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Is IR's quality now indeed less than his yesteryears?

Topic started by SR Kaushik (@ ntws229.cs.wisc.edu) on Tue Oct 13 22:30:43 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Many people opine that the IR of the 80s was best and that his standard now is a little lesser. I do not agree. While I do feel that his quality in the early 90s was a bit down, after the advent of ARR, he is back to his old form, although his style has changed. IMO, (all songs of) Guru, (some songs of) Kaliyoonjalu, Yatra mozhi, Avatharam, Nammoora Mandaara Hoove are as good as his best.

I can cite a few reasons why so many people feel IR now is not as good as IR of the 80s:

1. Nostalgia.
2. An explanation for his relative lack of commercial success now.
3. We have all listened to so much music that we are used to it, and hence the charm that music once used to have is reduced. Or rather, let me put it this way - one's musical appreciation becomes more intellectual than emotional.

I think this would be an interesting topic to discuss.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: MSK (@ marimuth-nt.qualcomm.com) on: Wed Oct 14 20:05:28 EDT 1998
  
  Anand,
  
  Thanks for describing the situation of the Aruna Girana song in Guru. I have'nt seen the movie but have listened the song so many times, that after
  reading u'r post makes me go back and listen again.. The situation u described is amazing ..
  
  Wish i could rent the movie and record the BGM
  
  Thanks again
  
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-117.il.us.ibm.net) on: Wed Oct 14 23:41:31 EDT 1998
  
  This is what I felt when I heard the songs.
  
  1. Guru charanam pallavi starts in Durga (in C Major scale )later takes a scale change to Am in the 1st bgm. Raga changes to Chakaravagam/Akirh Bhairavi in Sarnanam...A wonderfull mix of western classical and Classical music.
  
  Durga: There are many Old songs in Durga. Brindavan nandakumaraanum - I think from Maya Bazzar.
  
  2. Deva Sangeetham : Starts with good french horn scores but I feel K.J.Y voice reduces the weight of the score, more kambeeram is required for such a kind of wide orchestra. (Reminds of Oopapa lali from Geethanjali - I was able to predict some scores in this - similar scoring can be found in that song.)
  
  3. Minnaram - great Hamsanatham - the Picolo run piece in the first bgm. we have heard this pattern or note formation in many many IR songs. Adi Athadee, Thunga vizal 2, Poovama urgolam.
  
  4. thataram Placement of strings is amazing.
  Best of all -- the 2nd half - (after allaellam) most of it is in my favorite raga - Thilang.
  (Though reminds me of Mahanadhi boat song)
  
  My Best vote goes to Aruna Kirana Deepam - Chanceless.
  In fact we can count the number of instruments Oboe, harp , french horn, clairnet, picolo/flute, violin/cello section, percussion - a drum machine/timpini - thats it!...
  KALAKITAR RAJA, Simply superb. KJY in between alapana in the saaram it comes and goes very quickly - Kudos to KJY. - Silirka vaikurathu.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.24.118) on: Thu Oct 15 00:19:53 EDT 1998
  
  srikanth,
  thanx for posting u'r comments on guru finally.
  i was just curious to know u'r opinion about the album. that's all.
  
  i agree that aruna girana is 'mei silirthufying' composition. hope for more nos like in TFM.
  
  
• From: Anand (@ 129.107.27.47) on: Thu Oct 15 20:48:15 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Karthik!
  
  I read your views on why people tend to feel that IR's quality is less these days.You have described that phenomenon very aptly.
  
  Good to see that you too have the same view as mine.
  
  I think nothing is more alluring for people than commercial success and media savvy.
  
  Anyways,your views speak the truth.
  
  
  ---- Anand.
  
  
• From: N.C.Ramakrishna (@ spider-ta053.proxy.aol.com) on: Fri Oct 16 00:15:43 EDT 1998
  
  IMO I think not the quality in IR's music reduced, it is only the quantity reduced. He is diverting to other languages I guess who are giving respect to his music. GURU is the example that quality will never end in IR music. It depends on the director to get best of him.
  
  I think only IR and God knows why he is going away from TFM.
  
  I remember an incident here. Great Carnatic Singer from Andhra, Balamuralikrishna was once Asthana singer (official post) of Andhra. He did not have good terms with NTR. Later NTR canceled the position in which Balamuralikrishna use to be. Whether this is the reason or not I dont know but he made a vow not to sing on stage any more in Andhra. He did that for some time and used to sing in other states.
  
  When he did that it was not his loss or of NTR. Only the Telugu listeners were at loss.
  
