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What determines whether a melody (tune) is good, great etc.

Topic started by eden (@ 210.214.4.67) on Tue Oct 30 07:35:01 EST 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

We are used to reading in DF that such and such song had a great melody (even I could've posted like that on several occasions). However, while one can say `I like that melody' very much (which can be subjective, related to taste / bias etc.), is there a technical method to "rate" the melody? I expect good participation by techies...

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Responses:

• From: eden (@ 210.214.4.67) on: Tue Oct 30 07:42:32 EST 2001
  
  A couple of months back The Hindu had a feature on Vidya Sagar where it quoted the song `malarE, mounamA' to have one of the `best' melodies in recent times. I've heard the song only a couple of times & liked it very much, though not for the tune but for the excellent renderings of the singers. Also I cannot imagine the song very effective without the accompaniment. Neither I find it great when I sing the tune myself. I thought earlier that a good melody has to be enjoyable even without orchestration & even if it's sung by me:-) But then experts /critics / The Hindu / DF'ers all praise `malarE' as a great melody and they can't be wrong. Obviously, there's something wrong with my understanding. I hope to get my misconception corrected & knowledge enriched in this thread w.r.t melody.
  
  Okay, according to my reasonings, neerOdum vaigaiyilE is a great melody. Am I correct or not?
  
  
• From: Raguvaran (@ 212.2.14.241) on: Tue Oct 30 07:54:47 EST 2001
  
  but for the excellent renderings of the singers,
  
  of course, it is by the ultimate Dr.SPB & SJ, though the tune is good, if it was not for SPB & SJ, it would not have been a super dooper hit.
  
  what about another awesome melody again by SPB &SJ, but under IR, the song is "Sundari kannal oru seidhi", what a song ha?
  
  thanks
  
  
• From: Isai Priyan (@ 157.95.211.50) on: Tue Oct 30 10:43:51 EST 2001
  
  But what about Muthalang kattai and ettan kattai?
  
  
• From: Raguvaran (@ 212.2.14.241) on: Tue Oct 30 11:45:07 EST 2001
  
  Isai Priyan (@ 157.95.211.50) ;
  
  Go & fuk your kattai
  
  fukin c**t,
  
  
• From: Isai Priyan (@ 157.95.211.50) on: Tue Oct 30 13:33:03 EST 2001
  
  u no get angri ok,tell us abot kattai in ur styl of englis!!!
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Tue Oct 30 13:38:34 EST 2001
  
  Poor Eden, 1 small attempt by her to discuss something sensible has to be spoiled by raghuvaran's incessant trumpeting of SPB.
  
  Raghuvaran because of YOU, I HATE SPB. I HATE him so much that I say he is the WORST singer in the world. 7 donkeys in madras can BRAY better than him, you are not 1 of them.
  
  SO if you are content please GET OUT.
  
  P.S: SPB is the WORST singer in the world ever!
  
  
  Can we please come back to this good topic...
  
  
• From: sats (@ 139.177.224.100) on: Tue Oct 30 14:41:16 EST 2001
  
  Bharath
  
  Iam 100% with you , raghuvaran is an anthrax to tfm page , Eden topic was really good and I was waiting for some nice postings but alas came MR @212
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Oct 30 15:04:53 EST 2001
  
  IMO, (also) For a melody to be considered great, it should sound good even without orchestration and other instruments in the background. This can be vocals or a single instrument. My 4 month old baby son listens to William Tell Overture, Fur Elise and other such melodies in his toy Mutzart :) with rapt attention. These tunes sound great even on a synth piano sound probably done with a 50cent worth chip made in Taiwan.
  
  
• From: raycas (@ 212.186.40.21) on: Tue Oct 30 15:06:05 EST 2001
  
  well, nice topic...
  eden, i must admit i agree with ur definition of good melody
  "I thought earlier that a good melody has to be enjoyable even without orchestration & even if it's sung by me"
  'anjali anjali' from duet is IMO a perfect example for good melody, it's kind of soothing...not really built up in a complex way, u feel how ur ears kind of start enjoying the song...
  i don't think that one can define good melody technically...u can't also define good music technically...but what i guess makes a meldody popular is the acceptance by the mass
  i'm sure there are a lot of really good songs out there which didn't become popular because nobody ever bothered to hear them properly, like if there are 2, 3 super songs in an album which everybody likes very soon, then they may 'forget' to hear the other songs more often. i don't know how popular for example the song 'anbendra mazhayile' from 'minsara kanavu' got, i'm not living in india, so i really don't know...but my guess is, that because of the extremely popular ones of that album 'poo pookum osai' and 'mana madhurai' this song only less people noticed. anyway, that was now about 'popularity', but i guess popularity has something to do with the acceptance of a song by the mass. if it becomes popular they say 'wah! what a melody!' and stuff like that...
  and on the other side, many may not even mean 'melody' when they review a song, perhaps they are just so excited about the song itself that they write that everything about the song is great...
  hoping to read other opinions...
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Tue Oct 30 15:06:12 EST 2001
  
  eden: (i am listening to unnai nAn aRivEn as i write this - what a melody!) the primary criterion for a good melody is that it should "flow". it should flow like a river that is not bother by hurdles - it will just jump over it and keep going/flowing. that's what a good piece of music/melody is to me. if you want to talk in technical terms, there are lots of ways one good do this: avoiding certain jumps between notes, the grouping of notes in specific fashion, blah blah blah ... . melodies based in indian, especially carnatic music, are most often moving because they often use the techniques of nazhuving [:-)] from note to another (generally known as gamakam) which add to the beauty and define emotions properly. jAmbavAns like isairasigai could do a better job here.
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Tue Oct 30 15:12:01 EST 2001
  
  ayyO, embarrassing amount of mistakes (englipIsh-la). please "eccuse" me :-)
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Tue Oct 30 16:39:20 EST 2001
  
  Something like "andhi mazhai pozhikirathu.." or "poongathave thazhthiravai..." is what I consider a Great melody...
  
