ANALYSIS - REASONS FOR ILAYARAJA'S DECLINE IN TFM MARKET : THINGS BEYOND THE CONTROL

Home Forum Wiki Notes Register FAQ Sitemap About Us Contact Us

ANALYSIS - REASONS FOR ILAYARAJA'S DECLINE IN TFM MARKET : THINGS BEYOND THE CONTROL ANALYSIS - REASONS FOR ILAYARAJA'S DECLINE IN TFM MARKET : THINGS BEYOND THE CONTROL

Topic started by SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN (@ client-151-200-126-20.bellatlantic.net) on Sat Jan 3 00:35:56 EST 1998.
All times in EDT/EST +9:30/10:30 for IST.

Responses:

From: Sathya (@ client-151-200-126-20.bellatlantic.net) on: Sat Jan 3 00:42:17 EST 1998

Guys,

This is an article I posted in a thread

http://newtfmpage.com/forum/24703.15:38:06.html
while responding to the grievance of an Ilayaraja Fan for the decline of his market.

I will put the article and the responses followed so far for your reference. Let us have a healthy discussion.

I request every one of you that whatever you counterargue, please substantiate with solid evidence or background. Please do not comment just like that and divert the discussion.

Thanks,
Sathya
------------------------------------------------

Guys,

Let me explain why the Giant Ilayaraja has come down. Forgive me if the discussion is too long.

Also I will explain how his decline is different from others.

If you see the decline of others, they ran out of stuff and they could not sustain in the market.
Somebody else would have taken their place and they lost market. (It includes K.V.M., MSV,
V.KUMAR etc.)

But if you see the decline of Raja, few things are visible.

First thing.

Nobody took away his market. He was doing 45 films an year (Can you imagine!!!) and more than
125
hit songs an year. So if any body has taken away his market, he should be doing the same no. of
films.

Only Deva is doing 30 films an year and producing almost junk. Hardly 2 or 3 that to copied
professionally from Raja.

Has Rahman took his Market? No! Kunjumon and Sankar have never been a customer of Raja.
Even
Mani's "Iruvar" failed musically too, which never happened to him before. Even when ManiRathnam
has failed to give a good Movie Raja has Rescued him in the following films. "Idayakoil, PagalNilavu,

Anjali, Thalabathi ". Even Agninatchthram, Idhayaththai Thirudathe have obviously had Raja's stamp,

and they might have gone null and void in the absence of Raja's Music.

Then what made him to go away from the Market? I attribute the following things for his decline.

1. Backstabbing
2. Satellite TV
3. Failure of All of his Customers all of a sudden
4. Prestige issues.

Backstabbing
------------

I like to quote the following three guys for betraying Ilayaraja. Resoective fans forgive me.

1. Rajinikanth

Veera was about to go for a flop. Raja rescued and the film ran for 100 days and saved Rajini. It
was
the time Rajini was growing like anything. Press people started writng about Music rather than the
Gimmics of Super star. Rajini was not happy to share the credit. He himself accepted in the 100th
day function that Raja takes 50 % and he takes 50%. And he decided not share the credit
anylonger.
If you see the songs of Batcha, Muthu, Arunachalam they were primarily Superstar's songs and if
you
see the songs of Ejaman, Veera they wre Raja's songs rather than Rajini songs. Raja is the only
man
who can supress super star. The same fact prevented Rajini from using Raja's services.

2. Kamalahasan.

Everybody knows Kamal is an oppurtunist. After Mahanathi he did not have Raja for his movies
(Except Sathileelavathi).

1. Nammavar

Due to some differences between Nagiretti and Raja Ilayaraja did not score for this.

2. Indhiyan

After the failure of Nammavar Kamal lost confidence on him and wanted to try a different
combination
to survive in the Market. So he joined with Sankar and Rahman. Film was succesful but Kamal was
humiliated by the duo regarding which I am happy. Shankar warned in Anantha Vikatan that Kamal
Has No business with Director's duty and Rehman refused to customize the tune for Kamal and said
he can show the tunes only to the director.
Kamal would have survived in the Market. But he fell down losing his identity.

3. Barathiraja.

Can you think of 16 vayathinile .... Mudal mariathai....Nadidithendral in Raja's Absence.

Barathiraja was jelous over Raja's supremacy in cene field and he could not tolerate Raja's kingdom.

So joined with Rehman.

All these things happened in the same year and was a big blow to Raja.

All these 3 peoplr have sucked Ilayaraja's blood when he was at the peak. They are indebted to
Ilayaraja for their success in career.

Ilayaraja built each one's Image movie by Movie like an architect. How could Kamal earn the Knight
"kadal Mannan" without raja's songs. Right from "pothuvaga en manasu thangam" Raja carefully
enhanced Rajini's Image.

