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Western & Indian

Topic started by Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on Thu Aug 23 17:21:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have seen the following comments a lot of times in this DF.

"the instruments used are western" .... "This song is like "western music" " etc..

I want to know, what is the definition of tamil sounding music and what are tamil instruments? I asked this question to a well know lyricist and he asked me to look up "silapathigaram" for the answer. I dont think he was trying to answer my question.

Among the instruments that have been used in the last 4 decades by tfm MD's I think a majority of instruments were western.

So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?

for e.g I wud say guitar, violin, flute, drums etc as western instruments and tabala as Indian (although i dunno if its tamilian) ------ to shatter some myths about the western/indian definitions.

so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades. and shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.

I am more interested in tamilain than Indian.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Thu Sep 6 12:23:48 EDT 2001
  
  oops! didnt refresh for a while so didnt see any of the posts following mine. enna mannichidunga no more digresion
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Thu Sep 6 12:26:59 EDT 2001
  
  pollapu and suresh .. a c&p of my prev posting!
  
  //"the concept of free world and free viewing has been narrowed down to adopting the sexual culture.
  
  rather than adopting the silicon valley that the west boasts of we have adopted only the sex part "//
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 12.5.10.130) on: Thu Sep 6 12:27:54 EDT 2001
  
  also guys, this is very general topic, I kindly request no "arr/ir" silly feelings.
  :)
  
  ioooo bharath...!
  
  
• From: .. (@ 12.5.10.130) on: Thu Sep 6 12:30:08 EDT 2001
  
  From: srikanth (@ 24.4.253.20) on: Fri Aug 31 18:42:41 EDT 2001
  
  
  it is my mistake to have discused music here agan:)
  
  i never thought i will need this again.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Thu Sep 6 12:41:14 EDT 2001
  
  srikanth,
  
  I'm going to ask you a idiotic question.:)
  
  What is the element inherent in Classical music esp in Carnatic that reaches and touches God(let's assume)?(I'm not talking abt the lyrics) Is it the sound,rhythm,flow of the music,tone of the voice or voice modulation?
  How is this God touching or reaching music similar in Western Classical?
  Interested in hearing your ideas.:)
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 12.5.10.130) on: Thu Sep 6 13:45:23 EDT 2001
  
  trend...:)
  before bharath could take it away!...to some gay issues. I will try answer you.
  
  if you think carantic music touches GOD (even if you assume) I dont agree. Basically carnatic was created to praise god. so that tradition is followed thats all. I get the same devotion in ayar padi maligai'l.
  
  btw:Is there a song in carnatic which talks about nature or subject other than god?...we need to analyze this.
  
  Might be , IR (who contributes in Raga of the song thread) can help us here.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 12.5.10.130) on: Thu Sep 6 13:51:06 EDT 2001
  
  btw: I was asking IR are there songs about other subjects in carnatic. I dont know the answer to this.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Thu Sep 6 13:55:08 EDT 2001
  
  "thappu pannitten parvathi, naan thappu panniten"
  
  i wont digress any more :-)
  
  ((((i was about to say the big crimes commited by IR :-) by introducing the "pazha pona " western culture and spoiling ours. and how ARR is "pathukaathufying" it:-).
  
  But then the "silly feeling" wud shoot srikaths BP to 300. )))))
  
  aathuthaan free'ya vitutten!
  
  
• From: Velaiyaththavan (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Thu Sep 6 14:27:49 EDT 2001
  
  kaNNai thorakkaNum saami brings great devotion.
  
  
• From: whynot (@ 203.24.100.132) on: Thu Sep 6 14:50:17 EDT 2001
  
  Did i hear gay issues being mentioned?
  Well, the current TN chief minister is gay herself eh?
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Thu Sep 6 14:58:31 EDT 2001
  
  whynot (@ 203.24.100.132)
  
  :-)
  
  i have heardthis b4. but from people who hate her!
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Thu Sep 6 15:01:51 EDT 2001
  
  srikanth,
  
  Then my next question should be:-)
  How does a song attain that devotional level?In most of the cases I think it is possible to identify if a particular song was intended to be a devotional song or not.So,is it possible to say
  A particular combination of instruments in a particular rhythm with a certain divine sounding voice gives rise to a devotional song?
  Can the devotional songs be composed only intuitively(unlike other kinds of songs which can be composed either way)?
  ARR seems to me to compose non-intuitively.
  Any idea how ARR composed "Anbendra mazhaiyile"(which is the closest to a devotional song from him)?
  
  Am I boring you a lot?:):)
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Thu Sep 6 15:11:41 EDT 2001
  
  trend,
  
  margazhi thingalallava! ( i though she was singing to praise God)
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 12.5.10.130) on: Thu Sep 6 15:12:24 EDT 2001
  
  trend...this is very subjective, differs from person to person. like for one person above kannathorakanum sami is devotional.
  