  "yen kaadhale.." is something that is also a good melody w/o much accompaniment.
  
  I guess the humm should sound good even when you just whistle.. BoneyM's "stilll I am sad" wud impress even my gran'ma. such is the power of a particular tune.
  
  "william tell overture" was a good example. There is another one from " the magnificent seven" that I cant recollect! You dont need a Boston Symph. Orch to convince someone the tune is great!
  
  
  
• From: melodian (@ 4.4.7.176) on: Tue Oct 30 22:46:27 EST 2001
  
  A good melody is well developed and has a certain personality or mood about it. it should not have wasted notes, no bridges or fillers and has a intuitive flow and not a calculated one. Examples of well developed melodies:
  
  1. Strangers in the night
  2. All songs of the movie Sound of Music
  3. Elton John songs usually are well developed
  4. ARR is very good at melody development though most of his melodies do not not pleasing and lack the punch. But, the best thing is his foottapping numbers are very catchy and well constructed in melody as well. very rare talent
  5. Ilayaraja' melodie structure is not as strong as MSV's but has a distinct personality and mood as well. IR makes it up with exceptional interludes. just minute examples of exemplary well developed melodies : IR's greatest: Yengum Niraindha Innum Yenna Sugamo; Kannan Oru Kaikuzhandai (just an idea of melody structure)
  MSV's: Ninaithen Vandhaal Nooru Vayadhu; Muthukkalo Kangal. SG were also excellent in melody: Nadigani Kadhali Yaaradi...
  Another great melody maker is: Ravindra Jain and also RDB.
  
  
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.5.252) on: Wed Oct 31 07:14:36 EST 2001
  
  Thanks Kiru, Arul & melodian for tech inputs. Thanks others too for examples (though I may not agree with the `popularity' defining greatness). I just stumbled on a link that tries to define music:
  
  http://home.att.net/~j-winsor/jhw_art1.htm
  
  This link relates music to biology which is quite interesting (& not to Shri Ramanujam:-). However, this does not explicitly define what is a "good" melody. I'm slowly resigning to the conclusion that rating a melody may be subjective:-)
  
  OTOH, it may be easier to discard songs as not melodious:-) for (a) not having a `flowing' tune or (b) not having a mood / emotion or (c) needing addl. accompaniment to tolerate etc. It's quite tough to rate on the positive scale, I think:-)
  
  A small analysis on the melodic front of a popular song, `ilaya nilA' (all IMHO):
  1. The pallavi is average (`ilaya nilA' to `vazhigiRadhE'). You try to sing without the accompaniment and you know. You need counter melody, or otherwise you need to extend like `nilaaa...' upto the timing when pozhigiradhe is supposed to start; otherwise there's stoppage (This is applicable to the pallavi of `malarE, mounamA' too)
  
  2. Anupallavi is better (`ulappOgum' to `vAnamE'). I am able to feel the `flow' while singing.
  
  3. Saranam is even better (`varum vazhiyil' onwards)
  
  Is the analysis OK? pundits enlighten please...
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Wed Oct 31 11:15:03 EST 2001
  
  //"I may not agree with the `popularity' defining greatness"//
  
  i dunno about that... all great songs I know have been popular! I dont know of a great song thats not popular among u, me and us!
  
  
• From: Trend the retarded logician (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Wed Oct 31 12:01:28 EST 2001
  
  Deva or SAR's songs are popular.Their songs are not great.So all the songs that are popular cannot be great.
  
  Few songs by(any Music Director) are great.These songs did not become popular.So,all the songs that did not become popular has to be great.
  
  
• From: Trend even more retarded (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Wed Oct 31 12:31:01 EST 2001
  
  Digression:
  
  The conclusion is:
  
  By liking the great songs(only the unpopular ones)
  and trashing all the popular songs as not great I feel supremely superior by the feeling I have a much better and refined taste(maybe aesthetic sense).This is my music life.I feel so happy and proud of it.
  
  Is there anyone else who feel the same way?
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.187) on: Wed Oct 31 12:45:25 EST 2001
  
  Trend..you are amazing. I cannot stop laughing. We need some one like you to handle such hot thread beds that exists in newtfmpage.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Wed Oct 31 15:49:43 EST 2001
  
  ha ha ha.. trend. The point behind Trend's post is that ... popularity could arise also because a lot of musically learned people could be impressed by a particular song .
  
  Popularity is not always the Deva SAR kind where its popular because its an "item" song.
  
  for e.g if eden likes a specific song then 1000 like minded people like eden may also like it and so the song would be considered popular.
  
  It is very rare that a quality song will escape most good people's attention!
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Wed Oct 31 17:38:03 EST 2001
  
  eden: bingo on iLaya nilA. contrast this with engkum niRaindhA iyaRkaiyin enna sukamO or UrUrA pOkum intha odampu. another song which doesn't have a great melody but a super-duper hit, imo, is centhAzam pUvil vandhAdum thenRal.
  
  

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