Why IR couldn't cater to the Hindi audience like AR?

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Why IR couldn't cater to the Hindi audience like AR? Why IR couldn't cater to the Hindi audience like AR?

Topic started by Rex (@ wei-408-37.circa.ufl.edu) on Tue Sep 9 11:16:12 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

Responses:

From: RAVI KRISHNA (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Tue Sep 9 12:15:27 EDT 1997

because he is not as smart as ARR. :-)
From: IR-fan (@ hexlabpc.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Tue Sep 9 14:02:50 EDT 1997

because hindi audience are not as smart as tamil
audience :-)
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Tue Sep 9 17:30:23 EDT 1997

sabAsh. sariyAna pOtti.
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Tue Sep 9 20:46:39 EDT 1997

Aravind gave some reason in another thread.
BTW what happened to him? He seems to be missing
from the forum for a week!
From: Neekesh (@ blondie.cfu-cybernet.net) on: Tue Sep 9 22:31:37 EDT 1997

What the heck are you guys saying?
I cannot believe that TFM did not remove this racist remark about Hindi audiences.
How do you like it when others say stuff like that about you?
I probably will never visit TFM again, unless I get an apology.
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Wed Sep 10 00:27:13 EDT 1997

Sathiya Keerthi

vanthuvittEn ayyaa!!

I was in a course for 2 days. That coupled with the weekend made it a long four day gap. Many threads are so long by now, that I did not have anything to say. All over already!!!

Coming to this thread. I do not have the statistics of IR's movies in Hindi. But his songs reproduced by Anand-Milind have been big hits. So I will not accept that IR would have been a flop.

I have to accept with Ravikrishna that IR was not as smart as ARR to see to that that all his movies are released (dubbed) into Hindi. I am sure he was not interested in it.

I think IR lacked interest and initiative in promoting himself in the North. That is all.
From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Wed Sep 10 05:27:41 EDT 1997

Neekesh - why are you being so sensitive? Didn't you notice IR-fan's :-) after his statement? Come on man, lighten up - there has been no racists remarks made in this forum.

If you are looking for a fight, this is definitely not the place for it, as all discussions are held in a mature manner.

Nobody needs to apologise - least of all IR-fan - as there was no malice in the first place.

If you can accept that, we can carry on with our discussion. If not .......................
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Wed Sep 10 07:33:13 EDT 1997

Because IR's style distinctly South Indian when it comes to rustic songs and he never tried to change it for the Hindi audience. Also Hindi audiences prefer the interlude music to be consistent with the basic tune of the song.

Also IR has a very poor PR record.
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Wed Sep 10 12:24:30 EDT 1997

I don't agree that IR did not change his rustic
songs for Hindi audience. Lemme give you an example. The song "andha nilla" from Muduyal MariadHe" was used in Hindi film Mahadev ( one of the rare original hindi films of IR) as
"mujhe bahon mein bar le". The song did not have
any TN rural touch unlike the original tamil version. I liked that song very much but the
Hindi audience just rejected that song.
BTW that film has couple of nice songs of IR which
did not have any TN touch so to speak.

I think it is Hindi film's loss to not accept
IR when they were swallowing trash after trash
of hindi film songs of 80's.
From: Sunil (@ relay.alf-x.dec.com) on: Wed Sep 10 17:19:27 EDT 1997

If you notice most of IR tunes have a definite symmetry. Most of them are based on classical ragas. He cud blend light music and the hardcore classical stuff.

In the Hindi Music field what I have noted is the songs are simple - no complications with heavy doses of swaras. In India when we talk of 7 swaras it appears as tho Hindi uses only 5 swaras ( Here in states, music is taught with 5 swaras if I am not wrong) The beautiful, sharp twists and turns which IR gave cud not be digested by the Hindi audience.
So they rejected IR. Only foot tapping catchy tunes survived. This legacy is followed by ARR.

No controversies please. This is **my** humble opinion
From: ravi krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Wed Sep 10 19:11:16 EDT 1997

Sunil:
how do you explain the popularity of Raja's songs
in hindi when it was shamelessly copied by Anand Millind.
From: Sunil (@ relay.alf-x.dec.com) on: Wed Sep 10 21:25:10 EDT 1997

tis beyond doubt that Anand Milind copied tunes from IR. But Anand Milind duo were brilliant enough to modify those tunes to suit the hindi audience. Take the eg of dhak dhak .. from beta.
The tune is ditto. But the way in which he
hindi-ised the song (with instruments etc etc) was so spectacular that the song was a instant hit.
Same is the case of songs like

ek do teen (tezaab) - anne anne (kozhi kkovuthu)
tu tu tura (bol radha bol) - rakkama (dalapathi)

The background music of above two hindi songs appeals more to the northern audience.

