perfection. Listen to "Muthu muthu poonkudi thithikira jaangiri" in "Ilaya Raagam". A violin piece that starts this song is simply superb. The movie was a flop but it had 3 hit songs to its credit. No other MD in in INDIA has been so versatile enough to provide such high quality music, compose new raagas in carnatic music, release albums like HTNI, NBW and India 24 hours, and also was recognized at the world level and asked to compose a symphony for the Royal Philharmonic and thus there is no doubt that he could be the best music director INDIA has produced. Success in an area can be achieved only by providing quality stuff. No one can deny it. Whatever happened to people like Sankar Ganesh, Maragadhamani and the like? Even after composing music for so many films, his recent compositions still speak about his musical genius, and the variety that could be observed in his earlier tunes. Hats off to Raja! I really appreciate his music and am proud of being his fan. I may be termed as fanatic as whatever it may be . But I am not biased. I love MSV's music and even now lose my heart to his old songs. I also liked ARR's songs in Roja and Pudhiya Mugam. But later I felt that his compositions were repetitive and not very soul-stirring as IR's music.
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Wed Aug 13 18:02:21 EDT 1997

To Cp,

I do not wish to debate with a person who thinks
that all hindi songs sound the same.

thanks for all your time and effort.
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Wed Aug 13 18:29:31 EDT 1997

To Ravikrishna:
Hey! do not jump into conclusions and run away from this topic. Very vague statements like IR's music lacks quality, all his songs are trash shows that you are a totally biased person and you like only hindi songs. I also regret to have extended the thread on to your name.
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Thu Aug 14 00:01:59 EDT 1997

gOpi santhaanam

naan romba naaLaa solla vENdum enRu ninaiththathai neengaL solli vitteergaL - One main aspect of IR's music is that, he gives a marvellous piece of music for a VERY SHORT TIME, not more than 2 cycles which makes you long for that piece.

ennum konja nEram adhE piece varaathaa endRu Enga vaippathil raajaa raajaathaan.

Eg.

The guitar piece in the first interlude of 'rOjaavaith thaalaattum thenRal' - ninaivellaam nithyaa

The flute piece in the first interlude of 'kaRavai maadu mUNu' - magaLIr mattum

Ravi Krishnaa

Did you know that only the classical portions of Saxaphone in Duet were played by Kadri? The light portions were played by somebody else. The credits are shown in the back of the audio cassette. Even otherwise we cannot praise the player for good music. The composer has to be obviously given more credit.

General

If any one says that IR is the best MD (In India or in TN), there has to be some amount of personal taste associated with it. I will undoubtedly vote for IR. In fact, I will say that he is the best MD in the world. This is because I cannot stand Western music (except classical) and hence I do not bother about other musicians. But that my view and that cannot be universal.

Coming to the discussion. There are some great MDs in the Hindi field who gave wonderful songs in the MSV era. OPNayyar, SDBurman, Shankar-Jai Kishan are defenitely greats. Since we have been in TN and we got such wonderful music from MSV and IR, we did not have time to listen to those people.

My father has collections of Hindi songs of the Pre-70 era and they are similar to MSV kind of stuff. I have not listened to many songs but still you cannot write then off.

But the Hindi MDs in IR era are hopeless (except RDBurman). The current disintegration which TFM is suffering now happened to Hindi in 80. They never improved since then. Songs after Mohd.Rafi's death were real trash until our guNdan ventured and kalakkufied in 'Ek dujE kEliyE'. Even after that there has been a severe shortage of MD's and a more serious drought for male singers. This is th e reason why Hindi songs are unhearable today.

One more reason why Hindi songs after 70s became monotonous was they were rhythym based and not tune based like ours. The prominent rhythym in the songs gives us the 'already heard' feeling.

So my view would be:

If anybody thinks that IR is better than MSV, then he can assume that IR is better than anybody else in the country.

If anybody feels that MSV may be better than IR, then he has to closely study IR in comparison with the all-time Hindi greats like Shankar-Jai Kishan, OPNayyar, Naushad, SDB etc.

Defenitely IR is better than RDB. No question about that.

I do not consider present day Hindi MDs as MDs. Forget considering them for this comparison.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Thu Aug 14 09:36:26 EDT 1997

TO Ravi Krishna :

About Kadri Gopalnath and Duet :
If you had seen KB's movies before Duet you probably would not have asked this question. KB displays his fondness for Kadri's music in a few earlier movies. (I can think of Vaaname Ellai). The whole movie was designed by KB to highlight Kadri's music. IMO it was KB's choice to use Kadri for the film and not ARR.

