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TFM MD'S musical approach and recording technqs

Topic started by UV (@ 138.88.107.150) on Sun Feb 3 14:58:08 EST 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Here we will discuss constructively about the various trends in compsoing,recording techniqs,methods that existed,adopted,tried and being introduced by all our MDS with major focus IR nd ARR followed by others.
Hopefully those who read the postings will get an idea about Music making and thats its an art of the highest creativity of human mind.
And not mere digital gadgetry or synth music

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: vgs (@ 157.161.133.194) on: Fri Feb 8 12:45:08 EST 2002
  
  I have always had these doubts for a long time and I think that this is the right place to clear it. I'll ask my questions with an example. Please listen to the song "Poove Sempoove" from Solla Thudikkuthu Manasu on a headphone. (It is my most favourite headphone song). From the time point 1:09 to 1:27, I can identify 3 different channels.
  
  1. I hear a rhythmic salangai music, and this exactly in my left ear only. Let's call this the left channel.
  
  2. I hear a veenai, and this is in my right ear only. Let's call this the right channel.
  
  3. I hear a prominent tabla beat + some other instruments, somewhere in the middle of my head. Let's call this the middle channel.
  
  I am now taking a guess. I think the salangai signal is introduced on the left track only and the veenai signal on the right track only and the 'tabla + others' part on both the tracks. Is this assumption right ? Is this what you guys call "track-mixing" ? Or is there more to it than what I have assumed ?
  
  In my headphone if I am able to hear a song only in the "middle channel", Can I assume that the song does not have track-mixing ? Or do MDs record specific songs with track-mixing such that we can hear it only in the "middle channel" ?
  
  So when you say 24 track mixing, you mean 24 signals have been introduced one over the other at the same place (for whatever period) in the central track, or does it mean 24 signals being introduced at 24 potentially different places through out the sound track ?
  
  What I have asked might be very basic but please bear with me as I am a layman to this field. Can some one here please explain these things to me ?
  
  
• From: musicfan (@ 172.190.255.57) on: Fri Feb 8 13:33:30 EST 2002
  
  Hi Srikant,
  
  I read your postings and found them very informative and simple to understand. Thanks.
  
  I have a doubt. you had explained about the loops and samplers mainly in relation to rhythm of songs. is it possible to mix different melodies to produce or synthezise a new melody? for example, is it possible to take a bit of beethoven's, a bit of mozart's and a bit of carnatic raga which can be fed into a sampler(or whatever else) which will mix them in different permutations and combinations, and then come up with say a dozen new tunes? will they then sound similar to the originals?
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Fri Feb 8 13:37:36 EST 2002
  
  Sam,
  I read in an interview where ARR said, he decides on a rhythm first and then goes on to compose the tune. So I think, he might start out with a simple loop and later replace it with a 'different sound'/'texture'. He even lets the instrumentalists improvise within a 'given constraint' ( a particular scale ?).
  With IR, I think, people just play what he gives them on paper. Also, Uttam Singh used to conduct for IR for a long time. If you look at Uttam Singh's own work for a few hindi movies, it is very IRish except for the use of 'modern rhythm/beats'.
  
  I was reading IRs experience with the Budapest Symphony Orchestra. The conductor and his wife, just look at the notes and suggest corrections/changes. So if somebody can read and tell the sound, it should only be a next step to write down the notes for what you think will sound good. I am sure you or Srikanth or Shyam have better insights.
  
  I think this sort of a skill is very important, if you want to do 'big' / 'serious' compositions. With out a backing rhythm, it might be difficult to improvise and so you should be able to keep the basic pattern/melody in mind and keep on elaborating it. Ofcourse, I am just theorising here.
  
  
• From: Vishvesh Obla (@ 66.24.214.34) on: Fri Feb 8 14:35:44 EST 2002
  
  Kiru,
  
  An interesting discussion. Just felt like chirping in when I saw your last posting. I remember when I learned to read notations my master used to ask me to imagine a tune and write it down. He used to correct them even without playing them. They would sound much better after his corrections. I used to ask him how he could do it and I remember him saying that there is some kind of syntax structure. I didn't give much importance at that time, for sheet music was getting into my nerves. Anyway, if there is anything like a syntax in composing music, it would be nice if someone could explain it. Better late in knowing such things than never, aint it?
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 132.235.18.15) on: Fri Feb 8 16:00:53 EST 2002
  
  Kiru, my views on writing music,
  One of the big big big contributions by the western world is the system to write down music. And its a higly skilled art to write down or read music. I still cant read music fluently, either I miss the keys on the piano, or I have to stop reading the music, even for simple music, thats why I still go by the ear. But then I didnt take formal training, may be that helps.
  Learning by ear improves one's perception, and thats where our carnatic musicians are too good. But if we see the notation (sight reading) for a melody we can make out things in a piece of music that are not so easy to recognize at the first time by ear, atleast for me. Sight always aids in hearing. In muisc competitions we see the judges going thru the staff along when the pianinst is playing the piece. That way they can figure out if the pianist is playing the way he is supposed to. I have a book with me, and they had a chapter only on sight reading.
  Some of the guys I know in my univ see thru the notation first before they start playing, thats for givin them an idea of what the music is like, the phrasing, cadences those kind of things. Its true most of the experienced and gifted musicians can tell what the music sounds like by seein the staff. And we know IR is really good at this.
  