These are **my** observations.
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Thu Sep 11 02:44:31 EDT 1997

Probably because IR's music did not have 'Jhankar Beats'!!!
From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Thu Sep 11 05:19:21 EDT 1997

My conclusions are as follows:

1. IR was never interested in acquiring fame or recognition. Every statement he has said support this. I'm sure if he was offered the chance, he would have taken it on.

2. He was not offered by Hindi producers, simply because his music did not appeal to them. I cannot accept the argument about 7 swarams and the like. Common people do not go into great details. Either they find the music catchy and good or not.

3. Anand Millind and the likes of him may copy a few of IR's tunes and Hindi-ise it and these songs may become popular. But that doesn't mean IR could have been greatly successful in Hindi movies. Let me give you an example. Deva's Agila Agila is already (or set to be) a great hit. But if the original Bob Marley (God rest his soul) had scored for Tamil movies, he may not have been successful!

4. IR not venturing North is no loss to him, as his talents was very well capitalised in the South. Even they have recognised his genius. Hindi movies alone is not the benchmark for success. (Neekesh - this is not a racist remark - it depends how you view things).

5. One can excel ithout crossing boundaries. This is evidenced by Sivaji. Kamalhassan hasn't broken into Hindi movie world (although unlike IR he has really tried). But his failure to do so, doesn't make him any less a great actor than he is. Granted Lakshmikant Pyarelal and some other Hindi MD's were very good in the 70s. But why didn't they break into the South, to prove their capabilities? My reasoning is that one doesn't have to cover all the regions of India to prove that one is really good. If I am not mistaken, the world acclaimed Bengali director (His name has slipped my mind) has not directed a single non-Bengali movie yet he is internationally known!

6. Coming to ARR, his music is more international than Indian. Even his Indian tunes are exotic-sounding. He has given TFM a fresh outlook. It could very well be that the same fresh outlook attracted the Hindi movie makers.

With the above words, I rest my case. Thank you.
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Thu Sep 11 11:43:32 EDT 1997

Yes, I certainly agree to some of NOV's points. An artist need not prove to all portions in the country to reign supreme. Carnatic music is the base for most of IR's creations. Obviously, it will not appeal to the Hindi masses because their musical style is different. India is famous for its cultural heritage and for that the credits go to our arts, sculpture and music. When people around the world are making themselves unique by speaking their language and establishing their music, on the other hand our youth are turning to Western music and I am sorry to say that we are slowly losing our identity in the International arena. I would say that ARR is a clever guy who understood the trend and earned fame by simply importing Western Music tunes unlike IR who did not compromise our Indian music for anything. I would say that his music can be saved for posterity to show the future generations on how great our Music was! I am not against Western Music, but I am against Westernization of India.
From: Sathiyamurthy (@ 152.148.41.167) on: Thu Sep 11 13:22:06 EDT 1997

One advantage ARR had over IR was that he got introduced to the Hindi market thru' a commercially successful movie like Rojaa.
cp:
what makes u think that our youth are turning to Western music? Atleast in the 90's we have the younger generation (my god I sound so old) turning towards classical music. People like UK, Bombay Jayashree are commanding a lot of respect. Anyway, I don't find anything wrong with Indians listening to Western music. It's all a matter of taste
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Thu Sep 11 16:19:03 EDT 1997

I would like to deviate from the topic for the sake of Sathiyarmurthy's question. And this discussion is with SM alone and people who are not interested in this thread can ignore.

Sathiyamurthy:
My point was that Western Music should not be the base for our film music. We have OUR MUSIC(CARNATIC & HINDUSTANI) which has its very strong roots and is more enchanting than the much mundane Western Music. Unnikrishnan and Bombay Jayashree became popular because they sang for the film industry. How many carnatic musicians are recognized worldwide? Why is that Michael Jackson and Bon Jovi could attract such big crowds in India? And do you think anyone in US or the West will know(leave alone Indians) Dr.BalamuraliKrishna or the great Flute Mali ? Film music reaches the masses and it is the best way to make people aware of Indian music. So, IMO, our MDs should not drift towards Western Music to acheive International acclaim. They should strive to make INDIAN MUSIC popular worldwide. When people like Yanni(a greek composer, considered a new age composer , who also come to India to prove his musical genius) can make others approve of his music worldwide why can't our musicians establish INDIAN MUSIC world over which is ancient, great & authentic. I think anyone who is interested in Indian culture and heritage will definitely agree to this. And I would like to end this discussion here.
From: Sathiyamurthy (@ 152.148.41.167) on: Thu Sep 11 17:38:16 EDT 1997

