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Advantages of composing prewritten lyrics

Topic started by Udhaya (@ 64.136.27.31) on Tue Aug 12 11:51:47 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

While listening to many old songs, the advantages of prewritten lyrics for composers and singers became evident. I will start with two examples and we can add more as we discover them.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: rjay (@ 156.77.105.123) on: Tue Aug 12 14:52:51 EDT 2003
  
  vijay
  
  I had clearly qualified my statement, you dropped the two words in that sentence and took it out of context. I said, Raja's skill did not impress me IN BHARATHI. Especially I was totally
  put off by his uninspired and uninspiring, run of the old mill tune for Agni Kunchondru kanden. Such a magnificent powerful lyric and such a great music maestro, is this the best he could deliver?
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 156.77.105.123) on: Tue Aug 12 15:09:55 EDT 2003
  
  vijay, my previous posting reads a little angry, actually, I forgot the smiley's! ;) ;) ;)
  
  The mixup is because of the way I have worded it,
  I reiterate that my judgement was only on that album.
  
  Manadhil urudhi vendum and P.Suseela's suttum vizhi chudarthan (was it IR or GA) are
  good examples.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Aug 12 15:10:57 EDT 2003
  
  rjay, I thought you were quoting Bharathi as as example for making a broader statement on his abilities. Atleast, thats how it came across to me. If not, then I stand corrected. I agree, it was not impressive at all, with KJY in an aging voice :-)
  
  Talking about repeatability of chandhams MSV sang the tunes of "maambazhathu vandu", "pesuvadhu kiliya", "veedu varai uravu" and "chinna chinna aasai" (Roja) and used the lyrics interchangeably, ofcourse the first couple of lines only. That was in the Jaya TV programme.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Aug 12 15:13:26 EDT 2003
  
  Rjay, I assumed smileys after your post :-))I hope to have not annoyed you. Would like to read your posts more in this thread and the other one too. The problem is with a lot of trolls starting unwanted threads here it gets pushed to the archives easily. I'll probably talk to bb into making that a permamnent thread.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Aug 12 15:14:21 EDT 2003
  
  Rjay, suttum vizhi chudar was by GA. A great one!
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Aug 12 15:24:53 EDT 2003
  
  A couple of more thoughts/comments:
  
  1. Udhaya, in "ponnezhil poothadhu "(Kalangarai Vilakkam) when TMS sings "sol, sol, sollll..." and stretches the word with brighas, you could almost sense a feeling of protest/demand on his part. Assuming it was for pre-written lyrics its a classic example of the word provoking the composer/singer
  
  2. Would like to know from someone here on how composer-MDs like TR work. That would be interesting too. I have a gut feeling that lyrics were written by him earlier probably esp. in songs like "indira logathu" etc.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Aug 12 15:29:59 EDT 2003
  
  should read as.."lyricist-MDs like TR"..
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 156.77.105.123) on: Tue Aug 12 15:52:19 EDT 2003
  
  'Would like to know from someone here on how composer-lyricists like TR work.'
  
  THough I do not know about other composer-lyricists, I set myself to write songs and tune them, just as a challenge to myself. You are right, the brain alternates between lyric writing and melody making, pretty much like a MD and lyricist colloborating, but once in a while it
  gives a full born melody and lyric without forewarning. For instance, I got the following line with melody in Kanada:
  
  Maalaiyil Solaiyil Maadugal Meyum
  Velaiyil mellenap poonguzhal oodhum
  Kannanaik kandathundo?
  
  Obviously, an unconscious rip-off off Alaipayudhae but still I was stunned by the
  song.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Aug 12 16:34:00 EDT 2003
  
  Rjay, sounds interesting.
  
  
• From: ravi (@ 152.86.133.139) on: Tue Aug 12 16:58:10 EDT 2003
  
  Hi
  I have been following forums on this site and would like to know is there any one who can compose music for telugu lyrics.
  
  I would like to share my lyrics and learn more skills in tuning and other song writing skills.
  
  Please email me if anyone is interested....
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Aug 12 18:14:55 EDT 2003
  
  Ravi, did you see this thread? :-)
  http://www.newtfmpage.com/forum/6611.16.58.22.html
  
  
• From: Kaumudi (@ 136.142.153.250) on: Wed Aug 13 08:44:54 EDT 2003
  
  IR has composed a few songs for pre-written lyrics in telugu. One of the very popular ones is "Laali laali" from Swathimuthyam (Chippikkul muthu). The story goes - IR had already composed a tune for a lullaby and was waiting for the lyricist C.Narayana Reddy to arrive. However CNR had arrived with the lyrics already written since he was inspired to write some good lyrics and decided to convince IR to compose a tune for these lyrics. Because IR couldn't fit his original tune for these lyrics, he came up with a totally different tune which is what is known today.
  
  If one notices, the lyric is more like a poem with rhythm and rhyme in place. Given this condition, the tune for this song came out beautifully and PS did complete justice to it.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 69.19.169.13) on: Wed Aug 13 09:09:14 EDT 2003
  
  rjay,
  Just saw your Kannan lyrics. Nice build up and element of surprise. You should make it the start of a song and build on it.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 156.77.105.123) on: Wed Aug 13 09:39:39 EDT 2003
  
  Thanks Udhaya. I sat down and wrote the rest of the song in a second sitting, will share it in another thread.
  
