Topic started by Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on Sat Apr 6 09:58:32 EST 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
Film Directors don't Act. Film Singers rarely Compose. Film Actors seldom sing (in every film.)
Yet, Film MDs sing. What could be the motivation behind this phenomenon?
Setting our preferences aside, could we share our thoughts on this blurring of professional identities?
Admittedly, there are a few songs that turn out to be appropriate (random example: Chandrabose's "Yendi Muththamma," MSV's "Sambo Siva Sambo" SDB's "Wahan Kaun Hai Tera" RDB's "Mehbooba" IRs "Aathadi Paavadai Kaathada" ) - but are these passable tunes enough to qualify MDs as Singers? Or should we just consider them to be fleeting (and interesting) abberations?
Here are few hypotheticals:
1. It's their tune, so why shouldn't they?
2. They know their compositions like nobody else.
3. There is a famine of good, trained singers.
4. It is cost-effective.
5. They can get away with it, thanks to their status as "genius" MDs.
6. Their fan-following pressures them to do so.
7. They know Music, so they should know how to Sing.
8. All successful MDs are failed singers, and this is their way to exact revenge for all the rejection.
Let's be critical (without being crass) in this investigation. If you have specific examples of Singer MDs hits and misses - and have any "formal" insights into their (non)singing - it would be a great help if you can share it with us all.
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: Ramki (@ 161.150.2.250)
on: Thu Apr 11 08:40:05 EDT 2002
sk thankssss
- From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.126)
on: Thu Apr 11 10:47:56 EDT 2002
And if indeed IR feels that a dog's bark is so sweet, why didnt he employ dogs and donkeys and buffaloes in his studio as singers? Why did he employ singers like KJY,SPB,PS,SJ to sing his fantabulous compositions, so that those were given their due justice?
Good point AVR. What IMHO, I feel is, the statement there is music even in the bark of a dog should have been stated from a learner perspective; a person who is interested to learn from anything. Could be that IR could seek some interesting thing from dog's bark also and hence that could inspire him to give an inspirational work. In addition to this, IR has said that dog's bark has also music in it, that need not be so sweet as that of M.S.Subbulakshmi's (or) SPB's (or) KJY's or any other singers. The pinch of the salt for the statement there is music even in the bark of a dog could be that it was from a learner's perspective not a listener's perspective. All IMHO
- From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50)
on: Thu Apr 11 13:48:24 EDT 2002
no one mentioned Deva's devagaanas ?
- From: RangA (@ 216.65.221.154)
on: Thu Apr 11 13:55:42 EDT 2002
There is no doubt that the little bark...oops..talk that AVR put forth is music to many ears but is there any substance in it? When IR said ( He had not said that to me but if people believe he had said that then let us proceed with that assumption) there is music even in the bark of a dog , any sane person would infer that the stress is on the even and not on the dog. But AVR, being what he is, wants IR to make music with dogs. He may very well do it when dogs really want them, but only if people like AVR can find out from the dogs whether they want them. If someone says 'water is a conductor of electricity', nobody barks back saying why do we have copper wires and not water wires. Anyway...
- From: RangA (@ 216.65.221.154)
on: Thu Apr 11 14:43:13 EDT 2002
Instead of nitpicking on MDs singing, let us look on the positive side of it. When a director/actor/producer/cameraman/lyricist/clapboy/audience T Rajender in his hoarse voice starts saying 'paNdaaram mottai pacha kalaru sattai panjaayaththu kattai paRakkumadaa muttai ' the average cinegoer who is trapped in the theatre goes through the torture. Whereas if you allow him to sing 'thattippaathEn kottaangachi' in that same hoarse voice one has a nice excuse to go to the toilet/restroom and start smoking cigreete even if you do not have the habit. Or take the case of Shankar/Ganesh. One of them got into acting and singing 'thaNNi kodam thookki pOna chellammaa ' or some such song when they were not rererecording the same 'dadaang daing dadaang daing' for the movement of aadu,maadu mayil kuyil, rajinikanth, kamalahassan etc. What I mean is you get a choice to enjoy the fun one way or the other.