  I guess something might have offended IR similar way. If so I feel it is unfortunate and it is loss of TFM lovers. But music doesnt have any barrier. Though I dont follow Malayalam much, I enjoy listening GURU songs. As long as IR delivers may be any language I guess it is OK.
  
  
• From: oor_vamban (@ horus.erlm.siemens.de) on: Fri Oct 16 01:45:47 EDT 1998
  
  Hello Ravi, Rajaraman,
  
  Please restrict to Tamil Film Music only! apdeennu, chummaa, formality-kku oru mail pOttuttu kazhaNdukkunga... illaatti IR fans-kku neenga romba chellam kudukkareengaa-nnu pazhi vandhudum!
  
  
• From: Amblin (@ palo4.pacific.net.sg) on: Mon Oct 19 07:55:28 EDT 1998
  
  Lets be clear about music.
  
  KM's songs are good but did u guys listen to the filmscore(underscore/background
  music/incidental music)?
  Throughout the whole film, did u guys notice how bloody good the filmscore was?? Well, it
  was really brilliant & beautiful. Now, apart from being a maestro for song tunes, IR is also the
  champion in creating powerful/emotional/riveting/gripping music underscore. Till now, no one
  even comes close to him in indian music world.
  
  I did read somewhere that when IR toured england he visited Abbey Road studios where the
  hollywood music maestros Jerry Goldsmith & John Williams frequently record their scores. It
  seems that IR (like myself) is a big fan of their music as well & has very high regards for these
  two kingpins. But in my listening experience of all their music, IR has never plagarized or let
  them influence into his own composing styles.
  
  Now, see the English movie 'THE OMEN'(music by J Goldsmith) & then see ARR's
  'ROJA'. Again see the recent english film 'THE GHOST & THE DARKNESS'(music by J
  Goldsmith) & then listen to the songs in ARR's 'JEANS'.
  Get the drift??
  
  Now that is ILAYARAJA!!!!....way to go SIR!!!!!
  
  
  **************************************************
  Tear me a page from the Bible & i'll give u a movie -
  Cecil B Demille
  **************************************************
  
  
• From: Ravi (@ envy.cs.umass.edu) on: Mon Oct 19 10:16:46 EDT 1998
  
  Amblin:
  
  
  
  1. There is a permanent thread for BGM discussion. Post comments on BGM there.
     
  2. Don't drag ARR into the picture unnecessarily.
     
  3. Don't post the same thing in every thread you see in the forum.
     
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova2.cs.wisc.edu) on: Mon Oct 19 14:17:45 EDT 1998
  
  Yes, please don't mud-sling ARR here; limit yourself to talking about how the advent of ARR has affected IR.
  
  
• From: Raja should be left alon (@ portal.ameritech.com) on: Mon Oct 19 18:41:42 EDT 1998
  
  I think IR is now adapting to the new musical regime without much interest in leading the pack anymore. He is continuing to bring unbelievable compositions but his rhythms and orchestration (while packed liked a bolt from the skies) is definitely showing some spiraling downward. Raja is not keen on being different in each of his songs. His tunes are just different but the rhythms and innovativeness are not there anymore. His rhythms are just as per demanded by the producers and the new generation of movie goers. What a wasted lot!
  
  I think he is totally uninspired by the new directors, the new cultural themes, lack of sentiments, lack of the buddy system and the thrust of just outlandish amorphous musical styles by the new whiz kids and pop-musical hip swinging western culture imitating music directors wanna bes. It is a bad crowd and I can see why Raja is just bored. He is seeking out of the world projects. I wish we had well-wishers who could work out ingenious movies for Raja.
  
  Please don't expect too much from this genius, we are being very anxious for Raja and in the process we are pulling down a lot of other aspiring composers, who are not at all worthy of that title is a different matter (;
  
  
  
• From: balaji (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Mon Oct 19 19:07:38 EDT 1998
  
  "the new cultural
  themes"
  
  do we have new cultural themes thesedays??? most of the films are on how people fall in love(without seeing, through letters...)!!!!(just kidding)
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02990.mayo.edu) on: Tue Oct 20 16:20:17 EDT 1998
  
  Hi everybody
  
  I finally managed to watch Guru on Video recently. Frankly IMO it was a mediocre movie. I watched it with a person whose mothertongue is malayalam and he too wondered about the reason why this movie was hyped up by everybody. I am just talking about the movie only--not the music.
  