  I observed that when you write with self-consciousness, the conscious mind would not wait to get such long pallavis. It would be more comfortable building in pieces and assembling - something like:
  
  Maalaiyil Solaiyil Maadugal meyum
  Kaatrinil mellenak Poonkuzhal ketkum
  Kannanin Paattu varum
  
  Whereas if you get lost in the music or the chandam's monotony in a trance, the conscious mind slows down and allows deeper combinations to emerge and surprise. It is all about trusting yourself and letting go.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 156.77.105.123) on: Wed Aug 13 09:42:17 EDT 2003
  
  Ravi (Balu)
  Go ahead and email your lyrics to me, let me
  try to tune it and arrange it for you..
  rjaymidi@yahoo.com
  
  rjay
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.241) on: Wed Aug 13 11:40:25 EDT 2003
  
  Very nice thread and as usual excellent contributions from the old mafia :-)
  
  I do a little bit of composing myself and write my lyrics too for some of the songs. Sometimes I become irritated with the repetition of the ideas in the lyrics that I throw them out and start looking out for a person who could supply me with lyrics for the tunes and I now deal mostly with Udhaya. I must say he is a wonderful writer. What started as a "lyrics for tune" relation later developed into a bilateral one - I started liking some of his prewritten poems which inspired me to make some tunes. Sometimes it becomes so tough especially for non-uniform sandham, that I would ask him if it can be modified a little and he is always amenable. This experience of song making has taught me the following:
  
  (1) Composing a song with the same sandham from the beginning to the end is tough for a composer. He has to come with innovative brighas, emotional infusions and a different tune for different line.
  
  (2) Composing a song on the fly and asking the lyric writer to write lyrics is tough for a lyric writer, but if he is a spontaneous spout of ideas and words, this job is eased.
  
  (3) When composing for same sandham, sometimes you run out of variations in tune ( sic: Srikanth). If you are composing for a light song, the best thing to do is look for anya swaras, i.e., you would probably have based the song on a particular raga or a scale. Just move out of the raga momentarily. I have tried this technique and have found that, I have been able to capture a lot of brighas and new phrases. Not only does this help building a tune up with many variations, but also gives life to songs which would otherwise sound a little trite since they would follow a particular ragam.
  
  (4) When composing songs, there are already many established sandhams. As vijay had mentioned about MSV's interview where he compares the sandhams of 4 songs and goes on to say that they are interchangeable, the sandhams could come from established poetry formats and hence may pose a challenge to the composer. For example, as weird it may sound, try singing "chinna chinna aasai" in the tune of "chinna chinna roja, singaara roja". You will find that with minor adjustments the tunes are interchangeable. Other examples are
  
  a) mandram vandha thendralukku - ennai thottu sEdhi sonna
  
  b) kuyila pudichu kooNdil adaichi - unnai nenachen paattu padichen - entire pallavi
  
  c) kuyilukk kuppam - thooLiyile aada vandha - kaaththirundhu kaathirundhu kaalangaL
  
  So how does a composer make more songs thus without the lay listener really knowing it ? :-)
  
  (i) Change the starting notes and the pace.
  
  ku yi luk kup pam - ku yi luk kup pam = ga ma pa pa pa - ga ma pa pa pa
  
  thoo Li yi le - aa da van dha= ma ma pa pa - ma ma pa pa
  
  kaath thi run dhu - kaath thi run dhu = pa pa pa pa - pa dha pa dha
  
  (ii) Change the ragam
  
  This technique has been handled even by St.Thyagaraja ( No disgrace to the saint intended). A comparison between two songs - "Marugelara" (ragam Jeyanthashree) and "PaNdu reethi gOlu" (ragam hamsanaadham) would tell us this. The charanams especially are fully interchangeable. YOne can take the lines of marugElara and sing in the tune of paNdu reethi. Since ragams are different it is not apparent to the listener.
  
  (iii) Change the mood of the song
  
  kuyilukkuppam is a "happy" kinda song. ThooLiyilE is a lullaby and "kaaththirundhu kaaththirundhu" is the night song of a loner. Three different ways to make songs though all start of with minor scales. The mood of the song will "also" be influenced by the choice of singers.
  
  (iv) Change the orchestration
  
  This is a sub-set of the "mood" of the song. I do not have to elaborate on how the afore-mentioned songs are orchestrated by IR.
  
  Another beautiful example is the song : "kaakkai chiraginile". I have heard many tuned versions of this beautiful poem. The composers of these tunes have been given the lyrics - "kaak kai chi ra gi ni lE" = " thaa na tha na na na naa". Now it is left to them to stretch the "thaa" and "naa" to the extent they wish, to create a tune.
  
  'll contirnue in the lines later with some more examples..
  
  
• From: Srik (@ 64.80.98.165) on: Wed Aug 13 12:02:43 EDT 2003
  
  ms, very cler good ! also thanks for getting back on track Has anyone heard about this,
  Some composers like MSV have framed different sandams based on who sings the lyric -- male or female . You will find that there are different sandams for male vocals, totally different set for female vocals. Sriram Laxman, another good (old) newtfmpage contributer is an expert in this, i wish he explains here some of the songs framed in that manner.
  
  
  
  

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