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Scales Used in TFM

Topic started by SRIKANTH (@ 161.225.48.3) on Tue Jun 9 11:37:13 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hi ,

This is a technical topic. The MD's of TFM tend to use same scales for most of their songs.
Raja uses EMinor. He has done many songs in the E scale.
Why ?

AR. uses DMajor - Most of his songs are in the
D scale
Why ?

My answer to this is
Raja's natural singing scale is E ,
AR's is D ....


Shall we analyse more this


Srikanth

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Responses:

• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Tue Jun 9 19:12:41 EDT 1998
  
  Sorry Srikanth, I wish I knew more technical music stuff. I would pounce all over this thread if I did. This is the kind of discussion that I have been craving in the DF. Unfortuantely most threads rarely go the theory route. I will keep reading this anxiously though. Great topic.
  
  
• From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.135.224) on: Wed Jun 10 06:01:44 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth,
  
  I agree that Raja has done many songs in E. But
  I'm not able to digest that such a high pitch could be his natural scale. Maybe it is.
  
  could it be because these scales enable chord playing easy especially for guitarists? This
  however doesn't explain raja's preference for E.
  
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 161.225.48.3) on: Wed Jun 10 10:01:01 EDT 1998
  
  HI ,
  
  E is not a high scale---
  When you compare scores of MSV they are always above G or A ...
  TMS can handle a very high scale . Since MSV 's natural scale is also very high.. his composition were G or A oriented. Take the Siva samboo song in Ninaithale Inikkum...
  This songs touches very high notes...
  
  Raja - as you say if a song is in E the chords formation will be easy in a guitar..
  but this does not count as all the muscians are proffessionals ... they are capable of playing anything.
  
  In case of AR his some how loves D...
  
  (in my own scores! --- I will always tend to score in Bflat major..)--- Easy to play it on the keyboard..
  
  I will give a list of songs by Raja in E
  
  1. Nila adhu
  2. Thuli -E- le
  3. Veli nilave
  4. Konji Konji..
  5. Nenjikule
  6. Valai Osai - Sathya
  7.Onena nechu Pathu pathithen
  
  There are many more...
  (But this topic seems technical ... no one is posting....
  I should put the title as RAJA's great scales - E
  )
  Srikanth
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Wed Jun 10 16:33:18 EDT 1998
  
  Key depends on the singer and the interludes and what instruments are used for the song. Lot of times, compromise has to be made based on limitation of the musicians. For e.g, certain riffs are easier to play in the key of E or C or C#.
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Wed Jun 10 16:56:38 EDT 1998
  
  In continuation of my previous message, I can give you an example of a song "Vellai pura ondru" from a "Pudhu Kavitai". The song is in the key of F major except for one note. Instead of Bb, the song uses B. This scale is kalyani. If you recall, the song has rigorous keyboard run in the first interlude and it is easier to play, if all notes were white keys. F scale with the B makes it a natural choice. If the song has to be in the key of C, then B is mapped to F# which is a black key. Makes it a little difiicult to play the keyboard run. On the other hand, the song "Janani Janani" which is also in the same Rag is in the key of Eb major. I am sure that Raja had a valid reason. I do not think, that the observation, that Raja uses E scale or Rahman uses D scale is valid. On the side note, "Vellai pura ondru", has very interesting second interlude. The second interlude starts with a santoor piece. Raja plays F major followed D minor. D minor is the sixth chord in the key of F. Now, S Janaki takes over. It sounds as if the song is going out of context. It is still using the same notes of kalyani with a different reference i.e D minor. The chord then moves to A minor, C major (dominant chord of key of F). Now from dominant chord, he moves to the I chord, which is F. Now back in business with the saranam.
  
  A R Rahman has used this to his credit in the song "Chandranai Thotadhu Yaar Armstronga " from the movie "Ratchagan".
  
