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Ir's limitations

Topic started by krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com) on Wed Jul 8 15:52:59 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I know I am going to get a few bouncers.Let me start off any way & put
on a helmet.If one were to play with numbers, considering all of IR's
4000 plus songs ( atleast the popular ones) one could classify most of
them under 15 main ragas.( eg. mohanam, kalyani etc).I know of countless
songs he has done in mohanam & MMgowla.Well, one has to give dure credit
to him to have composed in nalinakanthi & kambiranattai.And how many
folk in sindhubhairavi.I understand that even a pure classical singer
limits himself to these standard ragas.That does not mean IR has to
tread on the same path ( applying these ragas).Well, has IR done in
umabharanam or dwijavanthi or any of the rare rags that dikshitar has
done.No comparisons here please.This is the challenge that lies ahead of
the future musicians.IR may have started on a western background, &
started to pick up on carnatic later ( with the help of TVG).I would
like to see him do more on some rare ragas.No more
mohanam,kalyani,S.bhairavi please.

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Responses:

• From: pg (@ client-116-45.bellatlantic.net) on: Wed Jul 8 17:23:28 EDT 1998
  
  Check out Ramaswamy Gireesan's page :
  http://www.m59.big.ac.at/~grama/
  
  So many rare ragas that rAjA has touched...
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Jul 9 09:50:27 EDT 1998
  
  I agree, there are a lot of Kafi's and Sindhubairavhi's, but he's also used so many other Melas like Latangi, Sarasangi, Hemavathi, Dharmavathi....It's true, it'd be nice to see an occasional Kamboji, Natakurinji, Dwijaavanthi....
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.27.248) on: Thu Jul 9 15:34:20 EDT 1998
  
  krishnan,
  even i was under the same impression as u.but after a visit to giresan's page i had to change my opinion quickly.some of the raagas i have not even heard before. also one of the reasons might be that it is easier to score a tune in mohanam,sindubhairavi etc.most of the other MD's too use these raagas. ARR uses kapi often.whereas raagas like pekada are rare to see in TFM.
  
  
• From: krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com) on: Mon Jul 13 15:44:47 EDT 1998
  
  Went thru R. gireesans site & a very good work I should say.Yes, he has done in a lot more ragas than I had heard.But what puzzles me is, why is he still sticking on to the traditional ragas.I have seen a trend Mayamalagowla for ramarajan,Suddha saveri for pandian, mohanam for rajanikanth.This does not mean he has'nt done in other ragas.He should not stuck in a loop.To quote, dikshatar has composed on over 250 ragas, of which only about 50-100 are sung.I am not trying to make comparisons here.
  
  In guru for example he used tradional ragas ( hamsanadham,gambinattai) though he shifted beautifully.I would like to see out of place ragas which makes the song even more interesting !!
  
  
• From: krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com) on: Mon Jul 13 15:48:11 EDT 1998
  
  Correction !! What I meant by out of place was' using ragas normally used in traditional settings
  used in different scenarios'.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ host16.globalcenter.net) on: Tue Jul 14 02:46:40 EDT 1998
  
  I stepped in here expecting, regretting heated exchanges. Wow, what a pleasant surprise. Great topic guys. Please indulge the ragam-challenged ones like me with informative discussions such as this. Krishnan, that was really news to me the IR picks a certain ragam for a certain hero's movies. Do you think that maybe producers ask IR to repeat the ragam after one such song becomes a super hit?
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.27.248) on: Tue Jul 14 03:59:34 EDT 1998
  
  krishnan,
  
  i have to disagree with u in that IR selects a raga for a hero.perhaps he selects a raga for a situation. if u take pandian for example we have
  ananda then sindhum,kuyile kuyile poonguyile in madhyamaavathi,kadhal mayakkam in suddha saaveri , kasthoori maane kalyaana thene in mohanam,etc.
  
  if u take rajnikanth we have
  
  aagaya gangai - mohanam
  amma endrazhaikaatha - kalyaani
  unnai thaane thanjam-sivaranjani
  maasi maasam-sudha dhanyaasi
  thaazham poove vaasam veesu-madhyamaavathi?
  nilave mugam kaatu-sindhu bhairavi
  oru naalum unnai maravaadha-"
  
  and many more....
  i do not think that IR can ever get stuck in a loop.he himself has told that he does not have any barriers nor does he have any rules for composing
  music.he is beyond everything, the ultimate experimentalist TFM has ever seen.
  
  
• From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net) on: Wed Jul 15 00:53:14 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  
  Raja does use a lot of Mayamalawagowla, Mohanam etc. But to be fair to him, he was the one who popularised MMG(Maya Malava Gowlai). Earlier to him there were excellent MMG. "Nilave Nee Oru" from Patinathar by TMS. "Kallelam" from MSV and a few more. Raja gave more dimensions to this raga than any other composer. Using MMG in an innovative way cannot be termed a limitation. "Poonkathave" is a legend now. Listen to "Kadhal Kavidhaigal" from Gopurangal Sayvadillai. Takes MMG along in a western arrangement. In "Mayila Pudichi" from Chinna Thambi he could get sadness out of MMG. "Rama Naaman" from Raghavenrar was very classical. They are many more examples. Similarly he has used Suddha Saveri too in a very innovative way.
  
  What I like about IR's raga based songs is that he is capable of bringing out different emotions from the same raga. For example, in "Sollayo Vai Thirandu" from Moga Mul he gives a sort of 'Viraha Thapam' to Shanmugapriya.
  
