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Did MSV have ANY musical defects?

Topic started by SR Kaushik (@ nova1.cs.wisc.edu) on Wed Sep 30 15:21:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Let me make one thing clear: I am not against MSV, but am merely curious about this topic.

I have made an interesting observation. We have so many criticisms of IR and ARR, but I've not seen any criticism of MSV. I haven't listened to many MSV songs, but I wasn't very impressed by whatever I have heard on TV. Whatever it is, I cannot imagine that he did not have any musical defects. Could anyone point them out? I am very interested. It might test the "objectivity" of certain "objective" people regarding the IR-ARR "war"(I'm not hinting at anyone, please do not misunderstand this), but nevertheless, I want to pursue this.

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Responses:

• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Wed Sep 30 15:48:19 EDT 1998
  
  MSV produced many uninspired works towards the tail end of his reign and pretty much fell into a complacent rut (approximately from 1977 to 1982). A few saving graces were the soundtracks for movies made by K.Balachandhar, Muktha. Also a few Sivaji movies.
  
  Background music was never his strong suit. I have come out of the theater with a throbbing headache many a times because of MSV's shrieking violins and drums for stunts and tragic sequences.
  
  Recording quality was very mediocre even for many of his great compositions. That he didn't encourage many new singers or songwriters could also be charge on him.
  
  I'm not quite qualified to speak of ragams and chord progression, I'll leave that to the pundits.
  
  Objectively yours,
  Udhaya
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Wed Sep 30 16:21:34 EDT 1998
  
  I do'nt think MSV had any musical defects in his compositions but there has been distinct musical deficiencies.I find harmony patterns almost non-existent.He solely concetrated on melody and did bring out some outstanding melodies but on the flip side the melodies could have been enriched by a cohesive harmonic backbone.One can hear this difference after listening to IR songs.
  I would say he never evinced interest in western classical concepts and just stuck to his composing patterns and ofcourse his BGM is a lot to be desired.
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Wed Sep 30 16:39:58 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Kaushik,
  
  Do you have a hotline to my thinking ?? I was about to open this thread any time and you did it :-).
  
  I too thought it was time to talk about MSV's mediocre music as well. (I mean just for the sake of information and impartiality in the forum. Just like so many of IR fans like me who pointed out Dabba's in IR stuff I expect MSV fans to contribute to this thread.)
  
  I saw this movie sirai - it had amazing songs. But BGM score was not good. I felt the difference IR brings to BGM in this movie.
  
  I would also like to reiterate I have nothing against MSV's music and in fact I have started the collection of MSV hits in huge numbers.
  
  Mukund
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ proxy1.dpn.deere.com) on: Wed Sep 30 16:51:47 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  Msv's limitation!, whew great topic.
  First of all - There is a misnorm that he does not have harmonies arrangment etc. There was big limition of 1 and 2 track recording during MSV days. Most of the sounds were never heard or balanced properly.
  Defects: MSV's rerecording I have soft corner.
  He does good stuff, Guys of 75' generation have not heard much of his work. Try to watch movies like Ulagam sutrum valiban, Idhaya kani and many more. They had original scores.
  simple I can demostrate a grandisio (something big). In the movie Ulagam sutrum valiban - "ulagam" song shows expo70, the songs starts with grand string and brass run makes me feel I am in Expo70.Same situation in Japanil Kalaraman - appa amma song!...
  Ulagam is more grand song than the above.
  
  MSV has few limiations, he was not able to choice proper drum sounds as more and more western percussion came up.
  I will post more after I go home.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.246) on: Wed Sep 30 17:48:46 EDT 1998
  
  the only complaints that i have against MSV:
  
  1. not much importance to interlude music. if u hear IR's 'paruvame' the interlude would sound like a mini-symphony. MSV's interludes were too simple and he repeated interludes.
  in those days there were 3 or 4 stanzas in a song with the interlude being very short.
  
  2. the oft mentioned BGM.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-98.il.us.ibm.net) on: Wed Sep 30 18:27:15 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  Repeating BGMS history :
  In those mostly tamil songs came in a EP record. There was a limitation of around 5mins per song.
  There would be 2 songs on the Record. So Musicians were forced to cut thier bgm. There are many songs of MSV with many bgms. Ninaithale inikum - engeyom has 3 diff bgms. There were repeats only until 65, as mosty of the songs were more than 3 or 4 stanzas. So it MSV did not have time to do BGMs for all the n number of stanza written by Kannadasan. But every song has a minium of 2 bgms scores.
  During 80's all the songs had only 2 stanza format.
  We have see the factors which forced MSV to do like this.
  
  Yes! he had some limitations - like getting carried away in re-recs. Sometimes he thorws more sounds without any control
  
  
  
• From: The Fan (@ portal.ameritech.com) on: Wed Sep 30 18:31:08 EDT 1998
  
  I don't think MSV had major shortcomings. Compared to any music composer MsV has given the best melodies ever. Melodies so perfect (Muthukkalo Kangal, Kanpponna Pokkile, Adi Yennadi Rakkamma, Neeyum Nanuma, and a hundred others) that you don't need orchestra or symphonies to enhance them. BTW, his interludes are easily some of the finest instrumental and chorus works in film.
  music. Only thing MSV did not explore the rhythms as Ilayaraj did or give importance to rerecording. Again, the technology was limited at that time.
  
