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do MDs have muthrai?

Topic started by badri raghavan (@ 206.103.12.125) on Mon Jun 15 23:50:42 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

every music director wants to leave a stamp of his contribution on every creation of his. but do they have one and is that discernable by the audience?

in carnatic music, thyagaraja swami's krithis have the muthrai of thyagaraja, dikshitar's have guruguha and shyma sastri's shymakrishna.

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Responses:

• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ spider-wg024.proxy.aol.com) on: Fri Oct 29 04:14:54 EDT 1999
  
  Revive....Come on guys,interesting stuff. Let's get into the composing styles of MDs and try exploring the tune characteristics (tune signature as SK would call it:-) , orchestra arrangement etc. To be concise, how would I be able to identify the composer by just listening to a song ? What makes the composition HIS own ? What was the feature (maybe scale shifts, grahabedam, unconventional placement of instrument pieces,usage of favourite raagaas) that the composer implemented often ? Please consider as many MDs as possible.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.155) on: Fri Oct 29 08:45:03 EDT 1999
  
  Well, I may not be able to technically explain this: IR's songs always had a `soft' nature - even when it's a `dappanguthu', it used to be soft on the ears, whether the decibel level of individual components are maintained in a special way or the relative amplitude got manipulated or the coherence has been excellent... whatever may be the technical reason, it was always soft - so coolly blended, sometimes even with heavy orchestration! That, according to me is a trade mark of Raja - soft on ears! On very rare occasions, it used to be threatened, though - like the `pey ottum' interlude in `Kathirundhu' song of Vaidehi Kathirundhal... But such are real, real exceptions when you compare with all the noise that today's popular MDs generate (or the high pitch irritations earlier served out by MDs colloborating with TMS)!
  
  
• From: Velaiyaththavan (@ 129.252.22.214) on: Fri Oct 29 11:58:39 EDT 1999
  
  IR has "raja muththirai" :-)
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ wstisp1c01.ml.com) on: Fri Oct 29 13:36:39 EDT 1999
  
  sl,
  I can not describe each MD's style in terms of ragas. But I always find out the MD from the music
  arrangements. For example in KVM's songs, the interlude, most of the time ends with a bell piece. Most of V. Kumar songs, the sandham has two distinct parts. E.g - mogam ennum ragam padum from the movie ellaikum kalam varum. The sandham has two distinct parts, a slow and relatively past paced. There are other songs like ' unnidem mayanguren', modhonavatham.
  I dont think, IR songs need any mention here, as they are very unique.
  
  e.hari
  
  
• From: ST (@ 216.32.18.74) on: Fri Oct 29 16:19:48 EDT 1999
  
  IR has "raja muththirai" :-)
  HO ho hoooo
  
  
• From: Kooththabiraan (@ dhcp-css-consult-12.lg.informix.com) on: Fri Oct 29 17:11:37 EDT 1999
  
  I new to this forum, please dont leave CR Subburaman, SV Venkataraman, TR Papa, G Ramanathan, SM Subbiah Naidu, Vijaya Bhaskar, Saluri, V Kumar, Shankar Ganesh, Rajan Nagendra, Salil Choudhry(his Tamil composed songz).Interesting topic, innum ezhuthunga.
  
  
  
• From: Velaiyaththavan (@ 129.252.25.56) on: Fri Oct 29 18:02:22 EDT 1999
  
  thx for laughing. I am previleged :-)
  
  
• From: aruvi (@ spc-isp-tor-uas-107-93.sprint.ca) on: Fri Oct 29 23:38:21 EDT 1999
  
  Are these stamps valid on letters?
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ vengu.umsl.edu) on: Fri Oct 29 23:54:39 EDT 1999
  
  aruvi,
  
  :-)))))))))))))))))
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ spider-wd023.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Oct 30 01:05:31 EDT 1999
  
  Ravi,bb etc. What happened to the recent responses ? Anyway, I read through them this morning. Eden, Hari good observation. Actually, you do not need to be raga savvy at all. Just put down your observations pertaining to various facets of composition like santham (metre), the arrangement etc. Since you all have made a mention of IR, let me start off with his typical tune characteristics that I have observed.
  His late 70s tunes , to me, were the best he ever composed, there were classics like 'Kuyile kavikkuyile','VeeNai meettum kaigaLe', 'Solaikkuyile','Naan pesa vanthen' etc. (The last song's pallavi was lifted from a violin piece in the song 'Badi Sooni Sooni Hai Zindagi yeh zindagi, sung by KK, composed by SDB. But that is OK, the rest of the song was his own and brilliant too). This could be because he followed the tradition laid down by his predeccessors, that is composing the base melody first. He then turned his attention towards fusion (which is his passion) and probably it would have been very convenient for him to lay down the chord progressions first ( suitable for a consciously chosen raaga and this is the reason why he covered more raagas than most other composers) and then develop the base melody. The chord progressions would become the backbone for the rest of the orchestra arrangement to base itself on. It is actually easy to guess the chords for an IR song (atleast most songs) by tracking down the bass movements alone (which is easier to grasp than the chords). So you see, he had his reasons for not letting singers improvise much, excessive sangathis might disrupt the movement of song as a whole and can sound out of place when the rest of the paraphernalia is chords dependent. But the negative point for a melody lover is that the resulting tune may have a staccato nature to it, that is there is no mellifluous flow of melody, the melody seems to come through in spurts and the composer could get rule bound. There is another feature/formula he implemented innumerable times. The tune of the pallavi would be repeated within the stanzas in a different scale. Example :
  
  Sundari KaNNal oru sethi (dalapathy) has the line marappen annaaL vara koodum and the preceding line (I forgot) with the same tune as the pallavi just repeated in a higher scale.
  
