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Indian (Tamil) Music compared to World Music

Topic started by raycas (@ 212.186.40.21) on Sat Nov 10 18:50:14 EST 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

u know, living in europe one comes in touch to a large variety of music...all that western stuff, from america till europe, everything...
the reason for this thread is the following:
when i sometimes listen to indian (tamil, malayalam, hindi etc.) music, i sometimes get this feeling as if it was so easy to compose songs like these...of course i see all those complex structures in ARR's and Ilayarajas compostitions (also in other mds), but still, when i then hear western stuff, all these loud things where don't know how many different sounds are played simultaneously to create a kind of weird effect, then, then all of a sudden i get this feeling that all that western stuff is much more complicated and 'great' than this 'easy' music composed in our india...
i would be thankful to u people if u could find solutions to this problem...i would like to hear how u people 'defend' indian music...tell me why indian music is much more complicated and well thought than i think...

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Responses:

• From: raycas (@ 212.186.40.21) on: Sat Nov 10 18:53:38 EST 2001
  
  and please try to avoid crap messages...
  i don't want here anybody to insult someone in order to defend indian music, just tell me the 'facts'...
  thanks
  
  raycas
  
  
• From: Sivaramarkrishnan (@ 140.254.12.33) on: Sat Nov 10 20:13:55 EST 2001
  
  We can live in our own way and may be thrilling, but living in a structured way commands more respect and challenging. It may not be exotic but will be scientific and meaningful. The same applies to the indian music which is very structured governed by rules and regulations still melodious and rhythamic and pleasent to ears. It is not that i putdown western music which has its own charm. Just enjoy the music you hear instead of breaking the heads.
  
  
• From: Sivaramarkrishnan (@ 140.254.12.33) on: Sat Nov 10 20:14:48 EST 2001
  
  We can live in our own way and may be thrilling, but living in a structured way commands more respect and challenging. It may not be exotic but will be scientific and meaningful. The same applies to the indian music which is very structured governed by rules and regulations still melodious and rhythamic and pleasent to ears. It is not that i putdown western music as it has its own charm. Just enjoy the music you hear instead of breaking the heads.
  
  
• From: Kas (@ 203.124.2.57) on: Sat Nov 10 22:41:32 EST 2001
  
  are you sure that Indian music is easy and simple ... please re-listen to your records ... Western music does not have the same form and complicated raga scales as ours ... whats more, look at the kind of lyrics we have ... Western songs repeat the same verse over and over and over again .. Indian music has to allow for the tune and rythm to fit s stanzas worth of different words ...
  
  
• From: hari (@ 66.68.100.51) on: Sat Nov 10 23:26:20 EST 2001
  
  Historically,
  
  Greatest achievement of Western Music - harmony.
  
  Greatest achievement of Indian music - microtones.
  
  I dare to suggest that these are the 2 biggest "fundas" in world music.
  
  Today - Indian musicians are combining the best of both worlds - rahman, ilaiyaraaja to name atleast two - ie, there is expreimentation in harmony as well as in ragas here. Now I dont know if raaja and rahman have done anything new with regard to harmony, but raagas wise they have, we all know that. But indian music - specifically tamil film music has achieved a very sophisticated blend of both worlds - ie incorporating harmony into Indian classical style. I suppose the 3 greatest names in this "fusion" have to be MSV, Raaja and Rahman.
  
  Have western musicians achieved any kind of fusion?
  
  
• From: WhyNot (@ 203.24.100.132) on: Sun Nov 11 06:37:42 EST 2001
  
  raycas, when you say 'western stuff' are you refering to the usual pop music by bands or are u talking about western classical music? I think there's a huge difference between the two. Despite having been the pop Goddess for many years, Madonna had to take singing classes before attempting to sing for Evita. If you are refering to classical, then I think it is only fair to compare western classical with Indian classical. Likewise western pop should only be compared with Indian pop, which for most of us are mainstream movie songs as I think Indian pop groups don't really dominate mainstream Indian music.
  Beyond tat, I'm not musically enlightened enuf to comment. But my point is, we should compare apples wit apples and oranges wit oranges.
  
  
• From: WhyNot (@ 203.24.100.137) on: Sun Nov 11 06:42:02 EST 2001
  
  Just to add, going by my argument, then we should also compare European folk with Indian folk music. Now, that would be interesting.
  
  
• From: raycas (@ 212.186.40.21) on: Sun Nov 11 13:39:23 EST 2001
  
  okay, i should have been more precise about 'western stuff'...
  okay, i guess it's a fact that western classical music like the ones of those old composers mozart, bach and beethoven were masterpieces (well, is it uncomparable? i mean can we compare indian classical music with western classical music? i must admit i haven't really heard to pure indian classical music)
  in indian mainstream music i only know about the film songs of hindi, tamil and malayalam. i must say, hindi kind of totally differs from tamil and malayalam (everything of course IMO), malayalam songs (especially the semi-classical ones) show a lot of complexity in it (eventhough some ignorants could still say they sound always the same with aaaaaaaaaa and repition of sa ri ga ma pa tha ni sa), tamil ones i like, also because of their complexity and also their modern touch (ARR and other mds are doing a very good work in this field), but i must admit, the hindi ones i don't appreciate at all...at least the ones in the ninties...cause they seem to me so simple...okay, but lets forget that, don't want to start a fight on if hindi music is good or not...
  but then, when u hear western music (pop, rock, r&b, latino and all that stuff) u get that feeling that it always sound better arranged, better sound effects and don't know, it somehow pleases the ears in a different way...
  but what i wanted is, that is arguments with which i 'defend' indian music... arguments to show the ignorants how complicated and genius our indian music is...
  and i thank kas, hari and sivaramarkrishnan and why not for their inputs...
  would appreciate a lot more, especially from so called music experts...
  