Raja never got benefited from these guys. He had so many customers and gave life to number of
actors like "ramarajan, murali, rajkiran, mohan, vijaykanth, karthik", producers like "kovaithambi,
sangilimurugan, amma creations siva, sathyajothi thiyagarajan, sathya movies" directors like
'santhanabarathi, p.vasu, R.V.udayakumar, R.K.selvamanietc.." Only because of Ilayaraja these
people have survived.

After gaining all benefits from Raja, they left him alone. They should have stood by Ilayaraja when
Raja had a crisis. But they reiterated that Cinema field is famous for betraying and backstabbing.

Who is Manirathnam without Ilayaraja? Where do you see Sridhar or Balachandar in this 2 decades

without Raja.

All people were around him when they needed him.

But Ilayaraja with his talents as good as he was in 1976, is out of Market. Nandri Ketta
Ulagamappa!!!

Still he proved by "kadaluuku Mariathai" has he is supreme. While Mallus still stand by him our guys
are away from him.

Satellite TV
-------------

It was the time when "Gentleman" Was released. All satellite TVs started a program called "top 10,
pepsi 10 etc..."

Almost all tv's suntv, rajtv, etc etc put that gentleman is no. 1. They also promulgated that those
songs
were copied in Hindi too.

When Ilayaraja was copied by Hindi people for 15 yrs nobody wrote about that.

Hindi Music Director "Anand Milind" openly stated that Ilayaraja is as good as the God and he does
not feel ashamed to copy Raja as he is taking music from the Musical Guru.

All of a sudden press gave importance to Rahman while these TVs started promulgating Rehman's
songs are No 1 always.

Raja's songs became hit only after people heatr them. Bit today these music directors' songs even
before getting released come with a Tag called "super hit". Today's music relies on advertisement
rather than stuff in it. Even Kuppai songs were whispered by people because of repeated adds.

And TVs argued that this is youngster's season and they influenced people's views. Youngsters
went
away from Raja feeling he is old.

When Raja was growing he benefited Radios , TVs, Recording centres. Even today you can see
Raja's photo in musical centre's as Raja only gave life to them.

So technology went against him. It is a fate we have yo regret.

Failure of Customers
---------------------

Primarily he lost good customers like Rajini, Kamal, Barathiraja, Balachandar, Manirathnam in a
short
span.

Then Mahendran, P.Vasu, R.V.Udayakumar, R.K.selvamani, Rajkiran, Vijaykanth ran out of field,
Balumahendra alsom lost rithm. Good producers like Sathyajyothi, Sathya movies , AVM,
Kovaithambi also faced failures.

All these things happened in an year and this led to his decline.

Can any other music director before IR or After IR hit the film without a good artist, producer, and
with
lowest budget. It was done only by Raja and such era ends with himmself.

Prestige Issues
---------------

Raja could have rescued himself by adjusting with or coming down and making a request to his old
friends. But he was not ready to do that.

We should appreciate that. He is a single man Army. He is a Lion defeated by 100 Foxes.
----------------------
He achieved in every department in Music. His achievements are not measurable. Even with money,

onofficial newses state that , this single man has earned more than Rs 300 crores in 20 years.

Never mind that Ilayaraja is not in the Market. Even if not today he has to come down some other
day. Nobody can reach the heights he reached.

I like to qoute the following proverb.

Yaanai Paduththalum Kudhirai Mattam.

(Even if elephant falls down, Horse is still inferior)

Guys, your comments are welcome. Sorry for such a lenghthy discussion. Thank you

Sathya (vagees@hotmail.com)
virginia

From: sathya (@ client-151-200-125-252.bellatlantic.net) on: Tue Dec 30 02:13:39 EST 1997

Please forgive me for numerous spelling and grammar mistakes as I have composed late night at
one
stretch.

sathya

From: vasu palaniandi (@ pluto.nationwide.com) on: Tue Dec 30 12:33:44 EST 1997

it is really good. i appreciate your efforts.
but don't say that raja's market has declined.
it is still there. only one man in this field can do wonders with one song like ''otha roova tharraen''.
even heroes like murali and directors
like kazhanchiyam can give a hit movie if Raja
is the music director. he is coming back with all
the power in ''kadalukku mariyaadhai''

From: T.Madhan (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Tue Dec 30 13:37:52 EST 1997

Dear Sathya,

YOur writeup was fantastic - but I would like to beg to differ in one aspect.

Kamal - IR relationship-

I don't agree that Kamal ditched IR - because , very recently in Ananda Vikatan, IR had made the
mention that if there is one actor who has ISAI GYANAM, it is Kamal - now if IR was not in good
terms with Kamal, IR would have never said that -
Kamal's abstinence from IR may be because other reasons - otherwise, KarthikRaja would not have

composed for "Marudha Nayagam " trailer.
or Kamal would not have sung in KR's ULLASAM album.

I completely agree with all of your other comments - YENNAKKU RATHTHAM KODHIKKUDHU when
I
think of the backstabbings IR must have experienced.

