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Topic started by Ravi (@ envy.cs.umass.edu) on Tue Apr 27 11:26:51 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

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Responses:

• From: Srinath (@ ss08.nc.us.ibm.com) on: Tue Apr 27 11:44:49 EDT 1999
  
  Hey Ravi ! You made me look like the villain of the whole piece ! :-))
  
  Geetha:
  Please repost your questions here and let me see if I can answer them.
  
  Ravi, is it OK if I invite Raj and a couple of others over to this thread ? :-) Geetha can also do set-serththufying if she wants :-)) BTW, please keep tabs on those domains that access this thread. I have a feeling that a lot of people are going to come in here to watch us "fight" ;-)))
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Tue Apr 27 11:50:16 EDT 1999
  
  Ravi/Srinath: bb has very kindly offered to cut and paste all the stuff. Thanks bb.
  
  Srinath and co....Hope it will be as interesting as yesterday and as friendly too.
  
  By the way, any 'hurtful' or 'sarky' comments from me, let me apologise in advance and say that they mean no harm....
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ ss08.nc.us.ibm.com) on: Tue Apr 27 11:52:33 EDT 1999
  
  Hey Geetha ! Fair enough ! The apologies for "sarky" or "hurtful" comments go for me too !
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Tue Apr 27 11:53:21 EDT 1999
  
  How is it that "What IR needs is a good movie. Not a miracle" - Your quote? Please feel free to go ahead and give me GOOD REASONS AS TO WHY:
  
  1) he does not stop doing 'rubbish' movies? And so many of them.....And I don't want to hear that he's too poor and that he needs to do all types of 'rubbish' because it's his bread and butter.
  
  2) he cannot give good music to these 'rubbish' movies?
  
  3) he doesn't respect the TAMILS enought to give them the quality of music he gives the Malayalees? Isn't he a Tamilian, who owes his best work to the Tamils and not to others?
  
  4) he(The legend) re-cycles his own tunes in movies, like one song in Poonthottam, which I have even forgotten the name of?
  
  5) he has used the similar Beat pattern and Raga of Mustafa Mustafa in Ilavernikaalapanchami in MVU? Is that not trying to be ARRish? As for Diana Diana, even if not note for note, there is a similarity to Oru Mani Adithal....I wonder if Deva copied from IR then IR re-cycles his own piece in Diana, hence, as Deva's was the most recent sounding similar, we have noticed the resemblence????? This is not a sarky comment....
  
  6) When you guys call any Carnatic song(not specifically you, Raj) by ARR(e.g. Minsaara Kanna, Narumughaye), IRRish and get so upset when I quote that 'Sorgathille' sounds ARRish? Would you have preferred me to say Vidhyasaagarish(he's done lots of Mayamalavagowla Musilim sounding songs) or Devaish, he tries to put a number like that in most of his films?
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Tue Apr 27 11:56:41 EDT 1999
  
  Ravi: Where did my response to my un-intelligent questions go? The repeat posting? I wanted Srinath to read it.....boooohooooohoooo
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Tue Apr 27 11:58:58 EDT 1999
  
  Thanks Srinath. Sorry that the post with my talking about truce was deleted....
  
  Please ask raj to answer those questions as they were posted to him. I'd appreciate your opinion on them too.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ ss08.nc.us.ibm.com) on: Tue Apr 27 12:13:28 EDT 1999
  
  Geetha: A small hint. Ravi has put his comments on them ;-)) If you are a web programmer, you'll understand and be able to see them ! Hey ! your exclusion from an intelligent discussion does NOT make you unintelligent. The question of your absence comes only because you are considered to belong in an intelligent discussion !
  
  Ravi:
  Idhu konjam somberi thanam thaan ;-)) But who can blame you with so many posts begging to be deleted :-))) NOM !
  
  
• From: bb (@ bernstein.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Tue Apr 27 12:33:08 EDT 1999
  
  ravi veettukku kuLikka pOyirukkaar:))) i did the dirty job:)
  geetha, what else do u want me to reinstate here?
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ ss03.nc.us.ibm.com) on: Tue Apr 27 13:42:15 EDT 1999
  
  Geetha, I believe Raj expects a personal invite from you :-) You can mail him at -
  Rajesh-Srinivasan@deshaw.com
  I guess only then he will be convinced that the two of you can discuss peacefully :-)
  
  1. IR cannot afford to stop doing rubbish movies. These are practically the only people who still owe an alleigance to him. But IR has been known to do rubbish movies in the past as personal favours too.
  
