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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• From: Sabesan (@ pppa16-resalesanfranciscometro1-1r7194.saturn.bbn.com) on: Tue Jan 18 01:11:28 EST 2000
  
  who said 5% is listenable.... even that is 150% junk nanbareey.... and what ARR's songs are just 99.9% listenable... oh come on give me a break... i thought it was 1000.001% listenable... how dare u say like that... i think u r an anti-ARR or probably the leader of it....
  
  ellam neram.... IRkku idhuvum vennum enamum venummm....
  
  
• From: Singaram (@ 180.chicago-16-17rs.il.dial-access.att.net) on: Tue Jan 18 01:22:33 EST 2000
  
  Dei Yarra avan,
  
  Summa edho topic arambikkanumennu aarambikka vendiyadhu, appuram sandai poda vendiyadhu. Innum evvalavu naal thaan ippadi pannuvanungalo.
  
  
  
• From: M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Jan 18 01:55:26 EST 2000
  
  Mr. Sabesan, I think u got pissed off. Can you list 50 IR films in which all the songs were great. I do agree that IR has given great songs. I am indeed a great fan of his. But for every one good song, he has given 10 junks. Take kalaignan for example, endan nenjil was a beautiful song but other songs in that movie were nothing but pure junk. that was what I was trying to point out. So there is no substance in claiming that IR has tuned songs for 785 films. It is better to do few films and compose good tunes for all of them. I can think only of very few IR movies in which all the songs were good - sindhu bhairavi or thalapathi for eg..
  
  Anand
  
  
• From: Sabesan (@ dialup-166.90.33.172.sanfrancisco1.level3.net) on: Tue Jan 18 02:21:59 EST 2000
  
  ok going by ur example itself.... 'Kokarakoo Kozhii' by Kamal was really good... 'dhilparu janee' i think fit the situation exactly... so what's the next movie...
  
  buddy yep i did get pissed off.... when u guys can say 99.99% junk, what else do u expect anyone to??? maybe i should try to learn to IGNORE guys like u.... well let me try that....
  
  
• From: summa oru kELvi by Velaiyaththavan (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Tue Jan 18 02:34:13 EST 2000
  
  can you list 50 of ARR ? (avLo irukkaa moththama ? ) :-)
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Tue Jan 18 02:41:35 EST 2000
  
  Trying to list films of IR in which almost all songs are good:
  
  (1) annakkiLi
  (2) gaayathri
  (3) kavikkuyil
  (4) 16 vayadhinile
  (5) achchaani
  (6) iLamai oonjalaadugirathu
  (7) kaatrinile varum geetham
  (8) kizakke pOgum rail
  (9) Priya
  (10)sigappu rojaakkaL
  (11)anbe sangeetha
  (12)dharmayudhdham
  (13)kalyaaNaraman
  (14)niram maaraatha pookkaL
  (15) poNNu oorukku puthusu
  (16) poonthaLir
  (17) puthiya vaarppugaL
  (18) uthiri pookkaL
  (19) guru (tamil)
  (20) ILamaikkOlam
  (21) Johnny..
  
  meethi naaLaikku..
  
  
• From: neruppu (@ abdcde83.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Jan 18 03:13:13 EST 2000
  
  MS, please don't strain. you are giving an useless topic undeserved importance! ignore!
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ netcache31.mot.com) on: Tue Jan 18 03:21:42 EST 2000
  
  MS,
  I second neruppu......
  
  anand,
  
  We can have a separate discussion on Raja and arr thro' mail if u r really interested....
  
  
  
• From: IR Rasigan ARR Rasigan 2 (@ bkj-cache82.jaring.my) on: Tue Jan 18 03:57:00 EST 2000
  
  5500 songs and u r telling us only 5% r good and listenable songs..sorry dear I can't accept this. Tell 85% and may be we'll bear it. Of course 99.9% of ARR's songs are listenable but for how long..one after one of ARR's work were being released and within few months it's fused into the air. Take "Minsara Kanna" of Padaiyappa for example..who is listening to that songs anymore when they are busy listening to "Saukiyamma Kanney " from Sangamam. But Mr. M.Anand tell me if one would stop the radio when the song "Sanggetha Megam Theen Sinthum Neeram" is on air???!!!
  