Yes I have no hesitation in accepting that I am biased and I love to hate ARR's music. There is no such thing as objectivity - everything is subjective - even when we believe ourselves to be objective.

HTNI is your choice, NBW is my choice. Composer's Breath and the third piece of the album (Is it Song Of Soul ?) is IMO the best IR has composed.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Thu Aug 14 09:48:49 EDT 1997

To Ravi Krishna :

I won't claim the same for ARR using Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan in his Vande Mataram.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Thu Aug 14 09:53:38 EDT 1997

To Ravi Krishna :

Forgive me for adding in bits and pieces :

Hari Prasad Chaurasia has never played music of the type he played in NBW.

And ARR has never before and after composed music of the type he did in Duet.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Thu Aug 14 11:03:45 EDT 1997

Sorry ARR fans,

I am being unfair when I don't give ARR credit for Duet.
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Thu Aug 14 14:07:29 EDT 1997

To Gopi and Aravind:

How about the one in 'mannan koorai chelai' from Chiraichchalai?. This interlude comes immediately after IR starts singing and lasts for barely 5 secs. I'm not sure about the instrument (sounds like some wind instrument); a really haunting piece of music
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Thu Aug 14 14:14:41 EDT 1997

To CP,
Please do not put words in my mouth.
I never said that all of IR songs are trash. I would consider this as a blasphmey(sp?). Perhaps
you don't know how much I like IR. But I
also acknowledge of his 800 odd films I like
hardly 150 films. Rest of it is trash IMO. This
may be due to the fact that I am not from TN and
hence many of his rural TN folk songs simply do
not appeal to me. For eg I just don't like the songs of 'Karakaatgaran' (sp?) even though I
believe it was a big hit. I bought hindi songs into discussion because of the subject of this thread. I definitely feel that old hindi songs
are better than IR songs. Heck I feel in terms
of melody MSV can also give IR a tough compettion.

All said and done IR is one of the greatest composer of the world. No doubt about it.
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Thu Aug 14 14:21:27 EDT 1997

To PG,

As I said earlier the numbers in NBW are trifle long and borders on monotony after sometime. Like HTNI and India24H he should have composed shorter numbers.
In terms of creativity HTNI is head and shoulders above NBW.
IR has shown flashes of brilliance in I24H. There
are pieces which were out of the world. But I am afraid that the recording , tonal quality and the
instruments were not up to the mark. While listening to I24H I can hardly believe that I am listening to a 1996 album. It's sounds so much like a late 80's album. Perhaps IR should have
used the services of ARR for this. (flames awaited).
From: PG (@ client-116-33.bellatlantic.net) on: Thu Aug 14 21:53:21 EDT 1997

To Ravi Krishna :

When you exclude IR's rustic numbers you exclude at least 50 films which had great music. That would to extent explain your 150 count. Films like Karagattakkaran, 16 Vayathinile, Rosappoo Ravikkaikkari, AnnakkiLi had great rustic songs. In fact IR in his early days was famous because of his rustic/folk songs. He was considered to be good only for those type of songs till he broke the mould for good with his songs for Priya (TFM's first stereo recording).

About NBW what you consider monotony, I consider as hypnotic. HTNI is a relaxed album where IR tries out all his experimental ideas. While NBW is much more introspective. NBW has a meditative, hypnotic quality to it. Whenever I get the blues, i turn out all the lights and listen to NBW in high volume with no other ambient sound. (Other albums of this meditative quality sound - Enigma (MCMXC AD, LShankar's Song for Everyone etc).

I have got to agree ARR records his songs much better than anybody in the business. Nadeem-Shravan once mocked ARR in a Filmfare interview that ARR is a sound-recordist not a composer.
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Thu Aug 14 22:10:07 EDT 1997

ARR records his songs himself in Digital recording. But that defenitely spoils the original sound of the instrument. It looks (sounds?!!) very artificial. Moreover, we feel as if the singers are singing from a deep well. To much of 'something', I do not know what, spoils the mood of the song. I am dead against this digital recording.

Coming to Nadeem-Shravan. ARR paththi comment adikka avargaLukku enna arukadhai irukku. vettip pasanga.

Hello Ravikrishna - what I guessed is right. You were not brought up in TN. So you do not like IR's 50+ folk based movies and you have not even heard his 200+ not-so-famous movies. So do not make statements like 650 of his movies is trash. When you have heard only 200 (I doubt even that) how can you comment on the rest?