Sorry folks for digressing from the topic.
cp:
I'm still not sure if you blame the MDs or the audience for Tamil Film songs to be based on Western music. Bombay Jayashree did not become popular b'cos she sang in Iruvar - rather her popularity in Carnatic music got her the chance to sing in Iruvar. My point is why unnecessarily blame the younger generation. ARR likes to compose his songs based on WM and as long as it is nice to listen why not take that? If somebody else like IR comes up with good songs based on Carnatic music, take that too. In short, the criteria should be whether it is good or not and not whether it is based on Carnatic music or not. And of course, it is just my personal opinion. Since i don't want to post anymore of this under this thread pl. do send me a personal mail if u want to have a healthy argument in this regard.
From: Rex (@ wei-410-ft2.circa.ufl.edu) on: Thu Sep 11 18:14:15 EDT 1997

Coming back to the topic, I read somewhere, about 3 years ago, that a tussle broke out between IR and the Bollywood king Sippy(regarding financial matters). This made Sippy to virtually ban IR's entry into Bombay filmworld.
Can anyone throw some more light on this?
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Thu Sep 11 19:46:15 EDT 1997

Rex:

IR worked with Raj Sippy in Mahadev (1989). Raj Sippy and NN Sippy are no big names in Bollywood.
What I read was that the hero of the movie Vinod
Khanna was not happy with the music of Mahadev
as he felt it has too much of tamil touch.

The feeling that IR tunes has tamil touch is shared by many big names in bollywood.Anil Kapoor
is a great fan of IR and he listens to his tamil
songs also but he feels that IR songs can't be
directly imported to hindi films.
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Fri Sep 12 10:07:09 EDT 1997

Ravi Krishna:

Pl. scroll back a few pages and see what you posted in regards to tamil or rustic touch. In your opinion Mahadev may not have any tamil or rustic touch but to people who wield a considerable influence on Hindi Filmdom it has. What you have said in your last posting validates my opinion.
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Fri Sep 12 10:28:08 EDT 1997

Couldn't resist to put in my 2 cents in the CP & SM discussion. When I was in India last year I could clearly see inspite of ARR wave, carnatic music has been enjoying a good following among the younger generation. Fresh faces like UK, BJ, Vijay Siva, Sanjay Subramaniam, NityaShri, Sowmya and others are really popular. I couldn't get into one of the concerts of Sanjay S at the Music academy and could clearly see the majority of the people there belong to 20 - 30
age group.

I don't agree with the comparison of MJ and BMK. It is all a question of media exposure. Take any village in TN and most of the people in that village know/heard something about Madras but how many people in Madras know about that village. It is as simple as that.
From: INDIAN (@ 1cust80.max8.cleveland.oh.ms.uu.net) on: Sat Sep 13 11:08:53 EDT 1997

I must admit that the original inciting statement by the "IR fan" lacked racial sensitivity and that it should be deleted from these pages. It just goes on to show not how diverse we are but how different. (and we crib about racial insensitivity in the American society)
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Sun Sep 14 23:05:57 EDT 1997

Ravikrishna

Did you see Anil Kapoor's recent movie which is a remake of thEvar magan? There is a song which is a photostat copy of inji iduppazagaa. If he feels that IR's songs have a Tamil touch, then why did he import his songs into his movies?

He did it even in his Beta. 'dhak dhak' was an atrocious copy.

I totally disagree that all IR's songs have a Tamil touch. There are many songs which do not have even the slightest resemblance to folk music.

There must have been an ego clash between some big name in Bollywood and IR. But I have not heard about anything till date. That is a possible reason why he was shunned by Bollywood.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Mon Sep 15 09:53:38 EDT 1997

Virasat (Thevar Magan in Hindi) also has another song which is a copy of Raakku muthu raakku from ejaman.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Mon Sep 15 09:57:48 EDT 1997

IR with his unruly crop on his shaved head, veshti-jibba, kunkumam on his forehead would never have fitted in glamororized-Bombay.
From: Ravi krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Mon Sep 15 14:53:11 EDT 1997

Arvind,

I never said that IR's tunes have tamil touch. However HF industry folks thought his tunes had
tamil touch. Flame them not me. I would have been only too happy if IR was sucessful in HFM too.
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Tue Sep 16 03:13:55 EDT 1997

Ravikrishna

I have blamed it on Anil Kapoor and not on you. I am just asking you how can he do that?

