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Recycled tunes in TFM

Topic started by eden (@ 202.54.71.139) on Tue Feb 16 23:50:22 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Friends,
This is just to bring out a list of recycled pallavis in songs. Let me start with one IR no. (Please keep in mind I'm an admirer of Raja). He did a great tune `Pookkal Sindhungal' in one listless movie. May be to popularise the tune, he used it again in Thanikkattu Raja - Naan than toppu, Meethiyellam Dooppu'. ( The funniest part of it is this: ARR recylced this same IR tune twice- in Indian (Maya Machheendra) and in Kaadal Desam (Mustafa Mustafa)

More such numbers please!

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Responses:

• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 17 00:55:34 EST 1999
  
  Eden :
  I cant remember any instance. But what is the IR tune that ARR recycled as Maya Machendra and Musthafa Musthafa?
  
  
• From: SM (@ pmnat01-p19.sgum.mci.com) on: Wed Feb 17 01:31:32 EST 1999
  
  Eden,
  
  I don't find any similarites between "Maya Machindra" song, or, "Musthafa Musthafa" song with "naan thaan topu meedhi ellam doopu". Can you clarify more regarding this?
  
  I feel that IR recycled some parts (the beats seem so similar?) of "oru maina maina" song ("UzhaippaaLi") in "vennilavu kodhippadhenna" song ("Chinna MaappiLLai"). Like the beat after "vennilavu kodhippadhenna" and "kannimanam thudippadhenna" resembles the beat of "oru maina maina". Vevaram therinjavanga, indha eLiyonukku puriya vainga. And no brick bats please. I like IR like most of you and I too am a great fan of the incomparable maestro. I am just asking a doubt. Some people may say "other MDs do lot of recycling while IR would have done one or two". Yes. True. But, when others recycle it is very ordinary. Only when a genius like recycles it becomes a news and I don't call this one as a total recycle and all. But, just wanted to know if I am right or wrong.
  
  
• From: UV (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Wed Feb 17 03:40:43 EST 1999
  
  SM,
  IR fansa pAthu En sir ippadi bayappadareenga?
  
  here I would like to digress a bit. if just a Srinath or a Raj were so obsessed with IR's tunes and take offense when somebody despises IR ,then you can call it fanaticism (or we have a bias towards his music ,for some reason) but, here in this DF or for that matter any of the IR fans I know are as wild as we are when it comes to tackling the persons who despise IR.
  
  People should note the fact that ,IR's songs are MORE than just songs to them. It's a part of their life.I attain peace from his music (only his) and so do most of the HCIRFs.
  Not many of the songs from other MDs have that "haunting effect" as IR's. (if u notoce the haunting songs thread , most of them would be IR's),though i really don't know what makes them so haunting.
  
  U shouldn't mistake those postings for insane posting by an IR fanatic.
  
  Again, sorry guys for the digression.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Wed Feb 17 04:36:16 EST 1999
  
  Dear UV: You aren't karthik, I suppose. I wouldnt like my affection for Raja's tunes/interludes/BGM/what-not to be described as obsession. But you are right about the songs being more than just songs.
  I dont think SM is frightened about any IR-fanatic either. I think he is just making it clear that "his heart is in the right place": He is just ensuring that we dont mistake him for a "Just-for-the-heck-of-it-IR-basher", which he most certainly is not. SM, I concur with you on "Vennilavu .." and "Oru maina, maina" - the simple fact is I never cared for either of the two much enough to bother about the similarity to point it out!
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.150) on: Wed Feb 17 07:36:15 EST 1999
  
  Raj & SM:
  I'm not refering `ditto' copy here. The MDs like IR & ARR possess much better knowledge than you and me and hence they change a note either in pitch or timing to bring a minor variation. That is what is done to Pookkal Sindhungal to derive Maya Machcheendra. With the beats, orchestration completely new, it is difficult for a normal listener to detect the similarity in songs. (I mean the tune of the Pallavi).
  