- From: tea-kadai-master (@ 207.24.185.13)
on: Thu Apr 11 14:50:10 EDT 2002
innaa nainaa nee.. master, tea thaan pOdNum, mothalaaLi gallaa'la dhaan kundhikinu irukkaNum'nu rule solrE?
kashtamarungO Q'la ninnukinu irukkarappaa.. mothlaaLi lungi'ya madchchu kattikinu tea pOdrathilliyaa vaathyaarE?
tea nallaarkkara varaikkum yaar pOttaalum janam kudikkum.. janam kudikkara varaikkum yaar vOnaa tea pOdlaam..
akkaang.. sollradha solli puttEn aamaa!
- From: ammA (@ 207.24.185.13)
on: Thu Apr 11 14:56:59 EDT 2002
oru nabarukku oru padhavi thaan! koodiya seekram sattam koNdu varram'la!?
- From: pazha-k-kadai-vyaabari (@ 207.24.185.13)
on: Thu Apr 11 14:59:35 EDT 2002
nyaayaththukku naanE thaan ellaa pazhaththaiyum saapttuttu Eppam utrukkaNum.. pOnaa pOvuthE'nnu ungaLukku reNdu viththaa kuththam solreega? :p
[seri.. avLo thaan.. ithaan last poshtu.. ini mE distrub paNNa maattEn.. simran mEla saththiyam! :p :-)]
- From: RangA (@ 216.65.221.154)
on: Thu Apr 11 14:59:49 EDT 2002
modhalaaLi tea pOda vENaamnnu yaarbaa sonnaanga? 'copy' thaan adikka vENaamnaanga. (Oh! adhu vERa threadaa?)
adhaavadhu tea kadai saar, modhlaaLi tea vENaa pOdattum. thaNNi vENaa pOdattum. edhukkaaga master irukka solla avarE tea pOdRaarnuthaan namma thalaivar kEkkaRaar. Enakkum tea pOda theriyum nnu kaamikkavE, kastomerungaLukku late aavakkoodaathunnaa, kaasu micham paNNavaa? adhaan ippa prachinai.
- From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50)
on: Thu Apr 11 15:26:29 EDT 2002
RangA- sariyaa sonnenga.
tea kadai mudhalaali thaan konjam kevalamaa tea pottadhu kas(h)tamarukku theriyaama irukkalaam, aanaa avarukke-vaa theriyaama poachchu? tea-ya eppadi podanum-nu kandu pidichadhey avar dhaane. avar poatta tea-ya avar-E kudichchadhillaiyaa?
- From: hari (@ 128.83.175.136)
on: Thu Apr 11 16:28:48 EDT 2002
From AVR:
Celebrity "wise"-cracks like "there is music even in a dog's bark" are often to be taken with a pinch of salt. Though music listening is subjective, you cannot put the bark of a dog/grunt of a pig/bray of a donkey in the same league as ...
I think Kupps and rangA said the right thing.. My point was music is sound, one man's music is another man's noise.
Hari: Just because u say IR's voice or ARR's voice is not good doesnt make it a fact!
AVR: Okay...shall we say that they are in the same league as SPB,KJY,PJC? (as singers)
I am saying it is unimportant to have leagues of singers. The very notion that someone is a better singer than someone else is unimportant to me as a listener. What I do is listen to the songs I like, and I only say that I like one singer's voice more than the other, and not that one singer is better than the other. Maybe I am prejudiced, but that is unimportant to me. I get what I want out of the music.
Hari: No-one can be called a good/bad singer objectively, because good/bad music itself is subjective.
AVR : Fine, how about MDs? If music is indeed so subjective, are IR fans willing to stop proclaiming him to be all that much "better" than all other MDs till date? (and that too repeatedly, time and again, in so many threads and websites?)
After all music is subjective,is it not? :-)
I dont care abt other IR fans blah blah.. Your counter is irrelevant to my point.
AVR: Moreover Naaz hasnt implied that all songs sung by MDs are necessarily badly done jobs. But if it exceeds a certain limit,...
then he can stop listening to that song, and make a statement that he doesnt like IR/ARR 's voice in that song... or that he doesnt like IR/ARR 's voice at all... not that IR/ARR's voice is BAD.