  Rahman uses this in the saranam. The line "Thee pandam ponravan naan , Deepam ...". The song takes you to a different reference point. The songs is in the key E. He uses the sixth chord C# minor for that line. Makes the song interesting.
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Wed Jun 10 17:09:30 EDT 1998
  
  In the album, "Vande Maatarama", the AR Rahman has a done brilliant song with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. The tune is same as one from Karuthamma. The song is in key of E. Usually, the composers tend to use the opening chord to be either the I chord (E) or the fifth chord (B) (SD Burman, another specimen like Raja). But Rahman starts the song with an unconventional sixth chord with added 7th, i.e C#7 minor. This goes with the children choir and then Fateh Ali Khan joins finally finishing in E major. Just brilliant.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 161.225.48.3) on: Fri Jun 12 11:49:55 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Everyone ,
  Since the above discussion with Sridhar became very much technical - I will try to explain it in simple terms.
  
  Scales - simply means Sruthi
  Most of us know or have heard 1 kat-tie Sruti or 4 kat-tie etc. 1 kat-tie means - a song set in the C scale. 1.5 = C# , 2 = D , 2.5=D# , 3=E and so.
  
  So I feel most of the MDS have stuck on to the same scale for most of their song. There might be various reason to use the same sruthi - MSV's scales were above - A or B - because singers who were there in his time were able to sing high pitches. His natural pitch was also same, (Pitch - The highest scale a singer could sing with pisuru)
  Raja has many songs in 3 ie E . If you have a keyboard at home, try playing nila athu vanathu mela or Konji Konji or Thuliyele all these songs are in E. What Sridhar says here all the mds start the song with a chord that relevant to the scale - In a E scale song the first chord will be a E-major or E-Minor. Most of the Rajas song are like that.
  AR starts always starts with an unconventional chord sometimes a 5th chord or even 6th or suspended chords. These kinds of chords can be found more in Jazz.
  If anyone wants to learn more on chords or scales etc. Please join the discussion and let us analyze how our TFM MDS match other world composers. I will answer all your technical questions, if any
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 117.newark-08.nj.dial-access.att.net) on: Sat Jun 13 21:13:24 EDT 1998
  
  Thanks for helping me there, Srikanth !!!
  
  -- Sridhar
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Sun Jun 14 01:34:41 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth and Sridhar
  
  I just saw your topic. As usual, Udhaya or Bharat say it. This time, Udhaya has brought the exact words I would have said. Brilliant topic and I want to learn more. This is actually the type of discussion I have been looking for in this Forum for purposes of learning what is that underlying musical pattern of Illaiyaraja's creation.
  
  My first question, how do you explain the two songs in their entirety:
  
  1.Sandan Kattre Santhosha Patte Va Vaa (Thanikkattu Raja)
  2. Vanam Kizhey Vandhal Yenna (Thoongathe Thambi Thoongathe)
  
  Then two other special numbers are:
  
  3. Vizhiyile Un Vizhiyile Mounam Yenna (I think Nooravathu Naal)
  4. Poo ooove, Poove Vaa Ragam Paada, Theyene, Theyene thaa thaalam poda or somethin (24 hours?)
  
  These four songs are absolutely brilliant, even beyond MSV's range.
  
  Can you guys please dissect these songs? I would like to ask you on some MSV and Salil Chowdhury songs too. Maybe, you could tell me what is that scale Salilda uses typically in all his compositions.
  
  Thank you folks.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.219) on: Mon Jun 15 00:56:58 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin,
  just to help u out ,I think the 4th song u mentioned is 'unaininaithen poove poove' by SPB,SJ from the film anbullarajnikanth,afantastic song.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Tue Feb 2 19:40:31 EST 1999
  
  Another unfortunately truncated thread. Hope it lives a long second life.
  
  
• From: muthax (@ user-38ld8s8.dialup.mindspring.com) on: Tue Feb 2 23:27:36 EST 1999
  
  Udhaya ungal thondu vaazhga valarga.
  