  There are 2 recyclings by ARR of his own song `Ottakatha Kattikko' : 1. Neeyum nanum onnana (Bombay) 2. Kottayerippoyachu (Indian). In each of these cases, a note or so is changed which is not noticable by an average listener. That is where their success lies.
  
  Another IR recycling: `Naan thanda Ippa Devadass' in Thanikkattu raja was recycled as `Kanna thorakkanum Saami' in Mundanai Mudichu which has become a much bigger hit than the first one.
  
  I hope IR & ARR themselves will agree with me that they came up with such `minor variations' which in my language is `recycling'.
  
  
• From: SM (@ nat01smurugap.sgum.mci.com) on: Wed Feb 17 13:20:42 EST 1999
  
  Raj,
  
  Thanks for the clarification. Naan solla vandhadha appadiyae neenga sollitteenga.
  
  UV,
  
  Naan IR fansa paathu yenga bayappadanum. In fact, I love IR's songs like all of you. Whenever some person despises IR, or for that matter ARR, I will also be there to counter it. I just wanted to get clarified about those two songs. Anyway, I agree with you when you say IR's songs are not just songs and they are something more than that.
  
  
• From: Sudhakar G (@ aegis.bst.bellsouth.com) on: Thu Feb 18 16:50:57 EST 1999
  
  The songs "Kuyilu kuppam, kuyilu kuppam" (En Uyir Thozhan) and "ThuLiyile Aadavandha" (Chinna Thambi) have the same tunes. Seems IR said in an interview that he was surprised when "Kuyilu kuppam" song was not a big success and was hell bent on popularising the tune in his next effort! He did succeed indeed!
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Fri Feb 19 00:27:30 EST 1999
  
  Arumbaraummba charam thodutha from Chinnathayee sounds so similar to "Sondhamillai" from Annakkili. IS that the kind of thing you are talking about,Eden?
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.158) on: Fri Feb 19 07:30:34 EST 1999
  
  Raj
  I'm sorry, I haven't heard any song from Chinnaththayee. Let me try to locate that cassette from some friend before I comment.
  Thanks
  
  
• From: Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.26.69) on: Sun Feb 21 04:51:33 EST 1999
  
  "Paadaatha paadali nenjam paadum naaL idhu" the first two lines are perfect recycle of "Aanandha ragam" .
  
  
• From: Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.26.69) on: Sun Feb 21 04:53:14 EST 1999
  
  Hey sudhakar, wonderful observation. How is it that we dfers did not ever notice it ?
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.28.194) on: Sun Feb 21 14:23:06 EST 1999
  
  songs - major influences
  
  otha roobavukku oru rooba - aatame therotama
  
  otha roobayum thaaren - ennadi muniyamma
  
  suttum sudar vizhi paarvaiyile - maanguyile poonguyile
  
  enna desamo - nai koi umang hai(hindi song from 'kati pathang')
  
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.28.194) on: Sun Feb 21 14:33:48 EST 1999
  
  one more....
  
  
  the starting flute piece in 'oru kungumach changamalam' is 100% similiar to the first line of 'putham puthu kaalai'. another case of raja being obsessed with his own tune?
  
  
• From: Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Sun Feb 21 15:29:20 EST 1999
  
  Vijay,
  
  I do not find a great similarity between "suttum sudar" and "maanguyiley". All others are perfectly acceptable. I think the basic Keeravani + sandham set-up in both the songs have compelled you to comment as above.
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova2.cs.wisc.edu) on: Sun Feb 21 15:30:13 EST 1999
  
  Vijay: I don't think these resemblences are intentional, except in a few cases. You will see repetitiveness in any composer's work. For example, even Mozart was not exempt from this: his eincleinarcht(I'm not sure of the spelling) music reminds me of Marriage of Figaro. Its just musical impressions which keep recurring.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.28.194) on: Sun Feb 21 15:43:23 EST 1999
  
  kaushik, even i don't think these resemblances are intentional. but IR might have been very much affected by the originals, that it might have sub-consciously played a factor when he had composed the new songs. but the 'ennadi muniyaama' song sounds too similiar to call it a co-incidence.
  