  ANNaathe aaduraar oththikko (aboorva sagotharargaL). Note the tune for the lines 'Villaathi villanum.... vanthinge thangaNum...',it is an instance of the tune/santham for the pallavi repeated in a higher scale.
  
  Composers/performers like RajaG, Srikanth, Srinath can join in and cover other aspects in IR's composing psychology. Comments welcome...
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ spider-wd041.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Oct 30 01:14:23 EDT 1999
  
  What is happening guys ? I am unable to see any of my responses to this thread .
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ spider-wd041.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Oct 30 01:27:29 EDT 1999
  
  e.Hari, have you noticed that KVM often composed preludes/interludes more suitable as BGMs for thrillers/murder mysteries , for love duets? 'Mullaippoo pallakku povathenge' (SPB and PS) has a prelude that could have well been a BGM for a scene with Nambiar or Ashokan (with a big mole , ever widening eyes and probably clean shaven head).The interludes for 'Neram nalla neram' (TMS and PS in 'thanippiravi) fall under the same category.
  
  
• From: cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on: Sat Oct 30 05:31:21 EDT 1999
  
  i don't know if my observations fit into this thread, but i have always felt that IR's flute interludes have a distinct stamp about them. especially with the onset of gramarajan, for whom he had a standard set of tunes, most of them heavily dominated by the flute.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.145) on: Sat Oct 30 08:21:35 EDT 1999
  
  cram!
  That way he had specific application of a set of instruments for each of the time periods and /or type of movies / directors he has worked with! for e.g. his multiple violin orchestration in WCM style was pre-dominant during a specific period (Bhuvana oru ?, Sigappu rojakkal etc.) That definitely had a stamp of IR & hitherto never attempted in TFM, IMO!
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.246) on: Sat Oct 30 19:52:02 EDT 1999
  
  Sriram Lakshman,
  Nice post. Even I have observed IR repeating lines from a pallavi albeit at a higher scale in the song.But Iam not sure whether that is characteristic of only IR's songs. I have observed even MSV doing it sometimes. for eg. in 'namma ooru singaari' the last line of the pallavi 'manmathan vanthaanaa' is exactly the last line of the charanams.(even words are the same).
  
  also in 'malare kurinji malare' song, the last line of pallavi 'thalaivan sooda nee malarnthai' is the same as the last line of the charanams.(without change of scale).
  
  So i guess IR made it a little different by repeating the line but with a changed scale.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.246) on: Sat Oct 30 20:05:22 EDT 1999
  
  One of the things that I have observed in IR's compositions is that he always tries something different in the second interlude. The first interlude sort of stays with the tune of the pallavi, but in the second interlude he deviates a bit, changes rhythm sometimes but somehow manages to come back to the original scale/rhythm. This has amzed me a lot.
  
  examples:
  
  1. naan thedum sevanthi poo - awesome second interlude with violins, seems to be going away from hindolam and in an instant he joins the original rhythm.
  
  2. thendral thaan - keladi kanmani - KJY,chithra
  
  the percussion in te song follows right up to the second interlude but just stops at the start of the interlude. a beautiful violin interlude follows and finally the percussion is again brought on just in time before the start of the second charanam.
  
  3. deepangal pesum - devathai
  
  just to give u a more recent example. the beat changes in the second interlude and then gets restord once SPB charan starts singing the second charanam.
  
  the above style is not observed in all of his songs but in a considerable no. of them. Also rarely does raja repeat his interludes (example: pottu veitha kaadhal thittam)as compared to MSV.
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ spider-wc051.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Oct 30 21:31:30 EDT 1999
  
  Vijay, what you are talking about (in 'namma ooru singari' and 'malare...') are anupallavis which help in linking the song back to the pallavi, not a part of the charanam.
  Yeah, even I have noticed rhythm,tempo changes in IR songs.
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ spider-wc051.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Oct 30 21:49:44 EDT 1999
  
  Vijay, what was the need to be so defensive ?:-).Anyway I do not think that repeating the tune for the pallavi on a higher scale is a puthumai , it is a formula for filling up the stanza.
  
  
• From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Sat Oct 30 22:10:10 EDT 1999
  
  fellas,
  
  this repetition/variation is a bAlapAdam for anyone aspiring to be a composer in the WM "language". it might seem a bit of cheating, but becomes extremely handy in composing complex pieces. repetition/variation, in a way, is "required" (?!?!) when one goes beyond the homophonic (single melody with chord support) to the contrapuntal (many melodic lines playing at the same time) texture. many many many songs of ir (to the extent that almost all of his!) uses this technique extremely well. as sriram mentioned, initially ir seemed to have followed msv's style, but as he became more comfortable with wcm compositional techniques, he perfected his own, what our seattle thamizhar calls, "algorithm". devising one's own "algorithm" is not an easy one, as kiru pointed out in another thread long time back, but too much dependence on it becomes stale after some time.
  
  one of the ir's stamps in his early 80's songs was the usage of the hi-hat during the interludes.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.28.90) on: Sun Oct 31 00:17:31 EDT 1999
  
  SL,
  defensive about what? I did'nt get you.
  
  

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