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Bass scores of Raja...

Topic started by Shankar (@ webgate0.mot.com) on Sun Apr 25 09:07:54 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Let's discuss the brilliant bass scores of raja..

the first song that comes to mind is
ponvAnam panneer thoovudhu innEram from inru nee nALai nAn

2.en gAnam inru arangERum -EVK

Srinath ,take over :-))))

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Responses:

• From: Srinath (@ 98ab00d9.ipt.aol.com) on: Sun Apr 25 10:01:53 EDT 1999
  
  Some songs whose bass score I like -
  
  1. Kannan Vandhu Paaduginran
  2. Anjali, Anjali, Anjali
  3. Ilam Pani thulir (available at Rex's site)
  4. Madai Thiranthu
  5. Megham Kottatum
  6. Oororama Aathupakkam
  7. Oru Iniya Manadhu
  8. Pon Vaanam Panneer (Shankar's fav. ? :-)) The melody in this song is unbelievable ! I have trouble believing that a human mind could conceive such a tune !!! Compared to the tune, the bass is just an ornament, a beautiful one nevertheless !)
  9. Pon Mane Theduthe
  10. Nilave Vaa
  11. Chinna Chinna, Vanna Kuyil
  12. Roja Poo Aadivanthathu
  13. Andha nilava thaan naan
  14. Pada Vandhadhor Gaanam
  15. Devanin Koil
  
  There are simply too many songs to list :-) These are the first few that immediately come to mind.
  Shankar, I can pick out the bass of almost any IR song note by note, but if you are looking for a more technical discussion on different bass styles and jargon, I'm sorry we'll need someone a lot more knowledgeable for that :-) Personally, I like "Oororama aathupakkam" because it was the most challenging song for me to pick out the bass and the timing was also very difficult ! For playing, "Kanna Vandhu Paaduginran" would be my all time favourite, especially the charanam !
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Sun Apr 25 10:43:16 EDT 1999
  
  sri :-)))
  
  Definitely ponvAnam is my fav no. In fact I got attracted to (& started appreciating the ) bass scores only after listening to that song.That way it's my fav one.
  
  I wud appreciate if u cud educate us with some funda which u think cud be understood by a layman like me :-) or things like what way a bass score of a particular song is better than the other or how does it add value to a song etc..
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Sun Apr 25 14:01:50 EDT 1999
  
  Minnaram manathu from guru, mandram vandha thendralukku, poonthaLiraada have very good bass scores.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ abd2a206.ipt.aol.com) on: Sun Apr 25 16:27:41 EDT 1999
  
  Shankar:
  Unfortunately, I have not been formally educated in western classical music and hence cannot give you detailed insights. But from what little I know, the bass score is closely entwined with the chord progressions in a song and so you can safely assume that when the chords are good, the bass will be good too. IR is the undisputed king in this area (NOM to other MD fans, but IR is really the undisputed king in constructing strong chord progressions as any musically knowledgeable person will tell you). What makes a chord progression strong (and thereby the bass impressive) is how the MD scores the song itself as well as an ability to perceive a song as more than just a melodious combination of notes. Chords are practically the heart and soul of IR's music. Most of the MDs probably score music sitting at their harmonium and playing around with a particular raga. In such cases, the melody might often be very good. I guess this must have been MSV's way of composing and hence his songs are unbeatable in melodic content. Another way of composing could be taking up a particular scale and exploring the various permutations and combinations of chords in that scale. These songs are more harmony based and often have great depth in them. This strong usage of chords also allows IR to be extremely creative with his violin ensembles. The reason - to put it in plain layman's language - is that a chord provides a set of additional notes to a single note or a short series of notes. These notes sound good when played together along with the main tune. They form sort of a wrapper for the tune. If you were to use several instruments to play the different notes in your chords the song would have a greater depth and variety. If your chords are themselves out of this world, then there is no one to question your orchestration :-) You can also consider a chord to be the bridge between the tune and the beats. Chords are played rythmically in tandem with the beats and since they wrap the main tune in them, they bind the beats and the tune together. What bass does is provide a low frequency (low pitch) support for the chords. Konjam ghaneerunnu irukkum. If you are imaginative then you'll tend to experiment with the bass too and place stress on certain notes which emphasize a particular part of the melody. For example, in "Ilam Pani Thulir Vidum Neram", after 'neram' you can hear a single note that comes with the lapse of half a beat. This gives a continuity between this line and the next and also provides the climax to a pregnant pause :-) Try imagining the same lines without this last note and you will see that the song sounds slightly flatter than it did before ! IR has also used bass often for counter-pointing. I guess you can consider Megham Kottatum to be one such song. This can also provide disastrous results if attempted by someone whose chords are not as good :-))) ARR's style of bass can compliment only his style of composing and recording songs. For more conventional western songs I am sure he too will have to provide a solid, traditional bass score. I am told that his "Anjali, Anjali" from duet also has a good bass score, but somehow I am not very impressed with it. "Humma, Humma", "Oorvasi", "Telephone Manipol", "Kuluvalile", "Kaadhalikkum Pennin Kaigal" are all prominent examples of ARR's styles of scoring bass. Some people like this as it simplifies things and makes the song more attractive. But I think it takes away the depth from a song and makes it sound weak and insipid when listening to it from a poor quality audio system or while playing it on stage. To really experience the effect of a bass guitar, you must be seated on the stage between the rythm guitarist and the singer :-) When the bass guitarist and the rythm guitarist strike the right notes, it can make even an ordinary singer sound great :-) There have been occasions where I do not know the song and yet I play something that would act as a filler so that the song does not sound hollow on stage. But I have found that rather than trying to be creative on stage if I just follow the rythm guitarist, the difference is tremendous. In fact, Srikanth once said that IR's harmonies are very flat. I too think this is true and Anand Mahadevan had a bone to pick with me for saying that :-))) (NOM, Anand :-)) They are flat because the harmony portion of a song is based on the chords and only when they are flat the song will have depth. The chords do not play the same note as the tune always - they play only a relative set of notes that sounds good when played along with the main tune. On the other hand, it is very difficult to create a harmony for complex tunes and so ARR's efforts should be appreciated in this area. What you hear in Pon Vaanam's bass, is called a slur(?) - sliding from one note to another. This is also difficult to play and difficult to compose too. It can sound very bad if not composed properly or if played badly. I have some personal experiences in this regard too ;-))) One more example of a bass gone bad is "Malare Mounama". Somehow, I found it very annoying to listen to the bass in this song. It sounds very synthetic and is totally unrelated to what a good chord progression could provide. Srikanth says that ARR uses different kinds of bass instruments and playing styles like a fretless bass, slap bass etc,. Also the Double Bass and Cello are often used in place of the bass guitar at some places to provide a smoother, softer low pitched bass score. I suppose these are largely used with string instruments. The bass guitar by itself is a well developed instrument in western music with bass solos also being performed (using the bass as the lead instrument). As I said before, I am not well versed in the technicalities and hence cannot provide a detailed description of what all a bass can do or can be used for.
  