PG

Yes. Possible. And probably IR was not able to speak proper English. BTW, raakku muththu rakku was already copied in a Govinda-Karisma movie. The song was 'uyyammaa uyyammaa kya karthaa hain'. The movie is Rajababu a remake of the hopeless 'raasukkutti'.

So this raakku no. 2 !!
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Tue Sep 16 10:13:44 EDT 1997

If veLLaikkara musicians from Royal Philharmonic and Frenchman Paul Mauriat can understand IR, why can't these Hindi film makers ?

Anyway why should IR be successful in HFM ? What does HFM give that TFM does not ? More money.
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Tue Sep 16 17:00:19 EDT 1997

PG

HFM gives national popularity which TFM can never
give. That's the reason why ARR is a household
name in India whereas the same can't be said
about IR.
From: Nithin Sreedevan (@ 147.126.90.46) on: Fri Oct 3 18:23:31 EDT 1997

OK, guys: As a professional and a creative artiste, a person has several constraints. Primarily, the environment. You take away the usual environment, productivity of a creative artiste suffers dramatically. A good example is: PG Wodehouse when he was on a contract with one of the American studios. When he had to leave England for New York, he was excited. However, he could not adjust to his new lifestyle and environemnt. In the process, the studio lost money on PGW, who could come up with nothing in the 2 years of his stay.

Raja must have had the same problem. For the movie Sadma he had to import all his musicians to Bombay. He produced wonderful songs in the hindustani idiom or hindi film music or even more classy. But, it was believed that he could not always transfer his environment (musicians) to Bombay for each of his recordings. Also, the ease of entry is difficult as in any business. Remember what Jesudas suffered in his heyday. The politics of jealousy comes in and before you realise you have burnt hafl your energies tackling selfish and greedy idiots, union members and so on.

Raja is a cat, who knows what is what and when and where. His heart always lay in South, particulary with his Tamil people and he was most productive at Prasad studios. Plus, his idiom is pure folk and carnatic. So, why should he dilute himself with the 5 swaras (as someone correctly pointed out) of hindustanic music?

So, I guess that somewhat explains Raja.
From: madhan (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Sun Oct 26 09:32:05 EST 1997

I can quote many reasons for IR's abstininence from HFM.

1. He was not the gossip - glamour -glitz monger which is what most of the HFM directors are (no offence intended).

2. his creative output would have got suppressed because, apart from a few handful of directors like Govind Nihalini, Gulzar, etc, there are not many classy directors in the north.

3. His appearance - dark complexioned and ungainly - know what, evn Mani Ratnam uses Arvind Swamy for Bombay and Priyanka becuase his skin is fair and will be more readily accepted by an audience .So IR would have never had a good public PHYSICAL image like ARR has , with his accented English in Channel(V) etc.

Madhan,GOa.
From: T.R.Sankar (@ 199.86.135.113) on: Thu Nov 13 07:50:14 EST 1997

I have a question.If Raja is credited with driving away "Hindi"Paadalgal from Tamil nadu why Rehman does not get the credit of "Musically conquering "the North?
During Raja's days he had the advantage of "No Hindi films in Tamil nadu"a ruling brought by MGR in 1978.
I think many people convenently forget this good platform Raja got.There were times when "Yadon Ki bharat"and "Naalai Namathey"co existed comfortably.
This MGR ruling was reversed fully in 1988 .then you will understand "QSQT"and "Tezab"had a good run.Infact the songs also were hits.

Raja also had the advantage of confused RD Burman (he was swept by Angry young man wave),medicore LP and ageing Kalyanji & anadji..But he could not cash in on that.With no SDB,Naushad,SJ and Ravi (who now composes for Malayalam movies) it should have been a cake walk .But !!

We always have this habit of denouncing people who acheive popularity by sheer hardwork . People who simply cant stand AR's fame get the sadistic pleasure of mudslinging Hindi audience,Hindi MD's .Producers etc.

ARR is the first Indian music director to cut across regional barriers which even great MDs such as SD Burman,Naushad,MSV and Ilayaraja could not do .
Ofcourse the changed "Open"scene has made this possible along with ARR's effort and the new technologies.(thanks to Man mohan/R.Murdoch/PVN)
Except Raja (who even now composes) others had the biggest handicap of lack of technology and presence of AIR and DD ( Yes ! presence!) alone.

some comments like Raja's looks and his veshti jippa sound pathetic.Rehman is no Tom Cruise to attract people with looks. His music speaks for him.
Raja was wearing a pant & shirt upto "Thai mugambikai"film. Even MSV was wearing a pant and shirt in "SarvarSundaram".Raja even announced after "Janani Janani"that he will sing ONLY Bakthi padalgal thereafetr.