  2. His style is not very well received these days and he requires a good vehicle to carry his music to the masses. Eg., Kathalukku Mariyathai. IR's knowledge does not come down in any way just because he is unable to produce hit music these days. Just think about it - if you and I can find out so many flaws in his songs, would it be all that difficult for him to realize it ? Surely, he knows that his music is not successful - but atleast he tries to be original instead of depending on catchy bits from other sources which could surely make his songs attractive too. Personally, I don't care if his music is poor these days - his genius and superiority over MSV, ARR, Deva, Vidyasagar and everyone else has ALREADY been proved. He is unable to find inspiration or motivation or that inexplicable magical source of music that he had a few years back. Does that reduce that musical qualities of the man as such ? Every genius will find himself at the end of the road one day. But what matters is the distance that he travelled. IR cannot score good music for rubbish movies any more. Law of nature. Period.
  
  3. This has already been answered by me. Probably, Malayalam directors know how to trigger the last dying vestiges of creativity in this great musician, to give music that makes the heart go thump once more. Fazil did it for a Tamizh movie. Why couldn't anyone else ? What about all the bazillion tributes that this man paid to his Tamizh fans in the past 20 years ? Don't they count for anything ? Compared to that, what MFM is getting is only the remnants !
  
  4. Re-cycling is an evil by-product of such large-scale composing. IR is after all IR. I dread to think how many times he might have invariably come up with a similar violin piece for a sad emotion and then had to change it after recognizing it from an older song of his :-) It is bound to happen. 750+ movies and I don't blame the man for recycling a few tunes. OTOH, there are some people who recycle others' works :-) like Deva. Or ARR who has not even composed for 100 movies and is beginning to recycle his own music.
  
  5. Have you listened to "Poongatru Veesum, ponnmaalai neram" from Mr.Madras (?) :-) I think it would have been like this IR -> S-G -> CB -> Deva -> Vidyasaagar -> Deva -> xyz -> Deva (some time in the future) ! Let's not get into the specifics of 4 notes sounding similar, 3 different and then 1.5 notes similar again etc. There are some things that do not happen in this world. One such thing is IR copying from Deva. It may show a paucity of new tunes from IR, but to misconstrue it as a copy from Deva's "masterpiece" is sheer absurdity !
  
  6. I can accept IR sounding ARRish - and I say that it is bad for IR. I have given more detailed explanations for this in the ARR's influence on IR thread
  
  Now my only argument is that if the same accusations were thrown at ARR he cannot provide a single response to it. He has recycled, he has composed rubbish songs for rubbish movies, he prefers composing for the hindi market, he uses a lot of non-tamizh singers !, hardly any of his beat patterns have been composed originally - most of them just copied, modified and pasted, he sounds like every other MD in the market today. If you claim that he is the original, then I can only say that he has created something that can easily be reproduced by someone else (eg., Aasai), whereas IR has been truly inimitable over 20 years. It is only recently that IR is following the trend.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Tue Apr 27 13:51:43 EDT 1999
  
  Hi All: I have finally found my way here:-)) Since a lot has happened here behind myback, I insist that before embarking on my opinions on the issues Geetha has raised, I be updated and completely put in light as to the deleted posts and their content. Besides the part of the discussion involving "My response to..questions", "If you know web-programming..." are completely over my head. "Ravi kulikka poyirukkaar" is quite comprehensible..."BB kulikka pogaama ingeye time passings" is also comprehensible.
  
  Srinath: I certainly didnt expect you'll so easily bell the cat:-))).
  
  Geetha: One thing I want to state very clearly to you...never did I harbour any personal animosity towards you- either for being a woman or for 'being an ARR Fan'. I hope that is settled once and for all.
  
