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Should TFM be rooted in Carnatic ragam to be good?

Topic started by Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on Thu May 28 20:40:58 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

After looking at many discussion threads, I have come to the conclusion that many DFers feel that TFM should be rooted in Carnatic ragams. This argument shows up in old/new song discussions, certainly in IR vs. ARR discussions. Should TFM never leave the confines of the Carnatic ragam structure? Could there be a benefit in sidestepping the ragam structure and moving to chord progressions like Rock'n Roll, Jazz and other Western music? Let's have a healthy discussion without fan club hysteria, please.

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Responses:

• From: S.Suresh (@ 164.164.127.8) on: Fri May 29 02:23:56 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  
  I do not know if TFM should move away from Carnatic Music. I am sure it will not move away because our whole mental makeup is towards Carnatic Music. Let us take the case of Rahman. Ask any of Rahman fans what they consider his best songs and I am sure you will get this list :
  1. Malargale Malargale
  2. Marghazi Poove
  3. Ennavale
  4. Nila Kaaygirathu
  etc etc.
  
  All these as you have noticed are based on Carnatic ragas. I am sure not many will rate "Muqabula" or "Columbus" or "Mustafa" as Rahman's great music. Though Kadalan had lot of populor songs which had good rythm, the song that attracted everybody was "Ennavale". So my argument is that our mental makeup is towards Carnatic Music. Though people may appreciate music based on chord progression or even Blues, they will not be able to replace the Carnatic music which is deep rooted in us.
  
  My theory is that it has a lot to do with our culture and upbringing. Since we are seeped into Classical music right from our childhood, one way or the other, it appeals to us more than any music. I am an ardent fan of Blues and I listen to a lot of Blues artist. After listening to Blues or Rock, when I listen to Carnatic Music, I am able to switch context immediately. But after listening to Carnatic Music, I dont feel like listening to any other music. Maybe for an American the reverse would be true. So however much a MD tries to move away from Carnatic ragams, he just cannot.
  
  
• From: M. Diwakar (@ j14.brf51.jaring.my) on: Fri May 29 10:58:07 EDT 1998
  
  Very very well said Suresh. I feel the same way.
  
  What matters is that the music is appealing - not whether it is Carnatic Music based or otherwise. And what is appealing is what every MD tries to find out movie after movie.
  
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Fri May 29 14:04:48 EDT 1998
  
  Thanks for two great tirade-free responses, guys. I too agree that ragam based songs will never leave TFM, nor should it. But I feel that other approaches are being welcomed in TFM and it is about time for TFM to travel other seas.
  Again this doesn't mean we forget our staple food, we should just be open to tasting other treats as well.
  I'm an ardent Jazz fan and enjoyed the swing-era style Jazz tune that IR employed in "Rum bum bum Aarambum, bum bum bum perinbam." The music was good but the writing left a lot to be desired. Similarly, "Hello mister ethir katchi" was a roaring bebop Jazz tune with excellent keyboards and percussion interludes in the middle, but alas, one had to stay with the song long enough to suffer through unbearable, unimaginative lyrics to enjoy the music.
  In fact, the problem may be with finding appropriate words for the rhyme schemes found in Western music.
  Kannadhaasan did a great job with Doris Day's "Ke sara sara" in the tamil version,"Chinna Pen Aana Pothilae." The music was preserved and the lyrics were certainly enjoyable. What's fascinating about this song is that Kannadhasan stayed within the tune of the original and still translated the English lyrics in Tamil.
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ dsi.mids.com) on: Fri May 29 14:21:04 EDT 1998
  
  Udhaya:
  
  I agree that both Rum Bum Bum and Hello Mr. Edhirkatchi were very imaginatively composed. But, if I remember right, neither were roaring hits.
  
  I think, at the end of the day, when (most) people want to relax, they crave familiarity, which in the case of TFM is raga-based Tunes. If you notice in the West too, extremely innovative music is hardly the same as extremely popular music.
  
  Another point is that with all the swaram-combinations of the melakartha and janya ragams, can any composition be truly called non-Carnatic-based? Maybe the percussion is what makes the difference in categorizing the music. Just my reNdaNaa thoughts...
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Fri May 29 14:57:23 EDT 1998
  
  Those were hardly rendanaa thoughts, Bhasker. Thanks for your informed views.
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ dsi.mids.com) on: Fri May 29 16:28:40 EDT 1998
  
  Udhaya:
  
  Bharat, not Bhaskar :--)
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Fri May 29 17:26:53 EDT 1998
  
  Sorry for the confusion, Bharat, it must be all the role-reversal movies I have been seeing lately like Kaadhala Kaadhala and Jeans.
  u~*
  
  
• From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net) on: Mon Jun 1 02:52:22 EDT 1998
  
  Udhaya,
  
  I agree with you that foreign influences used in an imaginative fashion can be very benificial to TFM. The songs that you have mentioned, "Rum Pum Pum" and "Hello Mr.Ethirkatchi" have also fascinated me. When we played the Tamil version of "Rum Pum Pum" in Hyd, many of my Telugu friends initially thought it was an English song. Similarly when I heard the initial music of "Hello Mr.EthirKatchi" I was stunned. It was really good.
  
  These experiments need two important ingredigents to succeed. A MD who is well versed in both the forms of music. A lyricist who is capable of producing good lyrics. We are lucky in TFM to have people like Raja and Rahman who understand both types of music. Unfortunately we dont have a Kannadhasan now.
  