I may sound a bit philosphical but this one is true as far as TF music is considered.
MSV & Ramamoorthy Ruled the scene from 1958 Pudhyal to Avan than manithan in 1975 (MSV minus TKR)
GRamanthan ruled in 40's upto 1958.
Raja like them has had his stint of 15 to 17 years.
Kadavul Kodutha neram avvalavuthan.

Raja's fans have started resembling UK cricket correspondents.If England cant win just write Waqar tampers ,Murali chucks etc. and then write a detailed column on "How we conquered the world" by D.Jardine.
(Past glories)and "Devon (Malcom) picks up reverse swing".(about non entities) This happens when someone you despearately back cant deliver the goods.

I think Raja's fans need to do some soul searching .

T.R.Sankar
From: T.R.Sankar (@ 199.86.135.113) on: Thu Nov 13 07:56:01 EST 1997

I have a question.If Raja is credited with driving away "Hindi"Paadalgal from Tamil nadu why Rehman does not get the credit of "Musically conquering "the North?
During Raja's days he had the advantage of "No Hindi films in Tamil nadu"a ruling brought by MGR in 1978.
I think many people convenently forget this good platform Raja got.There were times when "Yadon Ki bharat"and "Naalai Namathey"co existed comfortably.
This MGR ruling was reversed fully in 1988 .then you will understand "QSQT"and "Tezab"had a good run.Infact the songs also were hits.

Raja also had the advantage of confused RD Burman (he was swept by Angry young man wave),medicore LP and ageing Kalyanji & anadji..But he could not cash in on that.With no SDB,Naushad,SJ and Ravi (who now composes for Malayalam movies) it should have been a cake walk .But !!

We always have this habit of denouncing people who acheive popularity by sheer hardwork . People who simply cant stand AR's fame get the sadistic pleasure of mudslinging Hindi audience,Hindi MD's .Producersand above all Hindustani music.Just to say that IR is good people stoop to abysmal levels of sycophancy.

ARR is the first Indian music director to cut across regional barriers which even great MDs such as SD Burman,Naushad,MSV and Ilayaraja could not do .
Ofcourse the changed "Open"scene has made this possible along with ARR's effort and the new technologies.(thanks to Man mohan/R.Murdoch/PVN)
Except Raja (who even now composes) others had the biggest handicap of lack of technology and presence of AIR and DD ( Yes ! presence!) alone.

some comments like Raja's looks and his veshti jippa sound pathetic.Rehman is no Tom Cruise to attract people with looks. His music speaks for him.
Raja was wearing a pant & shirt upto "Thai mugambikai"film. Even MSV was wearing a pant and shirt in "SarvarSundaram".Raja even announced after "Janani Janani"that he will sing ONLY Bakthi padalgal thereafetr.(Does this remind you of the proverb "AAdath theriyatha Mangamma Medai Konal enralam")

I may sound a bit philosphical but this one is true as far as TF music is considered.
MSV & Ramamoorthy Ruled the scene from 1958 Pudhyal to Avan than manithan in 1975 (MSV minus TKR)
GRamanthan ruled in 40's upto 1958.
Raja like them has had his stint of 15 to 17 years.
Kadavul Kodutha neram avvalavuthan.

Raja's fans have started resembling UK cricket correspondents.If England cant win just write Waqar tampers ,Murali chucks etc. and then write a detailed column on "How we conquered the world" by D.Jardine.
(Past glories)and "Devon (Malcom) picks up reverse swing".(about non entities) This happens when someone you despearately back cant deliver the goods.

I think Raja's fans need to do some soul searching .

T.R.Sankar
From: pugazhendhi (@ ww-th03.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu Mar 26 17:53:22 EST 1998

Hindi Cine field is dominated by Dadas, So Ilayaraja did not want to get into trouble by not not scoring for the idiotic Hindi audiences. I do not know what AR is scoring so great that these people are so craze about him. I know he is copying from Yanni, KennyG etc. so what is so great about AR and apart from that he dosen't know what is re-recording so he cannot be considered as a music director
From: Die hard fans of ARR (@ ) on: Sat Aug 19 00:22:20 EDT 2000

pugazhendi person like you have no right to talk bad about the great composer AR rahman.Better mind it.We do not wish to print bad words.So next time read before you print views.

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