  Whatever I have stated above is a result of my personal observations and should not be taken as the ultimate word in bass guitar :-) I may have made some mistakes too as my idea is my own and is not based on any rules governing western classical music. But it goes without saying that where a formal education is concerned, it will definitely provide you with a fuller understanding of the bass guitar. Meanwhile, you can take for granted that there is no one to beat IR at this game :-))
  
  Srikanth, if you were to come across this thread, I would be grateful for any additional information or correction on the technical side of the bass guitar. Another thing I would like to know is if IR's brother-in-law is his asthana bass guitarist. I was told this by some senior guitarist in Madras, and would like to clarify it. TIA !
  
  
• From: Raja Fan (@ spider-wd013.proxy.aol.com) on: Sun Apr 25 17:01:11 EDT 1999
  
  Srinath: Please, don't say no. You are my Guru. What an explanation. Really, it is fascinating to know so much about, bass, chord progressions and harmony. I am able to relate to this now.
  
  But, I have to ask you this. How does flat harmony make a song feel more deep. What do you think of Salil Choudhury's harmonies and chord progressions? I always considered Salil Choudhury as the only one in India having an edge over IR's style and perfection of the Harmonies and chords. Would you also agreee?
  
  About MSV, my opinion is - in the long-term listening I prefer MSV's lack of the harmony, chord songs because it is the power he packs in his melodies that he does not even need an orchestra. His songs are flawless. (I am not talking of his orchestral style.)
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ abd2a206.ipt.aol.com) on: Sun Apr 25 17:19:49 EDT 1999
  
  Raja Fan:
  I have not heard a lot of Salil Choudhary's songs. But for a long time, I was under the mistaken impression that "Poo Vannam..." from Azhiyaatha Kolangal was by IR ! But having heard so much of SC, I would love to know if there are some songs on the Net which I can listen to !
  
  About MSV, I fully agree with you. What I failed to mention in my previous post is that creating harmonies for complex melodies is not only tough but also an excercise in futility. It does not provide any support for the tune and in fact distracts your attention from a melodious number. This should also answer your question as to why a flat harmony provides more depth. It accentuates the tune without influencing the original melody in any way. This also implies that a flatter tune (not flat, but flat ;-)) can have better harmony than a melodious tune. If somebody tries to remake MSV's melodies with a lot of harmony thrown in, it is bound to be a big flop (though it would certainly help the western numbers that he scored). So, I too agree that a lack of orchestration in MSV's songs contributed a lot towards retaining the original beauty of the tune. You can look at this in two ways - either MSV didn't have sufficient western classical exposure/knowledge or he was so good with melody that he never had to depend on another style for variety ! The second perspective is an overwhelming tribute to the genius of MSV :-) When it comes to re-recording, sadly some emotions cannot be conveyed with just melody, they require a distinct, orchestrated score and only IR has ever provided this to the best of my knowledge. This can be considered a genuine drawback with MSV.
  
  Standarad Disclaimer !
  I do not wish to turn this into an MSV vs IR vs ARR debate, so if anyone feels that I have slighted one or the other, I assure you that the fault lies in the way you (mis)read my posts ;-)) and not in the way that I intend them to be read :-)
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Sun Apr 25 17:28:31 EDT 1999
  
  Shibu,
  
  Please upload "poongatrile" soon. Srinath and other bass guitar fans are bound to freeze in surprise.. :-)
  
  IMO, it is the one of the BEST ever scores in bass guitar. Sri, thanks for the wonderful write up. You must have heard "Malarae malarae ullasam", "Ponmaaney theduthey". Apart from these we may also have to look into the bass violin scores eg, Raakkamma kayyai thatttu. There are distinct violin pieces merging simultaneously with each other to produce wonderful interludes and preludes. I had a tough time organizing my college orchestra and playing it. It really drove us - the amatuers, crazy. But once done, I felt like floating in air :-)
  
  

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