  For those who have not seen the movie, it looks like a SNDP propaganda film. SNDP--Sri Narayana Guru Dharma Padam--a cult popular in Kerala who practice religious tolerance and non violence/universal brotherhood etc.. Even the name Guru for this movie probably reflects Sri Narayana Guru. They just show a pair of feet and mostly the Paduka as a representation.
  
  Regarding music and cinematography--because of a lousy print I was unable to evaluate accurately. Some of the visuals were definitely appealing especially during the songs. I thought BGM per se was very minimal--very unlike Raja. The songs made more sense now that I have watched the movie.
  
  I thought the songs 'Devasangeetham' and 'Guru Charanam' could have been picturised better. I had somehow visualised 'Minnaram' in my mind to somehow resemble Chinna Chinna aasai picturisation and I was pretty close; decent work.
  'Thatharam' is picturised differently but given that this was the pre-narabali song in retrospect the song is slightly 'lighter' than it should have. I would have liked more 'heavy' duty stuff like the more 'war like interludes' of Devasangeetham. Finally about 'Arunakirana'--best of the lot. Well picturised. Only comment about this song is I would have liked Mohanlal the lead character to have sung this but it is in the movie it is in the background.
  
  BTW did anybody listen to 'Fresh Air' yesterday on NPR. They featured guest was the great Ray Charles. I was amazed at what he said during the interview because it kind of supported my beliefs which I have said earlier in this forum.
  
  Ray Charles considered the pioneers of 'Soul music' and a fantastic blues singer known for his ability to come up with innovative arrangements was asked about his methodology. He said and I quote--" you know I just play with the piano and try to sing and listen to my compositions; if it doesn't feel right I keep improvizing till I feel it in my heart; you know there has been many times I have heard perfect songs; perfect in terms of musical correctness and orchestration but some of them lack the right feel or in other words they lack a soul. That's why I always try to hear my own compositions over and over again till I can really feel it in my heart".
  
  Granted different composers use different techniques for composing but I feel one cannot emphasize the need to play around with the notes and improvise till one really gets the right feel about it. Unfortunately not everybody does this in TFM.
  
  Does anybody know the composing techniques of Salil Chowdry, SD/RD Burman, Ravindra Jain? I know MSV and offlate ARR usually adopt the above mentioned style. I guess Raja used to do this in his initial few years. Any body have any thoughts?
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02990.mayo.edu) on: Tue Oct 20 16:41:55 EDT 1998
  
  Hi again
  
  For those interested in listening to the program I mentioned please go to www.npr.org and then to programs then fresh air with Terry gross then choose Oct 19th 1998.
  
  For those of you who do not have audio capabilities I am providing information on the interview and how to get the transcripts.
  
  
  Fresh Air listing for 10/19/1998
  
  *****************************************************
  1-888-NPR NEWS for TAPES and TRANSCRIPTS of Fresh Air
  *****************************************************
  (ALL TIMES ET)
  HOST: TERRY GROSS
  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
  RUNDOWN FOR MONDAY, 19 OCTOBER 1998
  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
  12:00 BILLBOARD #1 (:59)
  12:01 NEWS FROM NPR (4:59)
  12:06:00 **INTERVIEW ONE SEGMENT**
  Singer and pianist RAY CHARLES has a new four CD box-set out
  that captures his contribution to country music. "Ray
  Charles: The Complete Country and Western Recordings 1959-
  1986. (Rhino) Charles may be best known for his blues, R&B
  and soul music. He has won 12 Grammy Awards. (THIS INTERVIEW
  CONTINUES INTO THE SECOND HALF OF THE SHOW.)
  **[Floating 1:00 Terry Gross pitch between 12:19 and 12:22]**
  Interview with RAY CHARLES cont'd.
  12:28:30 FORWARD PROMO (:29)
  12:29:00 I.D. BREAK (:59)
  12:30:00 **INTERVIEW SEGMENT**
  Interview with RAY CHARLES cont'd.
  **[floating 1:00 I.D. between 12:35 and 12:45]**
  Interview with RAY CHARLES cont'd.
  **[Floating 1:00 Terry pitch between 12:49 and 12:52]**
  Interview with RAY CHARLES cont'd.
  12:58:30 NEXT SHOW PROMO (:29)
  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
  PROMO COPY
  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
  On the next Fresh Air. .we'll talk with RAY CHARLES about his
  life and career. This month a box set will be released that
  captures his contribution to country music. that and more,
  coming up on the next Fresh Air.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Return to the Fresh Air schedules.
  Return to the Fresh Air home page.
  
  
  

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