BTW, I agree that many Hindi MD's in the 60s gave some songs which are better than the IR songs you may have heard.

Ravy

I will listen to 'mannan koorai' and get back. It is a wonderful song.

BTW

ON BEHALF OF TFM, LET ME WISH YOU ON THE GOLDEN JUBILEE OF INDEPENDENT INDIA
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Thu Aug 14 23:59:25 EDT 1997

Sorry I thought of mentioning this yesterday itself. maRanthu vittathu.

CP

The song 'muththu muththup pUngkodi' is from 'Mayabazaar 95' and not from 'iLayaraagam'. But yes, that violin piece is real 'kalakkals'
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Aug 15 09:31:41 EDT 1997

To Aravind :

I think you are confusing use of synthesizers and digital recording. Digital recording is good - the quality you get from a DDD (Digital recorded/Digital mastered/Digital transferred) recording is spectacular which can never matched by analogue recordnig. And Digital Recording has nothing to do use of synthesizers. Both are mutually exclusive. Use of synthesizers get monotonous after some time because the sound in the synthesizers is - well - synthesized. Synthesizers recreation of the sound of organic instruments like violin/flute is basically sampled sound. Once you sample the sound and store it in the synthesizer, it sounds the same irrespective of who is playing it. i.e when you press a key, it sounds the same irrespective of who is doing it. Not so in real instruments. The tonal quality differs from instrument to instrument and from person to person.
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Fri Aug 15 12:18:31 EDT 1997

To Arvind:
I have already explained why I don't like rustic rural songs of IR. Too bad if IR has composed lot of films on that line. It's not my preference.

To PG:

Talking about meditative quality of a work , the one which I rate as the finest piece of music I have ever heard is L Shankar's "who's to know" ,
a double string violin album. The tonal quality of the violin plus his virtuosity makes this album
an exquisite piece of art. Sorry no work of IR comes anywhere near this. For that matter I don't rate any film music that high. FM has obvious limitation in class and quality IMO. I listen to it for unwinding , never take it seriously. IR's HTNI is definitely above his usual standard of film music.
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Fri Aug 15 12:27:43 EDT 1997

Please do not dilute the standard of the discussion by dragging Nadeem Shravan into this.

The only MD (both in tamil and hindi) who can be compared with IR in verstality & melody was late RDBurman. Like IR he was good in both light western number and also great in classical numbers. His recording , instrumentation was also terrific. I know BGM of IR is the best I have ever heard , but RDB also has given some great BGM as in Sholay , Saagar.
I was once a great fan(atic) of RDB before I switched my loyality to IR. I got to admit that IR > RDB.
Anyhow we can listen and enjoy music of any MD as long as it is good , be it IR or RDB or even ARR.

Sorry of bringing Hindi FM into this.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Aug 15 13:54:42 EDT 1997

TO Ravi Krishna :

I am a great fan of LShankar (who I consider better than LSubramaniam) and I have all albums of LShankar. IMO NBW & HTNI is better than LShankar's works. I agree with your stmt about film music. Film music is better than jingles for ads only both have their own restrictions. That is precisely why I would love IR to reduce his filmy workload and devote more time to non-filmy stuff.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Aug 15 14:20:02 EDT 1997

I have to admit though that LShankar's albums are much better recorded. Even though they were recorded in late 70s the albums have been extremely well-preserved.
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Fri Aug 15 15:27:21 EDT 1997

To PG,

Which work of L Shankar are you comparing with NBW and HTNI. If you are comparing his fusion albums may be you are right. But if you are comparing IR's work with that of LShankar's Who's to know,
Galaxy(raag abheri),Panch Naada Pallavi then I am sorry to say that I won't even respond to this outlandish statement.
I agree that L Subramaniam is not as good as his
brother L Shankar, though I like some of the
fusion stuff of L Subra also.
From: PG (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Aug 15 15:42:28 EDT 1997

I am comparing fusion albums like Song for Everyone, MRCS, Vision etc. About other albums which are more towards classical music I don't think such a comparison is meaningful. In addition to the albums you mentioned, Soul Searcher is also of the more-classical music category. Comparing it to fusion music albums like HTNI, NBW and India 24 Hours is like comparing Beethoven to Miles Davis (no direct analogy). LSubs has good albums like Conversations/ East Meets West (with Yehudi Menuhin) but quite a few mediocre to bad albums.

I think this discussion is moving beyond the scope of this discussion group. e-mail me more about this.
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Fri Aug 15 16:14:11 EDT 1997

To PG:
what's your email address. I tried padmanabhang@merck.com. It bounced.

