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Paadagarin Sangathi

Topic started by Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on Mon Jun 14 15:44:48 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

After reading some exciting exchanges in threads comparing Hariharan and TMS to SPB, I was wondering if classically trained singers and musicians in our DF could shed more light on singers and their unique signature sangathis. For example, a singer friend of mine frowned that SJ gave the same sangathi 3 or 4 times consecutively without opting for variations when she winds down the song "Panneeril nanaindha pookkal mella sirikka". On the other extreme I've heard the charge that Hariharan gives more sangathi than is needed in a song. Can you guys give examples of your favorite/irritating use of sangathis by singers so ignorants like myself can identify what each singer brings to a song?

An easier way to do this might be to take the same song sung by two different singers, but the discussion need not be limited to just comparing different singers singing the same song. Please do take into account singers of different eras and both male and female singers.

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Responses:

• From: lottu (@ global22.citicorp.com) on: Mon Jun 14 16:08:09 EDT 1999
  
  What is "Sangathi" ?
  
  
• From: thathuvavaathi (@ 207.247.192.237) on: Tue Jun 15 11:19:16 EDT 1999
  
  you know... one's own "stuff" :-))
  
  
• From: Hari (@ 129.100.4.10) on: Tue Jun 15 22:30:52 EDT 1999
  
  Udhaya,
  
  Almost every MD provides singers with the basic melody and then the singers improvise in some of the phrasings. The one exception is IR, who operates in a very western-classical way: music rendered the way it is written. In a recording that I saw, he had a guy with a harmonium coach the chorus while he coached the MV. Even he, in his early days allowed people like SPB to romp around in songs (witness the atrocious singing by SPB in the classical songs in Kadhal oviyam, compare that with the perfection of, say, ezhumalaiyan mahimai).
  
  Even now there are some songs where the singers seem to improvise. I am surprised by your mention of SJ. She is one of the best. A great example is the duet by SPB and SJ "poo poo poo" from pudhu nellu pudhu naathu where they make so many modifications on the pallavi. Another example for SJ is maniye manikuyile. SPB and SJ are the best in TFM when it comes to modifications. Followed by PS. The all time best, ever, is of course Asha Bhosle. Even she is restrained under IR (for the better, IMO).
  
  The worst offenders in terms of lack of creativity are Lata Mangeshkar and Swarna Latha.
  A simple example for Swarnalatha: listen to the song "povoma oorgolam" from Chinna thambi. Compare what she does with the word "oorgolam" and what SPB does with it (over the course of the song). She says the word in exactly the same way throughout the song. God she is insufferable!
  Chitra, when not under check, can sound really stupid (any song of Deva)... to some extent that is also true of SPB and Rafi.
  
  Hari
  
  
• From: aruvi (@ spc-isp-tor-uas-73-24.sprint.ca) on: Tue Jun 15 22:54:14 EDT 1999
  
  Hari
  
  I don't seem to grasp your arguement. Lack of creativity you say. But I only think that it is the amount of freedom given to a singer that matters. If they are encouraged to give there own stuff, then they will. I mean, in reference to Udhaya saying that Hariharan puts a lot of 'sangathis', ARR gave him that freedom because Hari is a ghazal singer well accustomed to it. But on the other hand, singers who sing for other MD's are not given the freedom or the background to improvise the song. I remember Srikanth or someone saying that in the song 'thanka magan' from 'baadsha' it is only KJY and Chitra's work that makes the song good. Plus, SPB and Janaki have always been given songs where there own skills are put to use. But I am still curious as to how you know if it was the singer who put the sangathi's in or if it was the MD's direction. Anyhow, you had stated that Chitra does not give sangathi's well. Please listen to songs from 'kalki' and 'maahan' and umpteen other ones and you will see that there is improvisation. But I still feel that it is the MD that tells them to sing in a certain manner. The only time I have heard singers improvise is on stage.
  
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ gateway7.ey.com) on: Wed Jun 16 10:41:21 EDT 1999
  
  Hari,
  Here are some examples of Chitra's extra sangathi
  1. Mallargalle Mallargalle (Love Birds)
  2. Kannallene... (Bombay)
  
  You can see her performing to perfection as even stated by ARR himself in the Stage in a concert in Malaysia
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Wed Jun 16 13:13:29 EDT 1999
  
  Hari, aruvi, Dorai,
  You guys are taking this thread in the exact way I hoped it would go. Thanks a lot for the very informative posts. I'm looking forward to more such posts.
  
  
• From: Hari (@ 129.100.4.10) on: Wed Jun 16 20:15:00 EDT 1999
  
  In re. Chitra, when I said any song of Deva, I was exaggerating quite a bit. (Deva is everybody's favourite whipping boy!) But seriously:
  
  It is difficult to distinguish between the MD's projection of a song and the creativity of the singers. But not impossible. Certainly in duets, it is possible to detect creativity. For instance, the duet by Uma Ramanan and Swarna Latha in Pudhu patti... you can see the difference between the two. SwarnaLatha strikes the same note(s). Also, the example from chinna thambi before. (An aside, she is the only tamil singer I know who takes palpable breadths in songs, a definite no no. Ex. the duet unnai thottu with SPB.)
  
  Coming back to Chitra, there was a telugu movie called Aswamedham in the early nineties. She had sung a duet in it. This was dubbed into tamil (dharma bhoomi) and she and Mano sang all the songs. IR was definitely not involved in the dubbing. (Evidence: VM was the lyricist.) Chitra sounds awful in the tamil version of the song. In fact, she is quite bad in every song. The originals of the other songs were song by Asha and SJ. (I don't even want to get into what Mano accomplished.) Surely, she had a freer reign in dubbed version, where they just dubbed the voices.
  In my Devadhai CD, there is another movie called unnaiye kalynam...MD-ed by Maragathamani. She has sung a duet with Hariharan. Their combined excesses make a perfectly good melody sound very bad.
  