  
• From: M.Anand (@ ihproxy2.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Jan 18 04:07:09 EST 2000
  
  hi all, I think my message was misinterpreted by all of you. The topic of my discussion was not whether 5% of IRs songs are good or 99%. It was about the quality of songs. When people claim that there is nobody other that IR who can give a fusion of classical and western music, I feel that he has just done a traversal of swaras and nothing more. ARR has made very less attempts but he was more successful. IR has tuned certain songs keeping in mind that people are dumb. The best example I would adduce as evidence is the song "nivedha" starring rehman and gouthami. I don't remember the name of the film. It was widely publicized as one of IRs best as there was only one word in the lyrics of that song. It was tuned to bilahari. But how many of them know that IR has made an absolute copy of all the swara sequence in that song (afterall the song had only swaras)from the geetham "Raara venu gopala" Especially the part - Ga Ri Sa Ri Ri Ri, Ri Sa Ni Da Da Da ..... nivedha... thats how the song goes. Our people do not blame IR for copying because they are not conversant with the keerthanais and varnams that exist. When ARR brings in bits or pieces from phil collins or mozart we instantly recognize and make hue and cry about it. Ultimately what I am trying to say is "ellaarum ore kuttaiyila oorina mattaigal thaan" so there is not question of whether IR is great or ARR is great. If ARR brings in pieces from mozart of Beethoven, IR brings in from Thiagarajar and Muthuswamy Dikshithar.
  
  Ninnu kori yuna nura is a beautiful varnam set in raagam mohanam. Who the hell is IR to tune a song Ninnu kori varnam, ennai thedi varanum. Cheap guy he is. He has to give some respect and credit to our music. Carnatic music is our music, the music that belongs to Tamizhargal. He relies heavily on the swara flow and things like that on our music to compose his junks and then humiliates them. IR and vairamuthu and balachandar of course ( a boot licker of IR at that time) thought they were doing some real good by translating the song "Nee Daya Raadha" by swami thiagarajar in tamil as "Un Daya villaya" in the movie sindhu bhairavi. Who the hell is he to do that. They did that under the pretext that our people could not enjoy the meaning of the lyrics. Well Mr.IR, thiagaraja swami's songs had very limited lyrics, a few words, but the way in which the song is tuned make the meaning of the song explicit. Thats why no attempts have been made so far in translating any of his songs in Tamil. IR has no right in tampering with any of Thiagarajars songs. When Balu Mahendra extracted pieces of music from IRs "How to Name it", and used it as BGM in veedu, IR got pissed off. When IR doesn't like others using his music, then how can he play around with the music of Sri Thiagarajar.
  IR or ARR might be forgotten in another few decades but Thiagaraja swami's songs will always remain. Such is his impact. IR is nowhere before those Maestros. Ilayraaja was not formally awarded the title of Maestro, it was given by his boot lickers in the Industry. He hasn't done any thing great to deserve that title.
  Fortunately ARR, so far hasn't done any thing of that sort. More ethical of him.
  I expect more comments from you guys on this regard
  
  
• From: Kumar :) (@ palrel3.hp.com) on: Tue Jan 18 04:54:21 EST 2000
  
  Anand,
  
  The 'Nivedha' song was not composed by IR.. I think its 'Nee Pathi Naan Paathi' (Vasanth's movie) and the MD is Maragathamani!
  
  And is'nt the MD for Balu's movie 'Veedu', IR ??? How can he get pissed off with a BGM that he himself scored !!!
  
  And do people get formal 'Maestro' titles ??? I thought it just a title accredited to people with talent from the masses and not a formal certification!!
  
  What IR did in Sindhu Bhairavi is commendable and not something to be taken as blemish of thyagaraja! If tuning classic songs for movie is a sin, then it applies for 'gramiya' songs too.
  
  -Kumar :)
  
  
• From: kannan (@ proxy.cowan.edu.au) on: Tue Jan 18 05:30:07 EST 2000
  
  Dear Anand,
  I find a lot of contradictions in your arguments and I think your soul aim is to vilify the brilliant work of IR.
  
  In your opening note you said that you are a great fan of IR which is defenitely not true.
  Second the music director who tuned Nevadtha is not IR (DO YOUR HOME WORK PROPERLY).
  
  IR was a man who catered to the masses, simplifying music to their ears and not complicating it with so called ragas and swaras which most of you are confused about.
  
  After a hard day's work, an average tamil likes to relax hearing simple melodies. IR has successfully done that for nearly 22 years. Most of IR's songs during the period 1977 to 1987 were of high quality and commercially successful. If you don't like it then keep it to yourself.
  
  I know many people who are still hearing those golden melodies.
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Shibu (@ pppa15-resalespringfldpa1-2r7153.saturn.bbn.com) on: Tue Jan 18 05:41:31 EST 2000
  
  Oh my God!!! You mean the National Award for Sindu Bairavi was a Mistake ????!!!!!
  Some people have no work. Simply come to the forum and shout!!!!
  
  

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