  raycas.
  
  p.s.: hope u got me (what i meant)
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 62.6.126.111) on: Sun Nov 11 16:12:37 EST 2001
  
  I wouldnt call myself a musical 'expert', but i've listened to a whole range of music. This is wat i think:
  Firstly, u say there r no real indian classical composers. U must remember that india do not have the same definitions in classical music as the western world. I think India's 'classical' music is revolved around traditional caranatic music. Each country have there own specialities.
  Comin to the issue of western music being more 'complicated', i dont agree with this. I'm not saying that India/Tamil music is more complicating, but it is definetly not less than western music. A reason for this is, u look at artists like ARR and other popular mds. They are much more musically talented than someone like Britney Spears. Anyone could make it in the western world, but its much harder with indian/tamil music. This is because the demand for quality is much higher. The diversity in indian music is more. Incorporating carnatic and western. U r mixing two totally different stlyes and forms of music. With western, u have nothing to mix with. U can only borrow other forms of music from around the world. The 'wester' stlye of music is universal.
  I dunno if that helped at all.
  
  
• From: raycas (@ 212.186.40.21) on: Sun Nov 11 17:25:11 EST 2001
  
  dear sam,
  
  thanks very much for this input.
  i didn't say there are no real indian classical composer...i just mentioned that i haven't listened to any.
  u know, it's just a bit strange when u explain to a foreigner how music is dealt with in india, that actually the main music market consistes of 'film songs'...of course, now, own albums of various artists are coming out, but still, its film songs which dominate the market...
  so actually just like in the western world, the mass hears to 'commercial' music (in india: film songs, in the west: mtv), and a less amount of people hear to the traditional old classic things [india: pure classical (again, i don't quite know how that sounds like. i think i have heard something like pure classic song once, but it sounded very, very boring i remember), in the west: classicals like of mozart, bach and beethoven] is that correct so?
  now okay, concerning commercial music: if we compare which music (indian/western) is much 'greater', then to which result may we come? western music should actually have more diversity, because western is much 'bigger' than india (one country), there we have all types, like pop, rock, soul, r&b, rap, raggae, hip hop, techno, rave, latino and so on...okay, this of course actually on their own...that means one song is rock, the other one is pop, again another one r&b and so on...
  if we look at indian commercial music: we have songs always very nice indian based (according to any carnatic or hindustani raaga) and then mixed with western stuff. it's actually the fusion which makes the indian commercial music so great, right? cause we use traditional indian music and also the western 'things'...we combine everything that exists and try to make something great at the end...
  and in the west, they more kind of stick to their genres...(although, now they are also trying to mix up the things isn't it? artists like jennifer lopez or ricky martin mixed latino with mainstream pop or r&b, or listen to the soundtrack of 'natural born killers', or sting used an arabic singer/music in his 'desert rose' and things like that)
  and finally coming to classical music: as i went to school here in vienna, austria, europe, i kind of had to learn a bit of the classical music here...i mean about those times and about mozart and all of them...and i still remember a music teacher we had who was really in a craze with classical music...opera and stuff like that...he was a singer too...so he used to play some of things of these old composers, and gave us the lyrics to follow...and then when he played it, he also sang to it, and then, when i saw the emotions with which he sang...it was just great...all those small variations in the music was fully intended by the composer, and this teacher of mine, he could really interpret the whole thing, and kind of tell us a whole story what this piece of music was about...was really kind of amazed...
  now of course i don't know the same about classical indian music...so could anyone who has really listenend to indian classical music express his feelings? i would really like to know if one can become so enthusiastic about this music, like my music teacher always became when he listened to his western classical music...
  
  okay, waiting for further inputs...
  
  thanks in advance,
  
  raycas.
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 62.6.114.187) on: Sun Nov 11 17:52:26 EST 2001
  
  Dear Raycas,
  What you say is very true. I learn mirudangam and thabla, aswell as taking an interest into the general goin ons in caranatic music. On friday, i watched a great mirudangam legend perform here in London. I dunno if u've heard of him- 'Karaikudi.R.Mani'. He played with a gatam player, a flute player, and veena. It was fantastic. I have never taken a favouritism to caranatic music, but one can aprreciate the skill and diversity of the music. I brought along my best friend who is a traditional englishman. He loved it. He was so taken up with the beauty of the indian flute, and veena- accompanied by the mirudangam and thubla.
  Caranatic music, just like western classical music, can be very repetitive and uninteresting when listened to in its purest form. When you start mixing the two in different genre's of music, then you can properly appreciate their beauty. ARR is a prime example. His songs are so widely aprreciated for this mix. He gives us hints of tradional western classical music, and also tastes of carnatic music.
  This is a very interesting thread.
  Thanx
  Hope you will find what ur lookin for.
  Take care
  
  

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