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Poetry vs Lyrics

Topic started by Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on Tue Feb 23 21:55:02 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Is Kannadasan a poet or a lyricist ? Indha Katru Veliyidai Kannamma - is this a poem because the author intended it to be poetry and not a lyric ? How different is it in quality from, say, Singarak Kanne Un Thenoorum Sevvayal ?

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on: Fri Feb 26 11:01:32 EST 1999
  
  wowwwww,
  this place is HOT. my naalaNa worth:
  rameshb, u have fumed at bhaarathi wanting a paththini for his koottukkaLi and not a slut. could it be that he wants a world where all women are paththinis? going by the utopian demands he kept making to sivasakthi, it is quite plausible that he wanted a world where women are not besmirched at all. assuming that he was alone (in the sense of seeking a companion on his wavelength, which makes marital status irrelevant), it is justified that he asks for "a" paththini. this clears up the confusion over the usage of "oru", and also absolves bhaarathi of not wanting more than one:-)))).
  anyway, thanx for the discussion. such a breath of fresh air from the rest of TFMDF
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 11:16:42 EST 1999
  
  Chandy
  nAnoru narambu kuLirnthavan , ennaipOi 'cool it' sollareengalE. I was neither boiling here nor effervescing. When i said i quit, i meant from this discussion (not permenantly!) since the arguments are diverging , we can not come to a conclusion. Am i reading too much from the word oru ? Yes, in this context where the word paththini is used , since i consider paththini is title of highest honour which even ordinary woman can achieve simply by following the norms. Am i wrong?
  
  Cram
  that was a nice explaination! but not convincing though;-))
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Feb 26 12:54:39 EST 1999
  
  Cram : That was a fresh line of thought, and i liked it. But it adds to the already messed state of affairs here. The line of bharathi could certainly be interpreted as another of his utopian demands and aspirations.
  
  Rameshb : Hmm... Romba pidivadhakArarA irupEnga polarukke? :-)) We cant seggregate one line and one word of Bharathi and pass certain judgements.. Given the larger context of Bharathi's poems in general.. and particular context of this poem which is full of "utopian aspirations", do you frankly feel Bharathi is seeking some "edho oru pathini" for his "kootukali"? If that were his intentions, he wouldnt have possibly used the term pathini at all.. he'd have probaly said "kootu kaliku oru pen vendum" or "mangai vendum".. Instead of focussing on the word "oru", try to focus on the word "pathini". That should tell us more of his intentions rather than the word "oru".
  
  (Heyyyy can someone give me other instances of Bharathi songs where he has used the term Pathini ???)
  
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on: Fri Feb 26 13:30:50 EST 1999
  
  rameshb:
  
  The more I read your postings, the more I dont understand. Whats wrong with "oru patthini" ?
  If I say I want to hv a relationship with A PATTHINIP PENN, whats the problem ? In my case, you may wonder whether the relationship implies marriage and whether a patthinip penn can hv a relation without marriage - fair enough. Not in the idealistic, utopian world of Bharathi!
  
  Also, Sakuntala, who would qualify for the patthini title, "married" Dushyant in the Gandharva tradition - kootuk kali defining the marriage is part of our culture and doesnt make the woman not a patthini!
  
  Also, why do you keep saying that you are viewed as obstinate and so on ? You hv a point to make, make it. If you cant get your points into my head and you are tired and want to withdraw, withdraw. First, I ( and several others ) perceive your point to be something that we dont agree with, we put up our views. I dont understand your objection at all now, and I am saying so. How else do you expect a discussion to proceed ?
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 13:32:23 EST 1999
  
  Chandy,
  i am very pleased with the way you have put forth your analysis. I always had a feeling that some of his poems are having utopian visions, the very reason why he is different from kavingar apart from other aspects. Some of DFers donot buy my observations, well it is up to them. Now coming to use of the word paththini, if he had such wonderful idealistic principles (he really had!) in general and woman in particular (i just love his poems on liberty of women), why would he use the word in this context which eventhough substantiates his idealism in his aspirations, but creates a bad image of (IMO) paththini(he could have avoided this word there by not making a room for misinterpretation). It is incongruous and i am baffled by this usage. As for as my knowledge goes, he always used his kannamma in most of his poems, but i am not a HCBF to be so authoritative in saying so. If somebody comes up with another example for convincing me, i will have to wear my glasses once again. If he has used this word to refer any woman as paththini,
  a) what was his 'idealistic' understanding of the word paththini
  b) why would he call 'a paththini' to play with him(kabaddi, as somebody claims) and not 'a peN'.
  
  (thaniyA oru peNNai oru mALigaikku pakkathulE, theNNan thOppukkuLLE kabaddi veLayAdalAm vA-nu koopitta ennyyA artham? . Just kidding! [not to be really related with the discussion] ;-))
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 13:44:11 EST 1999
  
  Bhoori,
  are you saying koottukkaLi is a synonym of marraige? Why should it take place in loneliness , in an bungalow , in an theNNan thOppu?
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Feb 26 13:48:25 EST 1999
  
  Ramesbh :
  
  Finally, you seem(?) to be falling in line.. (oops.. should i be saying this??).
  
