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WHY IR CAN NOT BE THE BEST OF TFM?

Topic started by karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on Sun Jan 31 04:05:48 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have found since I came into this forum that there are many IR lovers who, just would not pay heed to listen to great works of Viswanathan Ramamoorthy or the like who had done wonders to the Tamil Film Music, but only go about claiming him to be the best.

Similarly, the ones who do not treat IR as the best have not found an opportunity to compare his works or so called creations with the great works of other musicians.

I would like the arguments to confine only to the Tamil Film songs in their completeness, and please, don't bring in the Re-recording or the Back Ground Music of a film, or separate albums from the MDs if any. After all, when we hear songs we don't always think of the movies they came from!

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Responses:

• From: karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on: Sun Jan 31 04:14:14 EST 1999
  
  To in keep with the tradition I do the first posting...
  
  My first contention is that IR's interludes are not in sync with the main tune of the song. They are almost always a chunk of instruments which appear to be thrust into the song. While the interludes are great, they lose their very purpose of decorating and supporting the song. Instead, they have only created a sense of impatience in me. As I said exceptions are always there but the general trend is this. This you can really feel only if you get to listen to great works Viswanathan Ramamoorthy Or G Ramanathan, Or Sudharsanam, Or K V Mahadevan or the many more who have succeeded in the past.
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Sun Jan 31 04:53:02 EST 1999
  
  karthi,
  
  There r two types of Music listeners.One group listens to the music just for the melody and nothing else and other group likes the ornamentation given to the song by the MD.
  
  First I don't understand how Raja's interludes are not in sync with the main tune. u mean to say the instruments should play variations of the same tune?? If so, then the 2'nd category of people will not be satisfied. Again, i don't get ur point on Raja's interludes not decorating the song. In fact, the specialty of raja is to bring various emotions in diff parts of the songs , by his wonderful interludes.Of course the interludes support the tune.
  
  I can give 1000s of examples of Raja's compositions which satisfy group 1 and group 2.
  
  I have listened to enough no of songs by MSV-TKR & KVM , to say that they can't satisfy group 2 (which I belong to).
  
  
  Agreed they have given great tunes .what about the interludes?? u can always see repetition of interludes and that too they r too short. This is the general trend though exceptions r always there.
  
  IMO, a song is complete only if it satisfies both the groups ie., it shud have a good tune and the ornamentation given by the interludes should be good.
  
  If u say an MD is a contender for the "Best in TFM" award , u should obviously consider what his contributions are for the success of the Movie and the album. (There have been numorous instances where raja is the sole factor for the success of a movie. Kovai thambi went one step ahead.He changed the director for "iLamai kAlangaL" bcos he could not pen a story for the 9 songs composed by Raja!!!!)
  
  But , U have tactfully avoided the primary role of a MD (BGM) and other attributes which the other MDs u have mentioed are poor at!!!
  
  How can u call an MD no1 with just a set of small set of metrics carefully chosen so that there is some comparison.
  since all the above MDs r good in their own way, the evaluation becomes subjective.
  What sounds annoying to u is the best of Raja to me.i mean the interludes.
  
  U can't compare the styles of the MDs, for u identify an MD with his style.
  
  Take into consideration all the other attributes, which will unequivocally state that Raja is the Best TFM has had so far.
  
  PS:I'm writing this even after ur mentioning NOT to take the other factors into consideration ,bcos the topic simply doesn't make sense if, only ur metrics r considered.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Sun Jan 31 09:11:20 EST 1999
  
  Well said, Shankar, I have little to add to your well-rested case. But this argument is actually continuing from an early thread where Karthi had put in the same supposition, namely, IR's interludes dont go with the song. And the example he chose for this supposition was "Azhagiya Kannae..." ..!!!!
  
  I had responded to him in that thread sticking to "Azhagiya Kannae" and pointing out how the song was a classic by itself, and more importantly, how it suited the mood of the situation. I dont know how one can blame IR for trying to match the situation in his interludes!
  Ir's interludes are not merely instrumentation or tangential. They suit the mood of the situation and if the situation is such that the mood changes within the song , he takes care of that ,too. With due respect to the old masters, this is a concept that was brought into TFM only by IR.
  I strongly protest the claim that IR's interludes are tangential.
  
  Well, Karthi is of the school that considers a song as just a song..a stand-alone entity, not in relation to the movie or situation. Obviously, IR cant please them. It is neither their fault nor IR's.
  
  Karthi: Obviously, we are not going to agree on this:). But please dont think I am completely ignorant of MSV, TKR ,KVM, GR...
  I would like to discuss further on this with you...Sounds interesting...I'll try to come up with old songs which suffer from this same anomaly. You giveme other examples(other than Azhagiya Kannae) for IR's supposed faulty handling of interludes. Fair enough, ain't it?:).
  