  (btw: there are more from arr , prelude of meetu podu:)
  
  Am I boring you a lot? -- not yet because, you are competing with Bharath :) :)
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Thu Sep 6 15:30:12 EDT 2001
  
  rAgams are called paN in sangam tamil literature. Ofcourse, these were used for many secular things. There are quite a number of folk songs which are carnatic rAgams. Pushpavanam Kuppusamy's master/phd thesis is the roots of classical music is folk music. (From what I know this should be a obvious fact..no need for a thesis). I think there is a book called 'tholkAppiyaththil isaikkuripugal' which talks about these. Our poetry is very much linked to our music. That is why the thAlam for a poem is fixed. But can be sung in different rAgams.
  
  Anyways, this is why I argued with KS that it is the culture that is producing good music not religion. The great composers which NCR refers to used/evolved carnatic music for devotional purposes that is all. (Note, religious people were the intellectuals those days ..even in the west ).
  
  Re: ARR and devotional music. I am sure he can come up with something good for things like bhajan.Anythhing that has a rhythm to it.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Thu Sep 6 15:30:31 EDT 2001
  
  srikanth,
  
  "Am I boring you a lot? -- not yet "
  Lemme know when you reach that point!!Till then:
  
  OK give me your subjective opinion.If you were asked to compose a devotional song,how would you go about it?
  1.Look for divine inspiration(don't take this serious):)
  2.Look for the sound, rhythm and flow that makes a devotional song and work on that idea creatively.
  3.Go for a new sound which feels devotional to you and you think you can convince others.
  
  If you choose 2 or any other option not listed here please explain more.
  Does it look like Test of Written English (TWE)Question ?:):)
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Thu Sep 6 15:51:17 EDT 2001
  
  //"Am I boring you a lot? -- not yet because, you are competing with Bharath :) :) "//
  
  ithula thaan enakku enna oru perumai!
  
  sorugittanda! samio
  
  
• From: UV (@ 134.113.203.137) on: Thu Sep 6 15:56:24 EDT 2001
  
  Trend
  I saw your postings.
  Here is my personal opinion on this.
  One of our ancient vedam is music based Samavedham. And our ancient Sages have given equal importance of attaining or realizing God thro sound so they talk about Nada Brahman. God in the Form of Sound. To Realize God thro NadoUpasana this is what Saint Thyagaraja or other masteros did unlike their western counterparts like Mozart these people where also mystics or believed to be so and the bhakti movement also added to this further as in North Tulsidas and others so in south .
  To compose music on God really varies from each composer we dont have to be 'God Realized' to compose.
  But to me personally speaking I try go into that mood since the song should also evoke the same Bhava(emotion) to listener.
  One song that I composed is 'Hey Govinda'
  I composed this song sponatenously (i didnt think of chord progression or rthym they all came later)
  if you are interested you can listen to it at
  http://www.mp3.com/premadona and be a judge of it.
  
  Ganesh
  
  
• From: UV (@ 134.113.203.137) on: Thu Sep 6 16:05:36 EDT 2001
  
  There are other romantic songs written in carnatic but finally they all take God as their lover ;)
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.231) on: Thu Sep 6 16:12:29 EDT 2001
  
  UV,
  
  I have listened to your composition before and I liked it.I will listen to it once again later(can't listen now) and try to identify what makes up a divine song.
  
  "I composed this song sponatenously (i didnt think of chord progression or rthym they all came later)"
  That must have been quite a experience!
  
  Thanks for your view.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Thu Sep 6 16:12:51 EDT 2001
  
  hi,
  
  good song! good bass voice!
  
  the beats in the bg is that a "commercial software loop" or did u compose it urself
  
  
• From: A.R. Rahman (@ 63.253.226.1) on: Thu Sep 6 16:15:02 EDT 2001
  
  Chant the name 'Sriram Lakshman' a couple of times concentrating on your Ajna Chakra and lo!...out comes the tune. This has been my inspiration each time I sat down to compose.
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Thu Sep 6 16:17:51 EDT 2001
  
  kiru,
  /*
  this is why I argued with KS that it is the culture that is producing good music not religion
  */
  I believe religion is part of ones’ culture. (I realise, they cld be created by man but still, they are part of ones’ culture). If u believe otherwise I will not make sense to u.
  
  Here “religious” means any “devotional/spiritual/religious” inclinations/feelings. Culture could have produced good music, I don’t think I have ever denied that..did I? All I said was that to come up with good music that sounds more “Indian” and to become great, one needs to have devotional/spiritual/religious inclinations. Such feelings make one care enough for their culture. They help safeguard its interests. Such feelings do not let one yield voluntarily to a “culture change”.
  
  These feelings make the composers “care enough” for their culture, resulting in them sounding more “Indian”. I also notice that most of our greats in TFM/IFM are like that. I have taken names of such people. If anyone feels otherwise, then do give names. I’ll try to understand that.
  
  There will be some composers who will sound “Indian” once in a while. I am not denying that. But they can’t help TFM/IFM in sounding more “Indian”.
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Thu Sep 6 16:20:20 EDT 2001
  
  Eden,
  I agree with u regarding WCM. Which is again why I like IR. The choice he made (that of using/Indianising WCM) was something that would cause no grave danger to our music/culture. It would not have any significant ill effects on our ethics or way-of-life.
  
  

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