Why don't you email me at rkrishna@informix.com.

thanks.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Aug 15 16:28:28 EDT 1997

If you move the cursor over a name in blue, you will see the e-mail address on the status line (Netscape Gold). You can click on it directly to open the e-mail application. Anyway my e-mail address is padmanabhang@hotmail.com
From: Aravind (@ palo7.pacific.net.sg) on: Fri Aug 15 22:08:08 EDT 1997

PG

Can you give me more details about this Synth. and Dig. Rec. etc? I do not know much about these. But let us either contact each other by mail or start a new thread.
From: PG (@ client-116-30.bellatlantic.net) on: Sat Aug 16 09:39:02 EDT 1997

To Aravind :
I am not an expert on these but let me explain what I know. If anybody thinks what I say is erroneous, please correct me.

Recording takes place in three stages :
The actual recording : This is when you record the music. Nowadays it is multi-track recording sometimes as much as eight-track to 16-track recording.
The next stage is the mastering : This includes mixing of the tracks, error-correction, replacing certain tracks (For very busy singers like SPB/KJY etc, during the original recording a junior singer will sing the song and the song will be recorded. Later, SPB will sing the song to the recorded music and the singer's track will be replaced.). The mixing is converting multi-track sound to two-track stereophonic sound or to 6-track DTS sound. Balancing of the tracks also takes place at this stage.
The final stage is the transfer : The transfer of the mixed sound to the media : film, cassettes, CD etc.

At each stage the method of working with the sound can be analog or digital. If you look at CDs they usually have a marking like AAD, DDD, ADD etc. The first letter is the recorded stage, the second letter is the mixed stage, and the third letter is the transferred stage. Since it is a CD medium the third letter will always be D. Most Indian film music CDs are AAD (old film songs) - just transferring the analog sound to CD using a Analog-to-Digial converter. Many new movies are ADD - analog recorded, digital-mastered, digital transferred. I don't know if anybody uses DDD which is the best. The earlier you convert your sound to digital the better - the sound won't degrade in later stages. Music Today uses DDD in their later CDs. TFM CDs do not even carry a marking of this sort. ARR is supposed to have a high-tech studio (Panchatham Inn) where he does all his recording but I am not sure whether he does DDD or ADD recording. (His latest Vande Mataram was recorded in London).

Devathai and some other moview were DTS sound so probably they were DDD recordings.

Regarding synths, basically they recreate real-life instruments electronically. (They also try to recreate sounds not possible on real-life instruments). They way they do this is sampling of real-life instruments. Depending on the quality of the synthesizer, the cost, the sound from the synthesizer sounds closer to real-life instruments. It is my opinion that an above-average listener over a long time can distinguish between real sound and synthesized sound. There are top-of-the line synthesized instruments like Yamaha and Roland Digital Pianos which sample high-quality real-life sounds and sound just like real instruments. (There is a Yamaha digital piano series which accepts a floppy. The music is encoded on the floppy and the piano plays the music. The music is played by actually depressing the keys. The floppy socket is well hidden and it looks like an invisible man is playing the piano).
From: Ravy (@ ww-tc22.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Aug 16 14:56:13 EDT 1997

To PG and Ravi K.:

I'm a fan L.Shankar and I like pure carnatic based albums rather than his fusion ventures (he himself doesn't want to talk about them now). I rate his 'who is to know' as the best though I got initiated in to his music after listening to Galaxy. While the former is more traditional in carnatic, the latter has some double-violin gimmicks (at one stage he responds to zakir hussain's table in the same table sound using his d.violin).
But comparing these with HTNI or NBW is unwarranted as they don't belong to the same category. LS's brother Subramanyam has a few semi-western albums 'conversations' and 'Indian express'. I rate HTNI ahead of them.
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Sat Aug 16 23:48:37 EDT 1997

To all,

I agree that HTNI is better than the fusion work
of L Shankar and L Subramanian, but not NBW IMO.

Acutally when I was talking about meditative quality of music I was referring to L Shankar's pure carnatic album only not his fusion gimmics.

Acually my bias towards HTNI ( compared to NBW) is due to my liking for violin. Violin is my favourite instrument and I can never get tired of it. In HTNI violin was played very very well by VSN) and that's why I like it so much.
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Mon Aug 18 03:48:50 EDT 1997

PG

Why do singers sound as if they are singing from inside a well in ARR's songs?
From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Mon Aug 18 05:16:15 EDT 1997

Here we go again....!
From: Gopi Santhanam (@ neesgate.neesnet.com) on: Mon Aug 18 14:13:43 EDT 1997

To Ravy,
'mannan koorai' is an exceptional song .
haunting . The malayalam version was even
more sweeter . AS a matter of fact , I listen
to the Mallu version more than the Tamil
one because chitra sounds sweeter.