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-158.il.us.ibm.net) on: Sun Jan 31 16:16:32 EST 1999
  
  
  MSV - best to set a tune to a song, his "brigas" are the toughest, even Raja has not done this, his simplicity with tune, trying out a tough raga for very simple song, eg: "Thambi nan padithen kanchiyela netru" set to mand, like wise he had tried out many things, ketu kodi urumi melam, best attempt to mix classical and western. Has someone heard "i will sing for you" in manitharul manikam - set to karaharapriya, a tough customer to light music, he handles with ease.
  Arrangments to a song, was totally alien to tamil film music, MSV was the first person to try it out, later ofcourse Raja being a WC musician gave more imporantance to it.
  Just good arrangements is not music (might be good for western classical arrangements), tune has to fit the arrangement score, many raja's score ignore this, his tunes are for the chords and arrangements. The tune suffers here and gets a step motherly treament, then the lyrics, people are forced to write non-sense.
  
  Take the lyrics, Nilavu oru pen aagi..nedhuukindra.... in ulagum sutrum valiban..
  tough words, If Raja composed for this lyric, he would force the lyric change
  Nila pene, nedum penne - make it more flat,
  which suits for WC scores, Though IR has vast scores of arragments, he is only after MSV, who with limited resources has experimented more than Raja.
  
  There was line written by vali sometime ago,
  
  Mellisai mannarin Isai alavo, melliya pongkatrin sugmam allavo...it is fact.
  
  
• From: Clarify (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Sun Jan 31 20:16:55 EST 1999
  
  I agree totally. IR is *not* the best of TFM. He is the best that India has ever produced
  
  
• From: Clarify (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Sun Jan 31 20:22:51 EST 1999
  
  Srikanth : So what if IR would have forced a change in lyrics? I am sure the song would have sounded better. Now, if the question was "Who is the MD that works best with limitations, then the answer would probably be MSV. But why should IR work under such shackles. His music flows, and lyrics are only secondary to the tune; IMO a good lyricist can convey exactly the same meaning with any tune --- But then if the tune itself is modified, it then becoms a different song
  
  
• From: karthi (@ lab7.theatrium.net) on: Sun Jan 31 22:07:12 EST 1999
  
  Shankar and Raj!
  
  I will sure come up with lot numbers of IR where the interludes do not add value to the songs. Since I grew up listening to IR's music and all the same listening to MSV (and other good oldies) also, I could sense this easily and was naturally inclined only to imbibe MSV's music. This has actually resulted in me actually not being impacted by IR's music so I cannot recall the songs now but give me some time.
  
  I had somewhere posted a list of movies which had good (great?) music by IR and which have obviously created a great hoopla in those days. IMO, those films were not his best though. His best were from his initial years' works where he instilled a good deal of freshness in the songs. Even in those songs, the interludes used to be off beat (that is not in keeping with the main tune) every now and then. You may be right to feel that Azhagiya KannE's interludes convey the mood of the situation. But I cannot think of enjoying a song thinking of its situation every time I hear it. My question is that who prevents IR from keeping his interludes go along with the tune and yet reflect the moods of the situation? I also cannot totally agree with your contention about 2 classes
  of listeners in music. Just to satisfy your listening pleasures, will you hear a song if I give you one with great interludes and weak tune and lyrics? you will appreciate the intricacies of an interlude only if it happens to be in a good song. Now, what do I mean by a good song? The first and foremost aspect of any good film song must be the catchy tunes. And the interludes. And the lyrics. They all should blend in harmony. Only such songs could linger in memory and stand beyond time. If you're willing I can give you umpteen songs composed by MSV which are rich in all the above.
  Another point. The interludes in old songs are not always short. The ones which we hear on Radio are actually the censored versions of the originals that appear in the films. Again, I don't see a point when you speak about the repetition of interludes. what if they are? Don't you listen to the stanzas if they are of the same tune? (which mostly are!) Then why not the interludes? Sometimes I find IR's interludes irritatingly long winding testing my patience and more so only because they are way off the main tune of the song.
  Coming to discuss the mood of the song. I think the tune should be such that it reflects the mood of the song and then the interludes to accentuate it and not the other way. Though I am no master of tunes, I could give you apt examples for MSV's ever lasting tunes which reflect the mood of the song, with the interludes only helping them in the affirmative. "Sonnadhu NeedhAnA" and "Chittukuruvikkenna KattuppAdu" just to name two.
  IR's interludes are like Java in a way. Create once and use everywhere!
  
  
• From: Velaiyaththavan (@ 129.252.22.244) on: Sun Jan 31 23:46:17 EST 1999
  
  Dear Srikanth,
  
  Please do not mistake me. Neenga theevira MSV priyara ? I have never found you writing anything negative about MSV!! Of course he deserves not be.
  
  
  

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