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Pronounciation Affair

Topic started by raycas (@ 212.186.40.21) on Sat Nov 17 11:42:39 EST 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

let me ask u people, how important is the correct pronounciation in now for example tamil songs to u? i just thought of this as i for example read that the singers of the song 'nadhirdhina' from PP had a terrible pronounciation of tamil words (and that this fact made the song unenjoyable), also other messages that hariharan has a bad pronounciation and so on.
and also, which of the non-tamilian singers do u think can pronounce tamil best? would especially like to what u think of the tamil pronounciation of the malayalee singers (KJY, chithra, sujatha, MG Sreekumar....)

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Responses:

• From: raycas (@ 212.186.40.21) on: Sat Nov 17 11:47:16 EST 2001
  
  to me, as i am a malayalee and as i don't really understand tamil, i don't care about the pronounciation...actually most of the time i don't even care about the lyrics (cause i just don't understand them), important is that it 'sounds' nice.
  BUT if u ask me the same thing about malayalam songs, then i must admit, i don't like the pronounciation of non-malayalees (hariharan, SPB, swarnalatha, Shankar Mahdevan...) at all.
  
  raycas
  
  
  
• From: Rajesh (@ 199.168.32.7) on: Sat Nov 17 16:26:56 EST 2001
  
  I would definitely think that Chitra's prounciation in Tamil is not bad at all. When you consider SPB, who is basically a Telegu guy, i can't think of an instance where he failed in pronounciation. On the other hand, i have seen a lotta places where Mano had slipped..i guess he is basically a tamilian. when it comes to pronounciation, my choices are SPB, Chitra (and ofcourse TMS).
  
  
  
• From: GV (@ 65.93.232.17) on: Sun Nov 18 00:01:05 EST 2001
  
  Rajesh:
  
  Mano is not a Tamilian. He is a Telugu. SPB is a Telugu, but he lived and went college in Madras (Chennai).
  
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.4.192) on: Mon Nov 19 00:20:31 EST 2001
  
  Chitra's Thamizh pronunciation is quite good with the rare exception of `ra' being pronounced `Ra' or close to that on occasions. ("idhu Ravi vaRmavin Ovium" in the song `thenpANdiththamizhE' was a surprise because, Ravivarma himself is a malayali & probably KSC thought Tamilians will pronounce varma as vaRma:-))
  
  Similarly, even though all malayalees pronounce the three la's well in malayalam (la, La & zha) often they miss in Thamizh. In the same song, KSC sings `thenpANdiththamiLE'. Similary there are cases in which KJY has sung L as l (kiLi as kili in `poovizhi vAsalil yAradai vandhadhu kiLiyE, kiLiyE) Here again, I would say the reason is probably `wrong assumptions as to how tamilians would pronounce the word'). I'm afraid it could be due to the fault of the total crew associated in the recording, giving wrong prompts to KJY/KSC...but with IR around, it could not happen...must be that KJY/KSC only are to blame...
  
  I can't recall any blemish from JC - best of the three when it comes to pronunciation. Sujatha too is good but lacks `azhutham'(stress), which may be again to enhance the appeal of the song as per current nuni nAkku trend. By and large, clean Thamizh from her. Quantity of MGS is too low to comment.
  
  All IMHO:-)
  
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.4.192) on: Mon Nov 19 00:35:25 EST 2001
  
  TFM has always been dominated by singers whose mother tongue is not Thamizh & most have done extremely well till early 90's. (TMS, PS, SPB, SJ, KJY, JC, KSC). If the team (esp. the team leader -either MD or FD) insists, it's not a big deal to meet this requirement even today. I don't think it is in the hands of the singer alone. Sadly, the listeners have stopped caring about this aspect and a group of them even seem to derive special thrill when it is deliberately distorted:-(
  
  
• From: GV (@ 65.93.233.222) on: Mon Nov 19 08:52:09 EST 2001
  
  eden:
  
  You are right in saying that Malayali singers "mis"pronounce certain Tamil words because of their "wrong assumptions as to how tamilians would pronounce the word". Tamil and Malayalam have a large number of common words, often meaning the same things, but written and pronounced differently.
  
  You also said - "....even though all Malayalees pronounce the three la's well in malayalam(la, La & zha) often they miss in Thamizh. That is where the problem lies. There are no three la's in Malayalam, but three different letters, la, La and zha, which are written and pronounced differently. This is the same with ra, pa, na , tha, etc, etc, etc. Unless a Malayali is well versed in conversational Tamil, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to pronounce some of these words "properly" in Tamil. You should also remember that there is no standardis(z)ed pronounciation among Tamilians themselves.
  
  In a lighter vein, I am a Malayali, just like Ravi Varma and Chitra. Until now, I thought "ravi
  vaRma" was the correct way to pronounce that name. Now that you told me how to pronounce that Malayali name properly, I will correct myself! Ravi Varma and Chitra, are you listening?:-)))
  
  
• From: raycas (@ 212.186.40.21) on: Mon Nov 19 10:35:11 EST 2001
  
  sorry for this question: who is TMS,PS and JC? hope with SJ s.janaki is meant...
  so eden,
  in ur opinion, except some small problems (like the 'ra' and 'la' issue), malayalees like yesudas, chithra and sugatha are rather good in pronouncing tamil words? okay, nice to hear that.
  
  raycas
  
  
• From: WhyNot (@ 203.24.100.131) on: Mon Nov 19 12:35:37 EST 2001
  
  I think songs should be viewed like mini-movies, little windows of entertainment. And singers should be versatile like actors. So if it fits the theme of a song, it's ok to change the voice, have a different accent or pronounce differently. Like Nadhir Dinha sounded good to me as I think the mispronounciation was meant to be in order create the aura for the song.
  Other than that, I find it quite hypocritical to be sticklers for pronounciation. Many Tamils speak Tamil so differently and also pronounce differently. But this only applies for original playback singers.
  I mean if for instance, in a song competition, where someone sings an originally well-pronounced SPB song and mispronounces in the event, it would sound quite nasty.
  And TMS is TM Soundararajan and PS is P Susheela, I think. But I don't know who JC and KSC are. I'm surprised that all these singers are not Tamils. That's new to me. But i don't think it's a big deal, this non-Tamil thing. Many people speak and live Tamil tho they are not originally Tamil.
  