I really wanted this song to win a national
award . IR's grand austerity in this song is
amazing .
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Mon Aug 18 15:48:48 EDT 1997

To Gopi:

I didn't realize it was chitra (mannan koorai). She sounded different (pleasantly).
From: IR-fan (@ hexlabpc.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Mon Aug 18 20:06:35 EDT 1997

here some of you guys are talking about the quality of raaja's recent compositions. i think
arr's songs sound much better than raaja's songs
in quality now. and i read somewhere that raaja is
building his own recording theater which is to
be completed in 1998. and he said that it will
have all the latest technologies to record the
music. hope raaja's future albums will be in
much more quality.
From: IR-fan (@ hexlabpc.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Tue Aug 19 12:21:32 EDT 1997

i forgot to write the name of that sudio.
it's RAAJA UNIVERSAL MUSIC STUDIOS.
From: brijesh (@ 148.5.4.81) on: Tue Oct 14 04:31:47 EDT 1997

IR IS IR ,
SUMMA SUPER AAL.
From: T.MADHAN (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Sun Nov 2 14:17:18 EST 1997

To all those detractors of IR read this carefully :

IN AN INTERVIEW WITH THE " FRONTLINE ", MUSIC DIRECTOR Naushad Ali , the doyen of Indian film music, who has to his credit masterpieces like Mughal-e-Azam, Baiju Bawra, had said thus " What this young man, Illayaraja has achieved is 100 times more than anybody else has achieved ; only Time can tell the enormity of his Genius" -this was the comment straight from the mouth of a MD considered to be the grandfahter of Film Music in India. Can there be a greater compliment from a genius of the past to IR the great, who has been hailed as the greatest -

As far as old songs of C.Ramchandra, Naushad, Vasant Desai, Madan Mohan etc., are concerned, they were all good - but even those stalwart MDs suffered from pangs of repitition and NOBODY ELSE HAS USED OUR CLASSICAL MUSIC MORE CREATIVELY THAN IR.

MADHAN, GOA.
From: r.ravi (@ 202.54.35.157) on: Mon Nov 3 14:43:09 EST 1997

Thats it madhan !. Nice way to end a jealous persons remarks.
From: Srinath (@ socks14d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Thu Jun 11 12:29:01 EDT 1998

If IR is the best MD in India, I don't understand how a discussion could arise as to who is the best in TFM. If we approach MDn as a profession, the best MD is the one who has the best skills, aptitude(or inclination) and qualification for it. Applying a variation of Heisenberg's Uncertainity Principle (or Ian Malcolm's statements in 'The Lost World', for that matter), it would be impossible for us to determine the best MD in terms of pleasure obtained from their music. Our judgement really would be tainted by our level of involvement in the subject. But by using skill, aptitude and qualification as determining factors, I think there is no question that Ilayaraaja is the best MD...forever. Well atleast uptil now, but
seeing the current trend where a lack of skill, aptitude and qualification seem to determine the success of a MD implies that it is going to be down hill all the way from here. With IR, TFM saw its peak in terms of quality and quantity of output. If MDn is a profession and TFM is an industry, it can never get better than it was in IR's heydays. Heart rending songs ? You can't get more heart-rending than 'Katril Endan Geetham'. IR beats MSV hollow in ALL spheres of music.

Time & generation have nothing to do with appreciation - I always thought Kamal was the ultimate actor and Sivaji was an overrated, 'over' actor. I was born on the last day of '74 and grew up with only Kamal as an example of a good actor. And then I saw a couple of Sivaji's earlier movies. Quality has nothing to do with time. it is immortal. IR would have grossly over shadowed MSV had he been there in the 60's. Technically speaking, MSVs songs lack the orchestration (Orchestration does not just mean using 100 violins) and depth that IRs songs have. And yes each time you listen to IRs songs, you can unearth a different facet to them. I discovered this the hard way - as a Bass Guitarist for our LMT (Light Music Troupe :D) - Ragadhara. You have to wade through layers upon layers of classical guitar, flute, violins, cello, drums etc., till you find the Bass score meandering and occasionally rising up in the throes of ecstacy to accentuate that lead violin. Hear and say thanks that you lived to hear someone like IR.

Srinath

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