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who has vast range in music AR or Raaja ??

Topic started by Kiran (@ 161.142.100.86) on Wed Jan 23 23:38:41 EST 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Guys,
Raaja is famous for experimenting in many ways. He covered a good range of different TYPES in music. But AR seems to be more in this , as he scored for Advertisement initially , films ,and in pop working with Michael jackson , sufi music with Nusrath fateh ali , Hindi film music with top directors , classical songs (like in INDIRA , SANGAMAM, PADAYAPPA etc) and many various fields with various people....SO DO U THINK HE OVERTOOK RAAJA IN THE RANGE OF DIFFERENT MUSIC ???

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Responses:

• From: Ashok (@ 161.142.100.86) on: Wed Jan 23 23:43:32 EST 2002
  
  I am afraid AR really overtook IR in this point. He was compatible with all sort of directors from bharathiraaja to subash ghai , and all sort of music from ads to film to english pop , and all levels from classical to modern ....SO he definetly overtook IR !!
  
  
• From: kk (@ 172.173.149.203) on: Thu Jan 24 00:16:16 EST 2002
  
  Agreed ARR made some carnatic music. But it was just bare minimum. Was there any Sindu bhairavi or sagara sangamam?. How about folk? just one or two and didnt do anything great. WCM? same may be here and there. Does compare with other full time sufi or gawali players? no. Jazz, rock and other style? quiet a bit. Musical? Looks promising.
  
  IR in carnatic, only sankarabaranam can come in comparison. Folk? the begining and end. Fusion? he is name of the game. WCM? well we got the wait for the symphony but, he's been there, done that and appreciated by john scott and the likes.
  
  I think whatever IR tried and did, he did it to a respectable completion, not just touch and go.
  
  
• From: Venkatesh (@ 212.72.11.66) on: Thu Jan 24 00:57:59 EST 2002
  
  Some of the genres not attempted well by ARR:
  
  1) Bakthi padangal (ofcourse, there is no chance for these films nowadays)
  2) Village-oriented movies (trouser padam)
  3) Art movies a la Mahendran, Balu Mahendra, K.Vishwanath, etc.
  4) Documentary kind of movies
  5) Period movies (ARR might have done Lagaan, Iruvar, etc but not enough)
  6) Suspense/Thriller movies (like Sivappu Rojakkal, Poovizhi vasalile, etc)
  7) Pei padangal (eg Uruvam, etc)
  8) Highly emotional, sentiments-intensive movies (has ARR done anything?)
  
  May be some. Most of the genres are not existing now. IR has given all of the above + good music to some very very low profile movies.
  
  
• From: Its Me (@ 192.11.189.114) on: Thu Jan 24 01:55:00 EST 2002
  
  guyz,
  If a MD does 800+ films he will definitely score well above other MDs, when it comes to statistics... What has to be seen here is that ARR has done only 50+ films but has covered most of the aspects of music in these...
  Listen to Andhi Mandharai.. out and out carnatic...some songs in KKKK too... He has composed carnatic based songs in many other films...
  Listen to Iruvar for jazz..And fusion is everywhere in all his works...hindustani + ghazals in his hindi works...e.g. zubeidaa, taal, lagaan... He has given folk music in Taj Mahal, Kilakku seemaiyile..And from the feel of the songs in KM, it looks to be very emotional to me...And he has done some Muslim Bakthi music like Deen isai maalai..
  
  He looks to me as the most versatile MD in India who can handle any type of assignment...
  
  (Credits: Some of the examples given here are directly taken from a controversial thread. Hope the author of that thread has not copyrighted them :o) )
  
  
• From: peeps (@ 203.199.207.198) on: Thu Jan 24 02:12:49 EST 2002
  
  Its me,
  Who asked ARR to do less films?U cant take the number of movies into account..Lets take the first 10 years of both of them..IR excels ARR by a vast margin in touching most of the aspects in music and did it well too..
  