  BTW, Mr. Kaushik should switch the radio on for more MSV songs!
  
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova20.cs.wisc.edu) on: Wed Sep 30 19:41:31 EDT 1998
  
  All this is purely IMO
  
  While I accept that MSV has done some great numbers like Paasa Malar, I always ask myself this: given that he had the extraordinary musical talent as you people claim, why did he stop with films? If poor recording facilities was a drawback in his period, why doesn't he reproduce those great interludes that you people claim he has given now?
  
  The Fan: If you can provide me a radio that plays Tamil music in Madison, USA, I'll definitely listen to MSV's compositions.
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova20.cs.wisc.edu) on: Wed Sep 30 19:43:03 EDT 1998
  
  One must also admit this: MSV has explored far less WC than IR.
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova6.cs.wisc.edu) on: Wed Sep 30 19:56:37 EDT 1998
  
  I am also interested in knowing this: What has MSV done that his contemporaries in HFM, say SDB, Shankar Jaikishen, Salil Choudhry, Naushad haven't done?
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ tnt01-abe-120.fast.net) on: Wed Sep 30 20:51:29 EDT 1998
  
  I want to pitch in on shanker - jaikishen, who happens to be my favorite HFM director.They had some really class rythym patterns with harmony in the early 60's (eg) "Yeh raat beegi beegi" from chori chori.
  This has nothing to do with recording.It was a conceptual introduction in ths song.
  MSV had serious limitation with harmony visulization and this was exposed when IR arrived on the scene.As I said earlier "Atho antha paravai pola " had some great scope for improvization which was squandered by MSV by repeating the same interlude thrice.The song had great tempo and unbelivable melody.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-23.il.us.ibm.net) on: Wed Sep 30 21:08:02 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Kaushik,
  Those days were days were the MDS always had the back seat. The Order of command - Producer, directors, Actors and then MDS.
  In simple word - MSV is a sincere musician, he is non-dominative person. does not copy - tries to do his best and loyal to his work.
  
  "If poor recording facilities was a drawback in his period, why doesn't he reproduce those great interludes that you people claim he has given now? "
  
  He need not prove once again to you guys. He has already done more to TFM. He is an insitution of film music, has worked with toughest people to deal like Avm,Devar, MGR, KB Every director of past have worked him and has a good raport with him till date.
  Why the hell he should re-do those things (just to prove you!) - I feel he has retired from music - he has done something great in the past - he is the person who wrote guidelines to Light Music that why people still call him "MEL ISAI Manner" - King of Light music -
  Dear Kaushik - Try hearing his work more you will understand what we are saying here.
  Few Perls from the ocean:
  1. Mandana Maligai
  2. Neyum Nanuma
  3. Azagiya tamil magal - charukesi ragam! boss
  adhu.
  4. 7 swaran
  5. Nee yenenna yenenna sonalum kavithai - it set to Bageshree, same Bageshree he had used it differently in "Nilave ennidam nerungathe" in Ramu.
  There is female humming - longest humming bar in a tamil song in chandordhayam by P.Suseela.
  Do you know ulagum sutrum valiban songs were recorded in a weeks time. Many many many more songs. It is a very huge list.
  
  Kaushik , Visit my webpage for MSV songs.
  
  "I am also interested in knowing this: What has MSV done that his contemporaries in HFM, say SDB, Shankar Jaikishen, Salil Choudhry, Naushad haven't done?"
  
  I am sure he has done much more to TFM.
  We areconcerned about TFM, I feel this question is unwarrented here.
  
  
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova9.cs.wisc.edu) on: Wed Sep 30 21:49:05 EDT 1998
  
  Dear Srikanth: what I meant by replaying interludes is those parts which you said were cut off because of the record format.
  
  Also, while the topic is definitely TFM, I feel TFM has some of the best MDs in India and so want to know their contribution in the fuller perspective.
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova9.cs.wisc.edu) on: Wed Sep 30 21:52:11 EDT 1998
  
  Also, Srikanth: I wonder when you say MSV hasn't copied, because several people have pointed out songs of his that strongly resemble(if not direct lifts) some Hindi numbers. I don't remember the exact charges, though. You will have to read up the appropriate threads.
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Thu Oct 1 00:11:53 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  
  I for one, do not have doubts as to the musical abilities of MSV - his pure simple melodies were his assets and they speak for themselves. Even now I hear Kathalikka Neramillai a hundred times just for the melody, pace, beats etc.
  
  But my idea was we should all concentrate on what his shortcomings were. IMO, the orchestration and harmony and interludes and BGM were much better in IR's music. If people are open minded that would be accepted.
  
  I have heard songs from MSV which sound similar to some Hindi songs. Don't ask me to say which one it is. I did not list it down. Maybe MSV fans should help me out here. If say whatever sounds almost the same is copy (as we say for IR) then MSV copied. (More I think about it only one thing is clear to me - Given their sincerity we have to give them the benefit of doubt that it is an unconscious happpening. Getting influenced does happen!!)
  
  This thread fails its purpose if someone is completely biased like "The Fan".
  
  We can certainly mention his best music to provide a proper reference, but what are his shortcomings ???. What were his terrible horrible DABBA songs ?
  
  Mukund
  
  
• From: shankar (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Thu Oct 1 01:16:12 EDT 1998
  
  IMO,The usage of LRE is one of the shortcomings of MSV .
  
  

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