  Again, looking at the word "pathini" in the larger context of bharathi's poems and his ideas of women, isnt it rather clear that he was aspiring for a wife for himself or his beloved (who would be loyal to him)... or we could just interpret it as bharathi aspiring for an understanding, and loyal lover for himself!
  
  He didnt seem to have any of the things (perhaps thats why he was wishing for them)- right from kaani nilam to pathini pen. So. wont it be wiser to interpret the line as Bharathi craving for a nice,loyal wife/lover?
  
  Bhoori : we dont seem to get tired very easily. :)
  
  
  
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 14:27:56 EST 1999
  
  Chandy,
  I always had a clear idea as to what kind of arguments or explainations that my observations can converge with. It is that you just decided to expand the horizon of your analysis. Now if 'paththini' was his really 'would be' wife or kAthali, don't you think that a poet of such a calibre should be more specific in choice of words? That is where the word 'oru' making grounds for closer look. When you started this converging endeavor you safely precluded this word 'oru' there by making a room for yourself to squeeze in your theory. smart attempt! Isn't it? But the word 'oru' can not be avoided(unfortunately!). So we are back to square one. 'Oru paththini vEnum koottu kaLigaiyilE' is strongly objectionable.
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on: Fri Feb 26 14:48:24 EST 1999
  
  rameshb: In Indian tradition, yes! We all agree koottuk kali is a reference to sex. Koottuk kali with a pen who has the patthini characteristics - whether married or unmarried - implies a relationship for life in the Indian tradition - at least ideally. The Gandharva form of marriage exactly this - as exemplifed in the Sakuntala story. You, of course hv to discount dasis etc.
  This is more true for women than men in the Indian tradition. Eka patthini virathans are rare in the Indian tradition, though it is considered as the ideal. The veneration of Rama is partly due to his eka pathini vratham. Rama is called the ideal man, not krishna, not Yudishtra, not Arjuna. We all agree that the poet is looking at an idealistic dream-world and hence things look obvious...
  
  Chandy: You proposed three alternatives earlier and one of them is that the poet wants a wife who shuold hv the patthini characteristics, another was the poet wants his wife who is a patthini, and the third was that the poet wants somebody elses wife, who is also a patthini. All of us agree that the third one is impossible. Ramesh has problems with 2 and so do I. The word "Oru" precludes that. Hence the first alone is possible and thats why I dont understand the issue Ramesh has with that word! That word ensures that the alternative 1 is the right one.
  
  
• From: Bhoori (@ synvpn.synplicity.com) on: Fri Feb 26 14:53:46 EST 1999
  
  rameshb:
  
  You had raised a couple of questions:
  
  1. We should take it for granted that patthini is used as per current usage. Otherwise, there is no point in arguing about this.
  
  2. The poet wants a penn who has the patthini characteristics! A penn doesnt become patthini after marriage. She has to hv some potential, characteristics, determination that she is going to be a patthini to whoever she marries/loves etc. Thats what the poet means by saying that he wants a patthinip penn.
  
  I am getting convinced that this is really a non-issue!
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Fri Feb 26 15:57:02 EST 1999
  
  Hi rameshb, and bhoori :
  
  All of us seem to be convinced of Bharathi's noble ideas and intentions (including Rameshb, who said he was wondering why Bharathi has to seek "oru pathini" in this particular poem!!).. the doubt in ramesh's minds seems to be due to the presence of the word "oru" there..
  
  Let us look the poem's construction now.. the word "oru" could have been added their for construction or rhyming's sake. Its certainly a possibility!
  
  The odd-numbered lines in the poem have 2-words in the end... eg. nila-voli, sartre-vandu, ange-oru etc.. While the even-numbered lines have the style of ending with vendum-plus-something.
  
  muththu chudar pOlE nivavoLi
  munbu vara vEnum angu
  kaththum kuyilOsai satRE vanthu
  kAthiRpada vEnum enthan
  siththam magizhnthidavE nandRaiLan
  thendRal vara vEnum
  pAttu kalanthidavE angEyoru
  paththiNi pEN vEnum engaL
  
  So, why cant it be that the word "oru" was used for the sake of sentence construction?? the other possibilities of usage there could be words like "ange-enaku" etc.. And angeYoru fits in well with the rhyme than any other word.
  
  Let us not mistake the poetic-usage-of-language to be some manifestation of sexual desires!!
  
  Rameshb, romba paduthareenga neenga :)
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Fri Feb 26 16:43:36 EST 1999
  
  Chandy,
  enakku intha cheyyuL , veNbA, AshiriyappA ithellAm vadikkath theriyAthu. kanji kooda yen authukkAri than vadippA. I am very poor in construction of poetic tamil. I have forgotten all i learnt in my tamil classes. But, i am sure bharathi was really NOT having intentions to tarnish the image of 'paththini' . He was indeed having very high opinion of women. He must have meant his 'kannamma' there. He could have been more specific. But it was probably to provide a rhythmic tasty poem for us to enjoy and so was my attempt to trigger a savory discussion in this thread (IRvsARR bOradikkuthu). 'kAni nilam' was just spotted on the way by me. It is a good experience to take such 'arsoning' topics and discuss (or debate) in this forum. Otherwise where is the fun? It was nice discussing with you guys. (romba paduththeetEnA ?;-))
  
  
  

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