  
• From: muthax (@ user-38ld8s8.dialup.mindspring.com) on: Tue Feb 2 23:33:26 EST 1999
  
  "Raja's singing scale is E - so his songs are mainly in E Scale".
  
  Should i interpret that, since Raja composes the song (met amaikirathu), he naturally starts with E Scale.
  [I have seen some programmes in DD where the director tells the story(or situation) lyricist or the MD comesout with the lyrics or tune resply].
  If that is so, will all singers be able to adapt to the scale(whether higher or lower)?
  Or does sometimes the MDs compromise for the singers(spare BV).
  
  
• From: muthax (@ user-38ld8s8.dialup.mindspring.com) on: Tue Feb 2 23:35:23 EST 1999
  
  Iam a bathroom singer(people who have heard me singing will appreciate my sense of humour!!),
  if i have to findout what my scale is - with the help of my keyboard - how do i do it?
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ pool048-dwan1x2.800.dialup.earthlink.net) on: Wed Feb 3 02:04:39 EST 1999
  
  muthax, (and others)
  
  the normal indian male voice is in the C,C# range (1 or 1.5 katta range). Let me explain this further. Take the middle octave in a keyboard and let's say we are talking about C to C (one octave set). If you start with the middle C as Sa and let us say you start reproducing the notes vocally as you are going up (to the right) on the keyboard. You will find that after crossing the upper C now you are in the higher octave and let's say you continue upto say F in the higher octave. At this stage you are probably finding it a strain to sing alongwith the F note and the strain increases as you go further right (F#, G...). Let's say for discussion purposes that you cannot go beyond the F note.
  
  Now lets start the reverse process. You start with the middle C and start going down (towards left) ie. B, A#, A, G#, G, F#, F, etc. Let's say you cannot go down any further (as I said in my other post your chin is rubbing against your neck by now)
  
  Your range is now determined. It is as follows:
  Let me use the term L for lower Octave, M for middle and H for higher Octave.
  Your range is L-F to H-F and includes the notes
  
  LF,LF#,LG,LG#,LA,LA#,LB,MC,MC#.....MB,HC,HC#..HF.
  
  Normally, songs are composed either in the panchama or the madhyama scale. Simply stated, if the song is in the panchama scale, the song will have most of its presence in the middle Octave, but will frequently go into the lower and higher octaves. If a song is composed in the madhyama scale, it stays mainly in the middle octave and the lower octave but rarely goes into the higher Octave (even if it does, it will not go deep into it).
  
  If you are going to sing a song in the panchama scale (most carnatic songs are) and let's say you choose 'raaga dheepam Etrum vELAi' (I wanted to keep consistency in my example from another post). If you use C as Sa then you would notice that you can sing this song without having to touch beyond the High E, which is still within your range. However, if you wanted to sing say, Nila Adhu Vanaththu mElE, with C as Sa while you can sing the song, you will feel that the song sounds kind of low and that you could easily sing this song at a higher scale. This is because it is a madhyama scale song. If you select the F scale (the notes F,F,E,F,G#,F,G#,A#,G#) you find that you can sing the song comfortably.
  
  Coming to Srikanth's earlier post, when he started the topic, Nila Adhu is a madhyama scale song which many singers would prefer to sing in F or F#. Unfortunately, IR's pitch is not very high so he selected E for a madhyama song. On the contrary our kaattu katthal king ARR has a relatively higher pitch (as does Kamalahasan). So he sings even panchamam scale songs in D or D# (sometimes even beyind his pitch).
  
  When Kamalahasan sang Raja Kaiya Vachchaa (a madhyama scale song) he did it in A major which made it slightly higher for SPB who would have preferred to sing it in G major. But thanks to the world of track singing, he did'nt have a choice other than screaming beyond his natural scale.
  
  Hope the long post is of help.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on: Wed Feb 3 04:59:51 EST 1999
  
  pundits
  what about the singaravelan song, "pOttu vaiththa kaathal thittam ok kaNmaNi"? i think kamal scaled new peaks in pitch. pls to shed more light on this.
  
  

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