  That settled, to answer your questions....
  3. " he doesn't respect the TAMILS enought to give them the quality of music he gives the Malayalees? Isn't he a Tamilian, who owes his best work to the Tamils and not to others? "
  
  
  IR is an artist. His primary responsibility is towards is art. To create a good canvas, a painter needs inspiration. Particularly so in a field like Film Music. If the movie doesnt inspire him, you cannot expect him to provide class music to it. He cannot, paraphrasing an earlier post with a slight twist, give a Sindhu Bhairavi for Sakala Kala Valavan theme. He is being provided with these in MFM. Hence he comes up with solid good stuff there. Do you know the story of ChinnaDurai? I have not seen the movie but I have read enough about it. It doesnt deserve good music. It didnt get it. Infact the Ananda Vikatan review for it was " Indha padathukku ivvalavu podhumnu ninaichuttar polirukku Raja"
  
  Very well then, Why dont they make a movie like Guru in Tamil? Now, Guru may or may not be a great film. But it had a novel , interesting and inspiring theme... Aroona Kirana deepam song occurs when the hitherto unsighted people of the 'blind valley' realise the powr of Eye Sight. And that is the kind of situation that is going to inspire Raja. What does he get in Tamil?
  Chinna Durais and Kaathal Kavithais. ..BTW, I cant accept that these telephonic love, e-mail love etc.as inspiring themes.
  
  IMO(how I hate this phrase!), Tamil moviedom is in such a disarray that even a talented moviemaker like Manirathnam is forced to resort to gimmickry to survive(BB, there you have me:)))
  
  So, the ANSWER:
  
  IR is not Tamils' property just as Mozart wasn't
  Germany's. He is a musician...He'll score music for a movie as he sees fit for the movie. If the movie is good, the music will automatically be(Raja being Raja)... I challenge that anyone bring up a recent good score of Raja which was bad inspite of an inspiring theme. Nobody can...and I can swear my Life on it:)))
  
  So, this bit about IR owing to Tamils is mere jingoism as far as I can see(I would like to hear BB's views on this issue..but BB being a moderator perhaps cannot involve himelf this way or that?)
  
  IR is an artist. He owes whatever he owes to Lovers of Art. Period.
  
  Just a moment before I sign off for the day:
  I know what the immediate corollary repartees to this would be:
  
  1."In those days he gave SindhuB along with SKV. Why cant he give an album similar to SB with CD?"
  
  Because nobody is making a SindhuB today...as simple as that, if you sit and think of it...
  
  2." If ARR can give 'good music'[I have my reservations about that:)) ] , why cant Raja give good music for bad movies?"
  
  (BTW, I went through the experience of listening to KD today .I must say I was least impressed. I heard them twice...on tape,btw not on the net. I cant remember a single tune now. The rest of it ,as someone mentioned somewhere else, is mere details. If I cannot remember the tune after two concerted efforts to hear it, then what do I call it?)
  
  Raja has done this enough number of times. He doesnt have to prove himself in this direction again. There are hundreds(yeah!Hundreds, not tens, dozens or scores) of bad movies where he has given good music. Compared to those numbers, the total number of movies where Rahman has given good music will pale into insignificance..even if you bring in factors such as "First eight years of existence", "percentage" etc.
  
  This will immediately link us to the first question:"Why does he have to do such rubbish movies?"
  
  This is a question that , sadly, Srinath or I cannot answer. But that cannot give you licence to question his talent. He may have a hundred reasons from financial insecurity to a vested interest in disappointing Raj, Srinath and Geetha:-))). (And BB, too.Paavam Avanai mattum enn set-ukku veliya vuttu vekkanum:-))))
  
  "And I don't want to hear that he's too poor and that he needs to do all types of 'rubbish' because it's his bread and butter. "
  
  Nor do I. But our wishes to the contrary cannot rule out such a possibility, can they?
  
  More later.
  
  Ironically, just when we stop personal bickerings and discuss the issue in hand amicably, we are forced to a new thread:-)))
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: SRK (@ netcache.doit.wisc.edu) on: Tue Apr 27 14:01:03 EDT 1999
  
  Srinath: IR's philosophy is this (and this was told me by his guitarist - Purushottam's brother): I always give the same thing, people take what they want to.
  
  So MFM guys are able to inspire him better nowadays and teh result is clear. That is why in TFM you have rehashes of old tunes with new colorations unlike MFM which is still fresh. They will be failures since people are used to those tunes.
  
  I don't think IR believes that classical songs will succeed today in TFM (which is maybe true) and that only pop music will. That is why, IMO, he is giving the music that he is. Which is why you have these "general" songs that can suit any situation. I think he also believes that KM and KK were successful because they were scored in this style.
  
  

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