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IR-ARR usage of instruments

Topic started by cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on Sat Apr 15 02:38:14 EDT 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

get ready for another round, guys (timepass panna venaam:-))]. no IR or ARR bashing, please, muthallaye sollitten. let's just discuss how each of them has used various instruments. for instance, IR's use of acoustic guitar is unparalleled, while ARR rarely uses it. similarly, IR `pales' before ARR when it comes to electric guitar or keyboards (strictly IMHO, everyone's welcome to disagree). start shooting.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Wed Apr 26 14:04:59 EDT 2000
  
  Krishnan:
  I will hear it..I have not heard it much...
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ fw2.torolab.ibm.com) on: Wed Apr 26 14:05:35 EDT 2000
  
  Yes, the malayalam chorus in the "Nenjinile" song was very good. Similarly, I liked the Srinivas chorus kind of effect in the song "Yenge enadhu kavidhai" from "Kandukondain Kandukondain" movie.
  
  Krishnan
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Wed Apr 26 14:18:31 EDT 2000
  
  since no work for now...i am posting more..
  
  One big difference I have noted till date from arr songs and raja songs....
  
  The feel or emotion in arr songs remains same through out a song...eg: if it is pathos song it is pathos thru out, if it is happy song....it is totally gives a happy feeling thru out the song,
  he has not done a song like suddenly changes some emotions for few bars in the song..
  
  But raja has done wonders...like
  take my same song example,vanam enaku from anjali, it is a happy song but just in the second bgm end, raja shifts to a acoustic guitar minor based progression...why...when the tape came out i was wondering why was there a shift,...but later seeing the movie....
  revathi feels bad for anjali in between the song...to get this emotion...he choose an acoustic guitar, flute, strings and a simple minor chord progression...score was very very apt...the credit also goes to mani ratnam to tell about this scene to raja and raja composed a great number...
  
  if you had seen i just took 2 songs (raja and arr) and wrote a about 10k...that is potential of tamil music, we need to ponder more.
  
  Hope everyone agrees with me,
  has any one observed similar songs
  (changing emotions in the middle) by arr.
  
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.9) on: Wed Apr 26 14:37:29 EDT 2000
  
  mm..ellaarum sErnthu orE nEraththila kottareenga (muththukkaLAaga) illainaa kottareenga (thELaaga)..
  
  Sriks..great job..pEsamal "rjay-Srikanth discussions (or discourses)" nu thread aarambichchu ellaththaiyum athilE ezuthinaal puNyam..
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Wed Apr 26 14:44:47 EDT 2000
  
  srik,
  
  how could you forget rAj and azagiya kaNNE uRavugaL nIyE? in every bgm there is a change of emotions.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Wed Apr 26 15:24:06 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth
  
  Thamizha Thamizha starts as a Ballad type
  soft (thallattu) by Hariharan and transforms
  into a breathtaking patriotic march song,
  and back.
  
  rjay
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Wed Apr 26 15:48:16 EDT 2000
  
  ravi,
  yes i missed out this song...
  i feel these kinds of change overs depends on the directors, here too it would have been the directors idea.
  
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Wed Apr 26 15:48:44 EDT 2000
  
  Raja's masterpiece in my list is Poongathavae
  Thazhthiravai - for the sheer variety, the
  excellent melody, feel, harmony, rhythm everything.
  
  If you want to choose one song to showpiece
  his great talents in instrumentation
  and composition, I would choose it.
  
  It begins with a breezy soft string quartet, grows into a symphony with its increasing
  pace and climaxes with a crash, within 1 minute!
  
  Well the intro is not done, surprisingly you
  get a soul lifting veenai ambience, and an ultimate
  flute call, then they play against each other,
  teasingly, the string section punctuates their
  interplay and neatly transitions into the pallavi.
  
  Listen to the intro again, the way the totally
  differnt feels (majestic string symphony,
  veenai-flute dialog) have been neatly merged
  amazes me every time I think about it.
  Nothing but genius can see that they can be
  put together seamlessly.
  
  Pallavi's simple tune, but the gamapa theme
  and gamakams of classical south indian. The
  single mridhangam beat in the accompanying
  percussion(congo set) sets a neat pace to the whole section, providing a vibrant back drop.
  
  First BGM introduces a piano theme (calls), very
  staccato-ish, and unbelievable solo violin
  responds very Carnatic manner. Then they play
  together and string section takes over
  and plays a transition against which
  tamil folk flute makes a statement and
  what a surprise, it plays a bach-ish
  western classical solo and still
  surprise, we hear a small song from the
  nadaswaram and thavil duo. My god, it
  is a song on its own, a statement, an
  elobaration, a climax and a resolution
  (30 seconds?). Listen to the thavil's
  playalong.
  Charanam singing, you see the second voices
  singing beautiful counterpoints and melodic
  responses to the lead singer. And it flows
  as if the entire tune is one long beautiful
  melody.
  