  
• From: avr (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Thu Jan 24 02:17:02 EST 2002
  
  ITS ME:
  Where has ARRcomposed ghazals?? Please tell me.
  I dont think any song from zubeidaa,taal,lagaan qualifies as a ghazal.
  
  as far as hindustani classical goes, the only one that comes to my mind is radha kaise na jale, or maybe deem ta dare dani deem from takshak. But the latter is pretty patchy - IMHO of course.
  
  
• From: srini (@ 195.229.240.243) on: Thu Jan 24 02:24:56 EST 2002
  
  AR is doing what IR did when he started. Redefining the film music cliches. THere will be someone who will make AR look obsolete. IR did it with folk & AR is doing it with Western.
  
  To me, IR is the man, god pointed to & said 'you are the one'. AR grew up in a city & in a musical family & had the options to learn all forms of music formally. IR is from a remote village in Thiruvarur & now he is writing symphonies. He obviously took time to learn other forms of music in terms of range. This is not to say AR is any less talented.
  
  Personally, the appeal of AR's songs dont last more than a year or two. No idea why.
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 132.235.18.15) on: Thu Jan 24 02:27:29 EST 2002
  
  Kiran, why do u wanna determine who has vast range in music in the first place? Any specific reason?? Instead of arguing whos better, it wud be better for us if we discuss their music, the innovative things they have done.
  
  
• From: srini (@ 195.229.240.243) on: Thu Jan 24 02:32:03 EST 2002
  
  I know the discussion is IR v/s AR. But think about MSV's range. He did everything without technological help. Carnatic, WCM, Jazz, Hindustani & of course, Rock 'n' roll (Remember 'Visvanathan Velai venum)
  
  
• From: Cheenu (@ 203.199.205.25) on: Thu Jan 24 02:44:05 EST 2002
  
  VIKRAM HAS DONE VERY WELLIN "KASI". PEOPLE SAY EVEN KAMAL DID NOT DO SO WELL IN "RAAJA PAARVAI" OR SIVAJI IN "PAALUM PAZHAMUM".
  
  DOES IT MEAN THAT HE HAS OVERTAKEN SIVAJI AND KAMAL?
  
  
• From: vengayam (@ 203.200.84.66) on: Thu Jan 24 02:49:36 EST 2002
  
  Enga OOr Raa Pichakkaran. Podum daa saami. Kavundamaniye than kuppidanum ungallellam thitaradukku. Javvattam vidave maatingalla?
  After thought: how about Enga OOr Raa Picchakkaran as Rama rajan's next movie title. IR can compose music,GA can direct& the Ir fans can produce.
  
  
• From: Its Me (@ 192.11.189.114) on: Thu Jan 24 03:05:26 EST 2002
  
  avr,
  I think 'Chhodo More Baiyyan' from Zubeidaa is a ghazal...( soundz Meera Bhajan kinda ) And 'Kariye Naa' from Taal is based on hindustani... And he has done qawwali style in Varaha Nadhi and "Piya haaji ali - Fiza"
  All IMHO
  
  
• From: avr (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Thu Jan 24 03:23:05 EST 2002
  
  Its me:
  
  Chhodod mori bainyaan from Zubeidaa is a thumri-like tune, but not a very great one IMO. Meera Bhajans & ghazals are 2 totally different things.
  
  "Kariye naa" based on Hindustani?? I dont think so. Could u please elaborate?
  
  
• From: ambleen (@ 202.95.121.98) on: Thu Jan 24 03:31:41 EST 2002
  
  For a start, you can't compare a composer to an arranger.
  
  It ends here.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.4.217) on: Thu Jan 24 04:30:00 EST 2002
  
  One of the musical variety that has maximum `real time application' is thAlAttu. I think this is one area where ARR is yet to open his account...(No need to talk about MSV or IR & their thAlAttukaL)
  
  
• From: Pras (@ 193.56.241.19) on: Thu Jan 24 05:28:15 EST 2002
  
  Sam,
  i agree with you !
  We should talk about what innovative things they have done ...
  ready to start a thread ??
  