All I am saying is, dont try to establish as a fact that one singer's voice is obviously much "better" than another's or that one singer's voice is obviously "bad. There is no such thing as better for me as a listener. It is an unimportant notion. ALL IMO, as usual.
- From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63)
on: Thu Apr 11 17:33:21 EDT 2002
Did I use that adjective - BAD - in my postings in this thread, Hari?
I said Music (when created by the composer) is not subjective. Subjectivity comes with the listener/preference. You've said the same thing in:
"...then he can stop listening to that song, and make a statement that he doesnt like IR/ARR 's voice in that song... or that he doesnt like IR/ARR 's voice at all..."
- From: hari (@ 66.68.96.108)
on: Thu Apr 11 21:34:07 EDT 2002
:-)
If you didnt say that IR/ARR's voice is bad (or atleast that it is WORSE than SPB/KJY or whoever), then this thread's title makes no sense. It might well have been - why does SPB sing? OR why does KJY sing?
I think clearly u have this notion that IR/ARR are (relatively) bad singers and that there is some ulterior/psycho-analytic reason why they sing... and not that they sing because actually they have fans who are willing to pay to hear them sing.
- From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63)
on: Thu Apr 11 21:57:41 EDT 2002
hari -
I only have this to offer - from the intro above:
"Setting our preferences aside, could we share our thoughts on this blurring of professional identities?"
And this:
" Admittedly, there are a few songs that turn out to be appropriate (random example: Chandrabose's "Yendi Muththamma," MSV's "Sambo Siva Sambo" SDB's "Wahan Kaun Hai Tera" RDB's "Mehbooba" IRs "Aathadi Paavadai Kaathada" ) - but are these passable tunes enough to qualify MDs as Singers? Or should we just consider them to be fleeting (and interesting) abberations?"
- From: hari (@ 66.68.96.108)
on: Thu Apr 11 22:26:25 EDT 2002
Yeah ok peace. Anyways, I still contend that ur post says: but are these passable tunes enough to qualify MDs as Singers So you are trying to set absolute standards for singing talent, and separate people who sing into categoris of "singers" and "others". Which I will never agree needs to be done. Have fun.
- From: arun_uk (@ 213.121.212.121)
on: Sat Apr 13 14:13:00 EDT 2002
Naaz
I've been following this interesting thread from its start. My guess is "there's more to it than meets my eyes". But to be honest I am unable to get my head around a basic few questions that you have raised like-
-"What could be the motivation behind this phenomenon?"
-"Setting our preferences aside, could we share our thoughts on this blurring of professional identities?"
-"but are these passable tunes enough to qualify MDs as Singers? Or should we just consider them to be fleeting (and interesting) abberations?"
The hypotheticals you have suggested are very speculative. It's difficult to try and look 'into' the minds of MDs' to elicit the possible reasons. A more simplistic view might throw more light to the debate. By 'simplistic view' I am talking about looking at this problem with a direct 'head-on' view than to look at it from various angles to dissect out hidden meanings. Lets just look at the above questions in perspective.(Naaz , again I may have completely missed the finer points which form the basis of this thread)
-What motivation drives MD's to sing 'selective' songs to their own composition? This is how I might have framed this question if I were you Naaz.
But given the situation what are the underlying reasons for such a 'phenomena' anyway?
Bearing in mind that our discussion here is about 'film' songs, I feel that it is the 'given situation'(overall situation shall I say) which exerts maximal influence on the choice of the singer.
A given situation might encompass for example, the actor for the song, the type and/or mood of the song, the simplicity or complexity of a song(in crude terms things like the raaga, the melody, the pitch etc etc) & the preference of the film maker/director in that situation. The hypotheticals you have mentioned probably play a minor role as motivating factors if at all. In any case I do not believe that any MD could by any means arbitrarily use 'his own' motivating factors to allocate songs for himself (I am referring to the vast majority of songs and situations here). That will mean bad 'business' for the MD in question.