  Needless to say, all this is my subjective opinion.
  
  
• From: Praveen (@ bay9-28.dial.umd.edu) on: Wed Jun 16 22:36:00 EDT 1999
  
  Hari,
  Just a small correction. MD of unnaiye kalyanam pannikaren is Sandeep chowtha not Maragadhamani. It is the dubbed version of a telugu movie "Ninne Pelladutha". Hariharan was horrible, trying his own improvisations in that song.
  
  
• From: Hari (@ 129.100.4.10) on: Wed Jun 16 23:12:02 EDT 1999
  
  Praveen,
  
  Thanks for the info. I checked my CD now and to my horror found that there was no mention of the MD. I guess I must have pegged it as Maragathamani. Anyway, I think this is a very good tune marred by rank bad rendering. Did they sing the original? Can you compare the two versions?
  Have you heard aswamedham and its tamil counterpart?
  
  Hari
  
  
• From: bb (@ compq1.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Sun Jun 20 03:26:04 EDT 1999
  
  more examples of new singers being allowed to improvise and add their sangathis:
  harini in "manam virumbudhE unnai" song,
  nithyashree in kannOdu kaanbadhellaam song.
  i must say that their improvisations did add flavor to the song.
  
  
• From: babu (@ 198.153.135.50) on: Tue Jun 22 02:35:34 EDT 1999
  
  I am surprised to read about Swarnalatha's lack of inprovisation. Have you heard 'anjathe jeeva' in Jodi ? Just the line 'ovvoru kAlaiyin pOdhum un mArbil nAn thUnga vEndum' is enough proof that she is capable of improvising (esp the words 'un mArbil'). She was good in 'Indian' and a couple of other songs too. Of course she cannot be compared to SJ. Janaki is the ultimate in such things. Re: Chitra, I read in one of her interviews that SJ has told her about her lack of improvosing and of late I see a lot of change in her way of singing. PS is the worst in TFM (when it comes to modulations) IMO
  
  
• From: karthi (@ 1cust133.tnt1.rantoul.il.da.uu.net) on: Tue Jun 22 03:45:34 EDT 1999
  
  babu, I would be glad if you could define what improvisation is! Is improvisation the same as modulation? You are wrong if you say they are. You are still wrong if you said no and that PS was the worst in that in TFM. I doubt what songs of PS you have taken into account for this! You should understand that improvisation cannot be brought into all the songs that a singer sings. There should be scope for that in the song itself. If he/she tries to bring in improvisation where it's not warranted then it's sure to spoil the song - like SPB does many times. Improvisation should not spoil the mood of the song. And PS knows better what she does when she delivers the goods.
  
  
• From: karthi (@ 1cust133.tnt1.rantoul.il.da.uu.net) on: Tue Jun 22 03:46:21 EDT 1999
  
  Again, improvisation can be in any form, not necessarily sangathis.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.131) on: Tue Jun 22 08:11:02 EDT 1999
  
  Karthi: Question on sangathi stuff in the same old song we had talked about earlier ...(You know I'm a no-knowledge-guy): Did the word `Kaanatha nenju' in Raasathi onne had any sangathi stuff? If so, how do you compare JC & PS? (I'm asking a question knowing the answer:-)))
  
  
• From: Praveen (@ tigris.isr.umd.edu) on: Tue Jun 22 10:31:06 EDT 1999
  
  Hari,
  Sorry I did not see your response. Regarding Ninne Pelladutha, I have heard only the original Version, I haven't heard the Tamil version. Also I have not heard Aswamedham. Maybe some of the DFers, who listen to both TeFM and TFM, may be able to throw more light regarding this.
  
  
  
• From: aruvi (@ spc-isp-tor-uas-81-9.sprint.ca) on: Tue Jun 22 12:13:50 EDT 1999
  
  Babu
  
  I too agree that CHITRA has certainly improved over the years. I am now listening to her latest song from 'Nenjinile' on the net. It's at Ramiy's homepage. The song is great and Chitra and UnniK. do an awesome job.
  
  
• From: karthi (@ 1cust224.tnt1.rantoul.il.da.uu.net) on: Tue Jun 22 20:16:20 EDT 1999
  
  Eden, in the same way you compare the line "kannukkoru vannakkiLi....NAANDHAANAIYYA". I am a "no knowledge" guy too.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.28.53) on: Wed Jun 23 02:34:48 EDT 1999
  
  in my opinion, SJ and SPB were the best in improvising on sangathis. i agree with aruvi in that, given a chance or freedom all these singers are capable of giving different sangathis. these guys are all pros and talented obviously. arguing whether they are capable of giving different sangathis are not does not appeal to me. u can perhaps compare between the singers and perhaps say who gives more sangathis. in general SPB is known for his 'konashtais' and the various things that he does in a song. a nice sangathi which i noted recently:
  
  in the song 'neelakuyile unnodu thaan'(SPB,SJ) from the film magudi, the second line goes like
  'naadhapunalil andradam naan neeraduven'.
  the first time around both these singers sing this line flat out without any gamakas. but the second time, both give a little gamaka at the end of 'andradam' which adds a touch of beauty to this line. and SJ's sangathi sounds better to me.
  
  
• From: aruvi (@ spc-isp-tor-uas-74-34.sprint.ca) on: Wed Jun 23 03:33:11 EDT 1999
  
  Udhaya, I got it!
  
  Do check the song in the following link and tell me if that is also what you refer to as sangathis. I am wondering if it has anything to do with the emotions being portrayed in the song.
  
  At www.kural.org/ please check out the preview of the song 'Paatudaithalaivi'. Thanks.
  
  

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