  As Bharat ( and not Bhaskar :-)) pointed out, maybe we all want familiarity.
  
  More than the external influences, what I would love to hear is some indigenously produced "new sound". As an example I give you the music of "Andhi Mazhai". The beat of Mridagam accompanied to the drums was definitely a new sound. Similarly "Poonkathave" also had a new sound. Hope our MD's will be able to keep producing such music in the future too.
  
  Digression: Listen to Hariharn-Mahalakshmi duet in Poonthattam. Reethi Gowlai ragam is used in a very imaginative way. Excellent duet. Again a reference to Carnatic Ragam :--))))
  
  
• From: badri raghavan (@ 206.103.12.125) on: Tue Jun 2 01:02:22 EDT 1998
  
  carnatic music is a very rich, structured and comprehensive combination of swarams and swarasthanams. i have read that one british philospher said about tiruvalluvar "avar thodadhu onrumillai; thothadai azhagu paduthamal vittadillai". likewise there is nothing in carnatic that is not pleasant to hear nor is there anything elsewhere that is not in carnatic music.
  
  remember the scintillating scene in the movie
  "sankharabharanam" wherein sankara sastri is able to reproduce western notation easily and at higher notes whereas the guys who were shallow in western music were unable to repeat his brigas.
  
  i think tfm is an excellent way of delivering the inherent wealth of carnatic music to a large audience. one does not have to know a raga of a song but if he enjoys the melody then he is indirectly refining his taste for fine music.
  
  this is not to belittle the western or other forms of music.
  
  
• From: raja m (@ ww-te05.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Jun 2 21:01:57 EDT 1998
  
  Badri:
  
  A good point, I always liked to watch TV shows and hear radio programs where both the classical composition and a film song based on the same ragam is played, and over a period of time, one gets interested in classical music.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 161.225.48.3) on: Tue Jun 9 12:13:49 EDT 1998
  
  Hi BAdri,
  
  Valluvar
  "avar thodadhu onrumillai; thothadai azhagu paduthamal vittadillai" -
  -- deviation : valluvar has not spoken about brotherhood or brother/sister relation ship...
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: CASEY EDISON (@ ) on: Mon Nov 6 13:35:58 EST 2000
  
  What the heck,I think all of you are special in some way.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Mon Nov 6 17:27:27 EST 2000
  
  Ching Chak Ching Chak...
  Ram bam bam and Hello mister ethir katchi seem more blues to me than jazz...I may be wrong.
  Well anyways, I have something to add here. I feel that to appreciate different kinds of music, you have to know about its origin-history and how it evolved into what it is today.
  
  
• From: Q (@ 205.227.60.67) on: Mon Nov 6 21:47:26 EST 2000
  
  what abount vennila vennila venillave, in iruvar...even that seems to have jazz influences.
  
  
• From: G. Kuppusamy (@ 156.153.255.250) on: Tue Nov 7 04:19:42 EST 2000
  
  i second casey edison..good thought guys.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Nov 7 10:33:06 EST 2000
  
  I think hello mister is not an original composition. There was a discussion about that in these forums. It is surely jazz. Notice how it is sung..the notes are not just sung..they are dragged/morphed like in carnatic music.
  Anyways, I think we need to keep the spirit of carnatic music around. The gamakams, brigas etc if not trying to do improvisations of a few popular rAgams. Also, the rAgam should not be used just for a 'classical' song. It can also be used for others like a dappAnguththu song. This will demonstrate to people the very essence of the rAgam. Carnatic music is the music of our country. It is the cultural legacy of our ancestors and we cannot let it die. And TFM has a great part to play in this.
  
  
• From: fan (@ 63.226.194.22) on: Tue Nov 7 10:52:30 EST 2000
  
  only the opening is a copy from memphis stomp, rest are original, swamiji, the first part is jazz and you are right it can be classified as blues.
  
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 12:32:23 EST 2000
  
  Fan - The opening chord of hello mister ethir katchi(as in "kalam kalamaga" in punnagai mannan) is a D-7th #9 and it cycles around variations of 7ths (the chords are D7 #9 and G7 - and "boogie" left hand bass line on the piano) all throughout the song - a typical blues pattern. So I think the song is definitely blues and theres no jazz to it.
  On the other hand vennila vennila from iruvar is jazz (actually "cool" jazz). Its chord progression sounds very much so.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.206) on: Tue Nov 7 13:09:37 EST 2000
  
  I thought I would share a little bit of what I've gathered about jazz and its roots:
  I have read that jazz was birthed by African Americans by messing around with instruments from the civil war(armies have marching bands which explains the brass presence in jazz). Rock and roll came out of blues which is the oral tradition that the African Americans brought with them from Africa. Chuck Berry and Elvis later streamlined blues to make early rock and roll. So, both the blues and jazz are essentially rooted in the African American musical expression.
  
  Bebop jazz put the funk of blues in jazz and put a black signature on the Jazz scene which until the 50s had a big band sound--Glenn Miller and many other predominantly white jazz musicians practiced big band jazz and swing.
  
  Bebop and cool jazz brought jazz a lot closer to blues. The chief architects of this in jazz were Miles Davis and John Coltrane. Coltrane even has a fabulous collection called, "Coltrane plays the blues".
  
  So, "Hello Mr. Ethirkatchi" is both jazz and blues.
  
  

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