Further I fail to grasp your thoughts on the 'blurring of professional identities'. I am not sure if I have ever thought of this. I am sorry I have mention names here Naaz. In the context of TFM of the past 30 years for example-- The 2 most successful MDs' namely IR & ARR have probably given voice to their own tunes more than any other MD- correct? And given their phenomenal success as MDs' during this time I don't think there has ever been a question of 'blurring of professional identities' because of their overwhelming presence as composers. Above all what they have achieved as MDs' is what counts they never had to qualify as singers to get noticed.. Am I making a valid point here?
IMO you are actually correct in mentioning about various technical defects leading to fleeting if not common abberrations in songs.And this I am sure happens to even 'qualified' singers let alone singing MDs'.The question is how much do these 'passable' abberations get noticed by the vast majority of listeners? One might logically assume that the 'overall impression' a song makes is what counts. How many of us are gifted to be able to pick out the very many 'flaws' in songs? Not me, to be honest. To give you an example I was completely oblivious to those 3 or 4 'defects' you made out in the 'Amma' song until you pointed it out earlier. I will be surprised if I learn that I am in the minority & I will be quite embarassed to feel that I totally lack 'formal' insights into singers'(non)singing.
Naaz, in his last few passages Hari makes some very vital observations. Naaz
I've been following this interesting thread from its start. My guess is "there's more to it than meets my eyes". But to be honest I am unable to get my head around a basic few questions that you have raised like-
-"What could be the motivation behind this phenomenon?"
-"Setting our preferences aside, could we share our thoughts on this blurring of professional identities?"
-"but are these passable tunes enough to qualify MDs as Singers? Or should we just consider them to be fleeting (and interesting) abberations?"
The hypotheticals you have suggested are very speculative. It's difficult to try and look 'into' the minds of MDs' to elicit the possible reasons. A more simplistic view might throw more light to the debate. By 'simplistic view' I am talking about looking at this problem with a direct 'head-on' view than to look at it from various angles to dissect out hidden meanings. Lets just look at the above questions in perspective.(Naaz , again I may have completely missed the finer points which form the basis of this thread)
-What motivation drives MD's to sing 'selective' songs to their own composition? This is how I might have framed this question if I were you Naaz.
But given the situation what are the underlying reasons for such a 'phenomena' anyway?
Bearing in mind that our discussion here is about 'film' songs, I feel that it is the 'given situation'(overall situation shall I say) which exerts maximal influence on the choice of the singer.
A given situation might encompass for example, the actor for the song, the type and/or mood of the song, the simplicity or complexity of a song(in crude terms things like the raaga, the melody, the pitch etc etc) & the preference of the film maker/director in that situation. The hypotheticals you have mentioned probably play a minor role as motivating factors if at all. In any case I do not believe that any MD could by any means arbitrarily use 'his own' motivating factors to allocate songs for himself (I am referring to the vast majority of songs and situations here). That will mean bad 'business' for the MD in question.
Further I fail to grasp your thoughts on the 'blurring of professional identities'. I am not sure if I have ever thought of this. I am sorry I have mention names here Naaz. In the context of TFM of the past 30 years for example-- The 2 most successful MDs' namely IR & ARR have probably given voice to their own tunes more than any other MD- correct? And given their phenomenal success as MDs' during this time I don't think there has ever been a question of 'blurring of professional identities' because of their overwhelming presence as composers. Above all what they have achieved, as MDs' is what counts they never had to qualify as singers to get noticed. Am I making a valid point here?
IMO you are actually correct in mentioning about various technical defects leading to fleeting if not common aberrations in songs. And this I am sure happens to even 'qualified' singers let alone singing MDs'. The question is how much does the vast majority of listeners' notice these 'passable' aberrations? One might logically assume that the 'overall impression' a song makes is what counts. How many of us are gifted to be able to pick out the very many 'flaws' in songs? Not me, to be honest. To give you an example I was completely oblivious to those 3 or 4 'defects' you made out in the 'Amma' song until you pointed it out earlier. I will be surprised if I learn that I am in the minority & I will be quite embarrassed to feel that I totally lack 'formal' insights into singers' (non) singing.