  
• From: GV (@ 65.93.234.218) on: Mon Nov 19 17:57:55 EST 2001
  
  JC is Jayachandran, KSC is K.S. Chitra.
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Mon Nov 19 18:38:40 EST 2001
  
  chithrA was good in the early days; later, mabe due to heavy schedule (or i donno what) her pronunciation started slipping. she has spoiled many a good songs, the best example is ithazhil kadhai ezhuthum nEramithu :-(
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.160) on: Mon Nov 19 20:27:11 EST 2001
  
  tamil pronunciation of M.G.Sreekumar is the worst among malayali singers. It is heavily accented too.
  
  
• From: aruvi (@ 134.117.82.21) on: Mon Nov 19 21:01:00 EST 2001
  
  Swarnalatha has perfect tamil diction.
  
  
• From: anjali (@ 64.0.99.201) on: Mon Nov 19 21:04:02 EST 2001
  
  Forget the malayalee people, they are nothing compared to the North imports. The song welcome boys, form pryamanavalae, what the heck was he singing?? Udit Narayan? Oh my god does he even know what he is singing?
  
  
• From: aruvi (@ 134.117.82.21) on: Mon Nov 19 21:21:00 EST 2001
  
  That was Sukwinder Singh. I know what you mean. Forget the tamil parts, I couldn't figure out half the english words in that song. It took my friends and I a while to figure out the 'bash out with me' bit.
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Tue Nov 20 00:14:07 EST 2001
  
  aruL
  
  was idhazhil kadhai ezhudhum naeramidhu by Chitra? I was thinking that it was by Uma Ramanan(UR).
  
  Heavy digression
  btw for all practical purposes let us treate TMS as thamizhian though his mother tongue is sourashtra. because his father, forefather fivefathers all were born and brought up at Madurai, TamizhNadu.
  
  For those to have more info about sourashtra:
  
  Sourashtra is a dielect from Gujarath. i think it has declined in Gujarath itself and its dialepidated form of speaking(ie. thamizhish form of sourashtra) is still being patronised by those community people who are mostly concentrated in and around Madurai, Dindugul and Salem towns of TamizhNadu. Sourashtra community people were and are excellent weavers and dress designers. Historical evidence says a small group of 100 families were brought to thamizhnadu esp. to Madurai by the then Madurai ruler Thirumalai Naicker during 15th or 16th century(i dont exactly remember his period). During 60s a lot of sourashtra people were involved in thamizh movies. Singers like T.M.Soundararajan(TMS), S.C.Krishnan, A.L.Raghavan actors like T.R.Ramachandran, actresses like Devika etc were of Madurai origin Sourashtra community people. One very good contribution of them to thamizh filmdom is a clear pronounciation of the thamizh language which is highly appreciated.
  
  Digression ends(hopefully)
  
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.4.219) on: Tue Nov 20 00:18:44 EST 2001
  
  Digression:
  
  GV,
  -May be I'm wrong with the pronunciation of RavivaRmma, because there's just a dot on top of `mma' in written form. But my associates at office tell that varma is correct and not vaRma:-) (by capital R, I mean the letter used in pARa i.e. rock)
  
  -FYI, the la, La & zha of Malayalam are the SAME as in Thamizh (in fact all three of them use similar scripts too. zha-same script, La-90 degrees tilted & la-though different when used alone, in compound letters -kootu aksharangnal e.g the name Stella-, the same Thamizh script is used in Malayalam). FYI, I wrote `three la's' only as a general easy reference though I know they are different in script / pronunciation.
  
  -Again, there IS standard pronunciation for all these three letters in Thamizh (though many miss in their day to day speech). I also wish to add that historically Malayalm borrowed these letters from Thamizh only and not from `heaven':-)
  
  -And about the other consonants, the less said the better about the Malayali `snob' of better pronunciation over Thamizhs. Well, Thamizh does not have an official `ha' but it has definite grammar as to where one should pronounce `ka' and when `ha' (vali mihum & vali mihA idangaL). But Malayalam does have an official `ha', while they write `makan' and pronounce `mahan'(son). What nonsense? They can as well write `mahan' if the language boasts of a separate script for that! (Again the reason is history, Malayalam has evolved as a langauage with Thamizh as base & Sanskrit as cream, as preferred by certain scholars for snob value, much like preference of English words now which is the reason for nuni nAkku Thamizh . Hence as a language, it's a hybrid in consonant pronunication as well!)
  
  All the above IMHO and NOM to you GV:-)
  
  End digression.
  
  Now why do KJY & KSC pronounce certain Thamizh words incorrectly? I feel, they utter those words that are common with MY, in the same way any Keralite pronounces them in MY. Probably, thaththa (parrot) is uttered in Malayalm as kili & not kiLi:-)
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Tue Nov 20 00:44:49 EST 2001
  
  ah! enna idhu
  
  indha thread mozhi araichchi manRamaaga aagivittadhu?
  
  aamaam adhu araichchi-ya alladhu aRaichchi-ya? ;-)
  
  

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