  Other than giving different perspective to the ragas, he has definitely used rare ragas. Natakapriya was one of them. His use of Rithi Gowlai is unparralled. Must have been one of the few to use Gowlai, Rasikapriya, Kanakangi, Paavani etc. Somehow I dont think he is restricting himself. His Poonthotam song has a different type of Rithi Gowlai.
  
  I guess use of rare ragas has never been his limitation. I think his limitation has been his inability to score good songs in PanthuVarali, Bhairavai, Atana and Sahana. I am sure he is capable of doing it but as to why he hasnt done it yet is a mystery to me.
  
  
• From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net) on: Wed Jul 15 00:56:26 EDT 1998
  
  Oops. It should be "Gopura Vasalile" and not "Gopurangal Sayvadillai"
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Jul 15 08:22:49 EDT 1998
  
  S.Suresh: A little digression, just to get your attention...what about rojAvai thAlATum - pantuvarALi from ninaivellAm nithyA - Is this it's correct Raga?, then I would say that it's a good Panthuvarali. He's used Hamsandhi a lot but no Poorvi Kalyani?!?!?
  
  What about Elzu Swarangal, it was a good one too, or was it in Suryakantham - part of a ragamalika?
  
  I too wonder why he hasn't given us a Begada, Kamboji, Dwijavanthi, Sahana(Narasimhan and Deva have both given us this beautiful Ragam in a good form). Maybe he feels that these Ragams should start and end with Carnatic Music and must not be 'deviated from' in TFM. I have heard Kamboji in Malayalam music, perhaps if IR is given a Pure Classical score, he'll use these Ragams in it. I also feel that there are very few Classical compositions in these Ragas(I can only think of Akhilaandeshvari in Dwijaavanthi), perhaps they have a limited expansion level, as IR is the ultimate experimentalist.
  
  I wish an interviewer would ask him about this stuff, I'll be very interesting to hear his views.
  
  
  
  
• From: krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com) on: Wed Jul 15 11:29:14 EDT 1998
  
  I can list 2 instances of raja's brilliance :
  
  1. the song 'vennilavu' in chinna mappilai was set to madhyamaavati.For such a dream sequence , one would naturally choose pantuvarali or a MM gowla janyam since there is lot of strain in these ragas.This was a real wild gamble.ARR choosing pantuvarali for hey rama ( rangeela) was orthodox( no experimentation).
  
  2.The song 'raman aandalum' in mullum malarum in andolika.Amazing if u have already heard raga sudha rasa.What a contrast !!.
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Jul 15 12:15:51 EDT 1998
  
  Krishnan: How can you say ARR's choice was Orthodox for the song Hai Rama, the Rangeela Music score was written for the Hindustani Audience, who are not used to the Panthuvarali Ragam at all. It was a total experiment on his part, to have used a pure Carnatic Ragam for a non South Indian audience, who in retrospect enjoyed the song for it's brilliance. As Suresh said, IR hasn't done that may Panthuvarali's that are filmy, as opposed to classical.
  
  Please don't turn this thread into an ARR/IR war....It's been going well so far, so lets not spoil it. We've lost Srikanth due to stuff like this.....
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.27.248) on: Wed Jul 15 13:03:12 EDT 1998
  
  IR has tried out ragas like saindhavi,rathnakanthi,rasikaranjani etc according to what is given in gireesan's page.most of the songs and the films are not well known. perhaps he would have also composed in sahana,dwijavanthi etc. for some remote films which we do not know. i personally feel that the inherent melody of mohanam,sudha dhanyaasi,saaveri etc. makes it easy to adapt these songs for films.i think irrespective of whoever scores a tune in mohanam,
  the song would be melodious.it is such a type of raaga.i think that's why IR might not have produced more songs in other rare raagas. or it might be that he is saving it for some future experiments.
  
  
• From: Chandramouli (@ alpxy1.att.com) on: Wed Jul 15 14:52:09 EDT 1998
  
  Geetha: I think Hindustani equivalent of Panthuvaraali is Purya Dhanashri. Its quite prevelant in HFM too. I have heard a few songs in that ina program in Music Asia. The fact that Panthuvarali's eqvlt in Hindustani is Purya Dhanadhri was something I learnt from this forum.
  So I dont think its uncommon in HFM.
  
  
• From: krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com) on: Wed Jul 15 17:54:03 EDT 1998
  
  Getting into talam.Is it not that most of IR's songs are in adi , ofcourse I have heard a few roopakam ( like aagaya vennilavae).As a matter of fact even composers like Papanasam sivan's songs( a lot of them) were in adi.If u listen to dikshitar's navagraha krithis they are all in different talas.IR should experiment in more talas.Pls leave the 4 by 4 & waltz!!!.
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ 205.147.245.41) on: Thu Jul 16 11:58:41 EDT 1998
  
  krishnan,
  I think 4 by 4 or waltz is the order of the day.Thats arguably the easiest for dance movements as it gets tough for the artist who perform to a non 4 by 4.I think "Kaala kaalamaga" from punnagai mannan had a diff rythimic struct and it was beautiully executed by kamal and revathi.
  Maybe thats the reason U find most of the compositions with 4by4 talam.
  
  
  
• From: Punnaiyakodi Marakaanam (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Thu Jul 16 13:53:15 EDT 1998
  
  I know that there is four beats per cycle, three beats per cycle, six beats per cycle. But what is 4 by 4 ?
  
  

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