  talking of keeravaani, the 'suutum sudar' song has resemblance to 'nejukukkle inaarunnu' from ponnumani.the line
  'kanavil unnai naan paaduven geethanjaliyaai...' from the suttu sudarvizhi song
  
  is similiar to
  
  'uyire pirindhaalum un uruvam piriyaadhe' from
  the ponnumani song.
  
  yes, the raagam and sandham are similiar to suggest a strong influence.
  
  iam not saying the above songs are copies, but yes i do believe that there are strong influences.
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Mon Feb 22 03:48:42 EST 1999
  
  Vijay,
  GA in one of his programs in SUN TV that otha ruvA thArEn and ennadi muniyamma are similar, but both of them are based on a particular folk song.
  
  There are many folk songs which have inspired Raja. For instance, in the same program he quoted that his mom while working in the fields used to sing one song which goes like ,"Anavarudhu ...." which was beautifully adopted by raja for "Ayiram thAmarai mottukkaLE".
  
  
• From: Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Tue Feb 23 11:08:16 EST 1999
  
  abt thirakaatha kaattukulla:
  
  The dejavu of ARR:
  
  First two lines:
  
  "thirakkatha kaattukkulla pirakkatha pillaigal pola"
  
  the swara pattern is :
  
  "RRR SSS RR(G/R) SSS"
  
  compare with
  "kalthondri man thondri kadal thondum munnaley"
  
  which reads:
  
  "SSS RRR SSS RRR SSS RRR SS"
  
  Just a swap of the set of swaras.
  
  Coming to the next two lines:
  
  "Pattampochi pattampochi vattam podum pattampoochi odi vandhu muththam vaangichu"
  
  this is an exact replication of "Ettum maadi veedu katta .." in aadip paaru mangaaththa
  
  IMO, the anupallavi and charanam are well formulated. I prefer UK not singing like this anymore.
  
  
• From: Sudhakar G (@ aegis.bst.bellsouth.com) on: Tue Feb 23 11:33:51 EST 1999
  
  In the song, "Azhagu Nilavu Sirikka Marandhadhe" (My dear Marthandan), the line
  
  "En KaNmani panithuLi kaNmeedhila"
  
  resembles the line
  
  "Kanne unai naan Vaazhavaippen"
  
  Also recently, I heard a Hindi film song from Upkaar (or Pukar.. forgot which one it was). It had EXACTLY the same tune as "Kanavu kaaNum kaatchi yaavum" (KJY). My friend said that the Hindi movie we were talking about came out in 1967. So, obviously the Tamil version is a recycled one...
  
  of the song "Endhan pon VaNName" (Naan vaazhavaippen)
  
  
• From: Sudhakar G (@ aegis.bst.bellsouth.com) on: Tue Feb 23 11:37:12 EST 1999
  
  Sorry, about the earlier post. It got jumbled up somehow..
  
  In the song, "Azhagu Nilavu Sirikka Marandhadhe" (My dear Marthandan), the line
  
  "En KaNmani panithuLi kaNmeedhila"
  
  resembles the line
  
  "Kanne unai naan Vaazhavaippen"
  
  of the song "Endhan pon VaNName" (Naan vaazhavaippen)
  
  Also recently, I heard a Hindi film song from Upkaar (or Pukar.. forgot which one it was). It had EXACTLY the same tune as "Kanavu kaaNum kaatchi yaavum" (KJY). My friend said that the Hindi movie we were talking about came out in 1967. So, obviously the Tamil version is a recycled one...
  
  
• From: krishna (@ athena.mse.ufl.edu) on: Tue Feb 23 12:43:31 EST 1999
  
  what about enakku unnai nenechaa majaa.. from amaithi padai and manasae thotta kaathal from kathal kavithai
  
  

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