Naaz, in his last few passages Hari makes some very vital observations. I do think Hari is right in saying that setting absolute standards is impracticable. I also feel that Hari is 'spot on' where he says "They have fans who are willing to pay and hear them sing".
To shed more light to these observations it will be worthwhile if DFers could contribute specific songs of MDs' in their own tunes(providing its an acceptable). Once you have a significant contribution to the list a statistical analysis will reveal a clearer picture as to the good, bad and the passable ones. It will also tell us if MDs' singing to their own tunes has changed the complexion and outcome of songs & films. Again it's all subjective.
Naaz
I've been following this interesting thread from its start.
My guess is "there's more to it than meets my eyes". But to be honest I am unable to get my head around a basic few questions that you have raised like-
-"What could be the motivation behind this phenomenon?"
-"Setting our preferences aside, could we share our thoughts on this blurring of professional identities?"
-"but are these passable tunes enough to qualify MDs as Singers? Or should we just consider them to be fleeting (and interesting) abberations?"
The hypotheticals you have suggested are very speculative. It's difficult to try and look 'into' the minds of MDs' to elicit the possible reasons A more simplistic view might throw more light to the debate. By 'simplistic view' I am talking about looking at this problem with a direct 'head-on' view than to look at it from various angles to dissect out hidden meanings. Lets just look at the above questions in perspective.(Naaz, again I may have completely missed the finer points which form the basis of this thread)
-What motivation drives MD's to sing 'selective' songs to their own composition? This is how I might have framed this question if I were you Naaz.
But given the situation what are the underlying reasons for such a 'phenomena' anyway?
Bearing in mind that our discussion here is about 'film' songs, I feel that it is the 'given situation'(overall situation shall I say) which exerts maximal influence on the choice of the singer.
A given situation might encompass for example, the actor for the song, the type and/or mood of the song, the simplicity or complexity of a song(in crude terms things like the raaga, the melody, the pitch etc etc) & the preference of the film maker/director in that situation. The hypotheticals you have mentioned probably play a minor role as motivating factors if at all. In any case I do not believe that any MD could by any means arbitrarily use 'his own' motivating factors to allocate songs for himself (I am referring to the vast majority of songs and situations here). That will mean bad 'business' for the MD in question.
Further I fail to grasp your thoughts on the 'blurring of professional identities'. I am not sure if I have ever thought of this. I am sorry I have mention names here Naaz. In the context of TFM of the past 30 years for example-- The 2 most successful MDs' namely IR & ARR have probably given voice to their own tunes more than any other MD- correct? And given their phenomenal success as MDs' during this time I don't think there has ever been a question of 'blurring of professional identities' because of their overwhelming presence as composers. Above all what they have achieved as MDs' is what counts they never had to qualify as singers to get noticed.. Am I making a valid point here?
IMO you are actually correct in mentioning about various technical defects leading to fleeting if not common abberrations in songs.The question is how much do these 'passable' abberations get noticed by the vast majority of listeners? One might logically assume that the 'overall impression' a song makes is what counts. How many of us are gifted to be able to pick out the very many 'flaws' in songs? Not me, to be honest. To give you an example I was completely oblivious to those 3 or 4 'defects' you made out in the 'Amma' song until you pointed it out earlier. I will be surprised if I learn that I am in the minority and I will be embarassed to know that I lack formal insights into singers'(non)singing.
Naaz, in his last few passages Hari makes some very vital observations. I do think Hari is right in saying that setting absolute standards is impracticable. I also feel that Hari is 'spot on' where he says "They have fans who are willing to pay and hear them sing".
To shed more light to these observations it will be worthwhile if DFers could contribute specific songs of MDs' singing in their own tunes(providing its an acceptable idea). Once you have a significant contribution to the list a statistical analysis will reveal a clearer picture as to the good, bad and the passable ones. It will also tell us if MDs' singing to their own tunes has changed the complexion and outcome of songs & films.
Again it's all subjective.
regards
- From: arun_uk (@ 213.121.212.121)
on: Sat Apr 13 14:55:31 EDT 2002
OOOPSSS
Very Sorry!!!
A chunk of my post above has been "double-posted"(thanks to my copy & paste skills)
I am awfully sorry!
arun
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