  
• From: kk (@ 198.4.92.5) on: Thu Jan 24 09:49:39 EST 2002
  
  eden,
  kadhalan had a thalatu.
  
  
• From: Chiyan (@ 210.186.103.1) on: Thu Jan 24 11:29:35 EST 2002
  
  Guys Pls Do not Compare Vikram With Kamal ....
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 132.235.18.15) on: Thu Jan 24 14:18:23 EST 2002
  
  Me ready Pras, we cud discuss that in this thread itself. For a start, in the Kariye Na song mentioned in this thread, the background is done only with percussion instruments of course except for a occasional flute and a string instrument. Quiet a number of percussion instruments are used. And in the song "Priyatamaa" in the telugu movie "Jagadeka veerudu athiloka sundari", observe how raja changes the meter right at the start of the charanam, and brings it back to the original meter after the first two lines. Even rahman did that in PP. These may not be innovative (in the sense of 'new') but they are definitely creative.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Thu Jan 24 14:33:11 EST 2002
  
  Guys..it is not polite to talk about one's capability (who has range ? etc).IMHO. But you can always talk about their work, like what Sam, was saying. Even though I think, I understand, ARR's music, I'd rather talk about IR's music because it is his music I listen to more often.
  IMO, IR's approach to music is very 'fundamental' or what people call as approaching from 'first principles'. One example, that is very obvious and many people here have discussed is the harmony angle that IR brings to his composition. If you listen to rock music, you know how the bass guitar is used to keep up the rhythm, IR has used the same techniques, but he has used it to provide harmony to even melodies (as pointed out by a good friend of mine). This is a very important aspect of his music. I think a majority of his compositions come with a 'mathematically' correct harmony layer (what I mean, the bass is not random. If you analyse the tune and the chords there will be a good mathematical correclation,I think). If you talk to any musician (especially people who play in kutchEris, they would tell you it is the chords in IRs compositions which are difficult to get. The bass line for example can also be likened to the 'basso continuous' (or some latin expression like that) in in Baroque Music. There are other aspects of WCM which he has exploited very well in his music.
  In terms of the main tune, IR, I think is very good at keeping the tune 'straight' throughout the song. Like, if he picks up on a rAgam or a derivative of it, he makes sure the whole song is done using the swaras of that rAgam. This is one of the indicators of a good composition. He has also played with sruthibEdham etc (see raaja.com for a detailed writeup).
  When I bought some Mozart CDs, I also bought a book to learn to appreciate it. Similarly, IRs music also should be approached with a similar seriousness,IMHO. For starters, I think, any fan of fine music, should listen to the foll. songs along with the comment/notes of Guitar Prasanna.
  
  http://raajangahm.com/guitarprasanna/favo_songs.html
  
  (I am posting in this thread, because it seems only the controversial threads seem to get any readership :))
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 132.235.18.15) on: Thu Jan 24 15:20:46 EST 2002
  
  Some of the good examples for bass guitar in ARR's songs,
  1.Kaadhal Sadugudu in AlaiPayuthey(with good amount of slides and slaps. Keith peters played in this song.)
  2.Thi thi from thiruda thiruda
  3. Kannalane from Bombay. (follow the baseline for the line "vaaypillaiyae" in the pallavi, pure magic, also follow the bass work in the first interlude, simple picking, muted slaps and a ringing slap in the end).And by the way did anyone observe the acoustic guitar in this song?
  
  Guys, Prassanna, Keith Peters, Naveen etc are all masters in their field. I think their judgement and discernment is better than ours, and if they are willing to play for Rahman's and Raja's compositions, dont u think its foolish on our part to call that music all those stupid things??
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Jan 24 18:08:44 EST 2002
  
  Sam, I would request you to take up some selected works of IR and ARR for a good analysis. We could even revive some old threads where these were discussed earlier.
  
  

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