  Second BGM, string section transitions play
  and piano/synth single note punches provide
  a backdrop suggesting movement to new worlds,
  which is bordered by a beautiful echoing
  harp arpeggio, and a solo violin in the style
  of western masters plays a heart-tendering
  theme, to which the flutes play subtext,
  and the solo violin turns more and more mellow
  and transforms un-aware into a carnatic
  gamakam piece.
  The second charanam and the fadeout ending use
  the fuguelike repetition and interplay very well,
  and keep the mood so well.
  
  Is it possible in this song to separate out
  any idea (melody, harmony, instrument, singing,
  rythm) and discuss? Or can you delete a small
  section and not feel the loss?
  
  Only in a musician's mind, who has absorbed the
  vibrations of all past music, and seen their
  one-ness, can such a wide-ranging styled, yet
  well integrated song can occur.
  
  
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ fw2.torolab.ibm.com) on: Wed Apr 26 15:58:37 EDT 2000
  
  in the song "Thavikkiren Thavikkiren" from "TIME", at the end of second interlude, it suddenly shifts to a harmonica sort of music for a very short duration before the start of the second charanam. I dont know whether to call it a change of emotion, but its certainly a shift in the interlude. I dont know if raja did this on any request or he did on his own, but I liked the piece very much. It was a very short tune, but very pleasant sounding. I was not extremely happy with the recording in that portion though, as I did not feel a very clear harmonica sound or I felt as if at some point of time, the sounds were not properly laid out or something like that. I dont know how to put that.
  
  Even I made some little observations like these, I will post my comments whenever I find these kind of emotion changes (or something similar to that) in any of IR/ARR songs.
  
  Krishnan
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Wed Apr 26 16:01:11 EDT 2000
  
  You can produce fusion pieces by
  juxtaposing almost any two different
  musical styles and lots of westerners
  create such 'world music' where
  musicians from differnet cultures
  are invited to play along. They improvise
  and the sounds look neat and good.
  
  Raja's fusion is not that. It is the
  fusion of musical cultures in a single
  musicians' brain. it is born out
  of a unified musical vision.
  
  I respect Rahman for his amazing innovations,
  but his fusion surprises me and makes me say,
  that is clever, but IMHO real fusion must
  mask the parts, that is the meaning of
  fusion anyway. I believe give a few more years
  Rahman would give us such gems. Pachai niramae
  is a close winner. Thirakkadha kaatukkullae
  is another. And I believe that Rahman's search for new sounds and virtuoso performances, (while they give us great value) sometimes
  distract him from attempting good compositions
  that win because of compositional ideas alone.
  
  Kandukonden Kandukonden title song is an exception.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Wed Apr 26 16:03:29 EDT 2000
  
  I would term Raja's fusion as Fine-grained
  fusion or micro-fusion. A flutist called
  VijayaRaghava rao (Moods - album of 70s),
  Some of Ravishankar's 60s work is such
  finegrained fusion where you dont even notice
  that two different cultures are playing!
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Wed Apr 26 16:04:15 EDT 2000
  
  I would add Lalgudi jeyaraman's fusion album
  too.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Wed Apr 26 16:14:31 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth
  
  I enjoyed your observant postings. I would
  request your boss to give you lesser work!
  
  Longer postings, your voice finds enough
  time to present your viewpoints in a balanced
  way and it will prevent misunderstandings.
  
  Keep writing more,
  (Looks like Naveen, Kiru and others have
  real work to do!)
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 205.252.37.3) on: Wed Apr 26 16:43:36 EDT 2000
  
  rjay:
  You have done an admirable job of explaining something that most of us are usually too overwhelmed by to elucidate ! Your enthusiasm seems to have rubbed off on Srikanth too, which is very heartening to note ! After a *long* time, DFers are being treated to such wonderful discussions ! Keep it going !
  
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Wed Apr 26 16:49:27 EDT 2000
  
  rjay :
  A great tribute a masterpiece from rAjA.
  
  Some of the songs which I feel are in the same style :
  
  nAn undhan thAyAga vENdum - ullAsa paRavaigaL
  oru nAl unnOdu oru nAL - uRavAdum nenjam
  Oh nenjamE idhu un rAgamE
  
  rAjA's style has been well summarized as 'unified musical vision'. I have not heard any musician who even approaches this vision. LShankar, LSubramaniam, Ravi Shankar, Ananda Shankar nobody comes close.
  
  Ravi Shankar's albums with Yehudi Menuhin are very good though the 'fusion' part of it is pretty flaky. I feel that most of the time that they are playing Indian music on western instruments or with western style orchestration. The western classical aspect of the fusion is clearly lacking.
  
  When you talk about Ravi Shankar / Lalgudi Jayaraman can you talk about specific pieces/albums ?
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Wed Apr 26 16:51:09 EDT 2000
  
  yeah! our work now is to learn :-) (i am not talking for kiru and naveen). please continue.
  
  one more thing i notice in early raaja songs (like pEraich chollavA adhu nyAyamAgumA, AgAya gangai ...) when the charaNam starts (either the first or the second and never both and in case of three charaNamed songs in two of those charaNams), a solo violin WAY at the back accompanies the voice for the first two or three measures. you got to listen real close to identify this. eventhough this is beautiful, i wonder why raaja used to do this. was there any technical (rather technological) reason behind this?
  
  

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