  
• From: Saketh@Atlanta (@ 130.207.33.163) on: Fri Feb 8 16:12:30 EST 2002
  
  Thanks a ton, guys... keep the discussion going...
  
  
• From: Shyam (@ 12.22.60.1) on: Fri Feb 8 16:16:44 EST 2002
  
  Generally I feel that IR's technique (the way the patterns are weaved) are more Bach like. I know Srikanth feels that he is like Beethoven. I have studied music, and some early Baroque techniques are having your score seperated by strings, bass sections and then blend them together into one piece. A classic book (again sorry for the digression) would be "Godel, Escher and Bach". I am sure most of you have had an opportunity. The Bach's method of recurssion is seen quite frequently in IR (infact very visible in How To Name It and other albums). That is why I call IR a perfectionist and ARR (and the gang of MDs from early 90s) are improvisers. They improve upon an existing - try trial and error, mix and match patterns.
  
  I am stating these observations primarily because this thread is about Recording and composing technicques of TFM MDs.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.225.222) on: Fri Feb 8 20:34:07 EST 2002
  
  Shyam,
  You misunderstood me, since you told ir writes score like bach, it is beethoven who wrote scores without an instrument, this what I meant. I agree IRs structure similar to Bach in many ways.
  What is this theory on improvisor and a composer?
  What does a jazz musicians ranks in this explanation, or
  where does a carnatic musician rank in this ?
  
  Please describe more.
  for me Arr is also a composer with different work pattern while IR works differently. Have you worked with any rock band here, i have, It is similar to what arr does. and it no way degradeding, "Improve upon an existing" is totally unparlimentry. I call it a left hand apperication. We are tangenting some where else by taking IR and Arr in the same plate.,
  I seriously wanted to explain some musical concepts i know, which i did without bring in IR,
  it is a senative topic. So please take both of them in same plate, you words hurts many sentiments.
  
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 132.235.228.184) on: Fri Feb 8 22:11:58 EST 2002
  
  Shyam, me second Srikanth, I too am into a band like thing, and I cud see that both approaches finally give good results. But neways, lets get back to the discussion with no ......
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.225.222) on: Fri Feb 8 23:25:08 EST 2002
  
  So please take both of them in same plate,
  
  read it as : Please do not take.
  
  
  please continue discussing.
  
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 64.166.86.128) on: Sat Feb 9 01:39:44 EST 2002
  
  I agree rock bands work like the way ARR does. Actually, in the beginning of the thread I did mention ARR has a 'band' like approach to making songs. Actually, this is the way songs are mostly made. TFM composers like IR are different. They are like WCM composers.
  Re: Jazz and Carnatic: There are Jazz and Carnatic composers too. If you compose a keerthanai in a rAgam you are a composer, but if you are only performing the 'standard' you are only improvising..adding sangathis, niravals etc. Am I right in my understanding ? (I have observed that Hariprasad Chaurasia makes a point about him being a composer every now and then - meaning he is different from other classical performers). Well..it is obvious you have to have some experience being a performer before becoming a composer.
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 132.235.18.15) on: Sat Feb 9 04:15:33 EST 2002
  
  My two cents again,
  Srikanth, since u have experience and contacts in the music industry u cud throw some light on this again. This has been on my mind for some time.
  
  I think in the eighties, for a recording, the MD must have had all the musicians, singers at his hand, all at a time. But now its like the singer is from North India, the flautist is from AP, guitarist from Chennai, rhythm programmer from bombay and so on. And again the singers/musicians have to do their part for other MDs too. (Things like the drummer may have to be with some other MD at a given time when this MD is recording the singer). So this may constraint the MD from recording all of them at one time. He has to do their each individual part when that guy is present with him, and then get all of their musical passages together. Now this is my thinking how it might be in the industry now, I don have first hand experience. But I feel that this scenario is quite plausible. If this is the scenario indeed present wud it justify a MD's approach towards recording? (I am talkin only abt recording, not composing, may be this might affect composing too?)
  
  Me glad that I am knowing some things thru this thread. (And if this scenario is true, probably Industrial Engineering students like me cud develop a scheduling solution for their thesis :-)).
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Sat Feb 9 20:34:44 EST 2002
  
  Sam,
  I think ARR was able to usher in a new style, mainly because of the nature of his then current vocation - making jingles. For this, you cannot afford to hire a ful-fledged orchestra so he was relying on electronic gadgetry a lot. Fortunately for him, the technology evolved really well so that the sounds were good enough to be recorded for films. Actually, the difference that existed in the synth sounds worked in his favor, for people have been listening to real instruments for a long time. Moreover, ARR followed/follows the POP music of the west, I am sure he was yearning to recreate the sounds in indian music. He also has a 'technology streak' in him which makes him enamored of gadgets. From his interviews, I could tell, everytime he gets a new gadget he is really enthusiastic about it. He also feels good being 'high tech' (something like us owning wireless PDA, browser-enabled cellphones etc).
  I am sure his style/strategy has nothing to do with scheduling artistes. For the amount of money being spent on his albums, it is no problem getting the artistes and equipment together at the right place.
  
  

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