From: vasu palaniandi (@ pluto.nationwide.com) on: Tue Dec 30 17:36:47 EST 1997

dear Mr. Madhan.. i clearly agree with the kind of
behavior that Mr. sathya has described about
Kamalhasan. He is a very good example for an opportunist. He is a good actor in real life too.
I too like him very much as an actor but not as a
human being. The words that Mr. Sathya has used are all 100% correct in the matter of
Kamalhaasan.
Though the arguments you put up are all of convincing nature, truly it is not. Obviously a person like
IR won't critisize in public. None would like his son's career being spoiled bcos of
his personal problems.(especially in cinema industry).(it applies to politics too).
these words are worth repeating again:
---------------------------------------
After the failure of Nammavar Kamal lost confidence on him and wanted to try a different
combination
to survive in the Market. So he joined with Sankar and Rahman. Film was succesful but Kamal was
humiliated by the duo regarding
which I am happy. Shankar warned in Anantha Vikatan that Kamal Has No business with Director's
duty and Rehman refused to customize the tune for Kamal and said he can show the tunes only to
the
director.
Kamal would have survived in the Market. But he fell down losing his identity.

From: sathya (@ client-151-200-127-11.bellatlantic.net) on: Tue Dec 30 20:05:07 EST 1997

Hi Madan,

As a Kamal's Fan your grievance is acceptable. In my discussion I did not mention about a word
came from Kamal's mouth, because I was wounded by such a word so much that I wanted to forget
those words.

Few years ago a reporter asked Kamal to rank Indian Music Directors.( I hope 1991) Kamal said
First
10 places goes to Ilayaraja and rest is not worth listing.

Last year he was asked by Kumudam why IR does not figure in his recent films. Kamal replied

" Producers want to do business, I do not want to interfere "

I will give the exact words he told in Tamil.

" Rajavai podanunnuthan asai, Panam pottu Yaavaaram Pannuranga, ennala thadukka mudiala"

What does this mean? He liked Raja's Market rather than Raja's talents and Raja himself.

A good friend is a person who participates in all your endeavours and stands by you when you are
in
a crisis. Is Kamal a good friend? I would have appreciated his stand if he atleast had not told in the
press such a word. Ilayaraja would have felt more wounded about this instance than his decline
itself.

Kamal as an actor, as a screenplay writer, as a trend setter etc etc stays far ahead of the rest. I
agree that he is one of the most talented artists in Indian Film Industry all time. But as a human
being,
he is not so. I have given you the evidence. He changes his colours like a chameleon.
It is also evident from his recent statement during Film Industry strike that even though he
Balachandar may be his Guru, he came to the Industry even before Balachandar and claims
seniority
over Balachandar.

Sathya.

From: Kannan (@ 202.54.34.105) on: Wed Dec 31 07:10:36 EST 1997

Hi Sathya,
Your work was fantastic, now your assumptions are becoming true. Do'nt listen to what madhan is
telling.He is a always biased towards Kamal. Kamal proved yet again that he is away from Raja. For

his new muti crore venture"Maruthanayagam" the music director is not Raja. In last week The
Hindu(Sunday,28th dec) in Folio section, there was a article about Tabala Genius Zakir Hussian, in
that he himself(Hussian)told that he is going to do the music for Kamal's "Marathunayagam".

But in ur writeup i am very particular about the sattlite TV role in current days.

If Sat Tv were not there now. Our beloved raja would be the ultimate now also.

P.S - Sorry For Spelling mistakes if any.

Kannan

From: Nithin Sreedevan (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Wed Dec 31 16:32:34 EST 1997

Dear Mr. Sathya:

I am just delighted to read your article on that great creation of God, Shree Ragadevan Illaiyaraja.

If you have any more, please enthrall us with the news.

I only wish the best for our Great Raja.
From: srikanth (@ 69.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Sat Jan 3 03:28:16 EST 1998

HI,
I going to add a reason, E-GO-problem....
I feel Maestro(I wish all Raja fan calls him Maestro than IR) had misunderstanding with majority of the directors,
1. Balachander
2. Mani Rathnam
3. Bharathi Raja
4. BagyaRaj
List is quite long
Every one was waiting to over throw Raja,
When Mani Rathanam found Rahaman, (with stuff) -
all these directors joined hands and pushed AR on the top...

Srikanth
From: Sathya (@ client-151-200-125-27.bellatlantic.net) on: Sat Jan 3 06:23:04 EST 1998

Hi Srikkaanth,

I like to enhance your view. If you see the EGO clash between Ilayaraja and the rest one thing will be visible. They never tolerated Raja's dominations in their films. They didn't have an oppurtunity in the till 1992 to come out of Raja.
Even after coming out from Raja only Manirathnam has got benefits. Other do not have the market value they had when Raja was with them.
Primarily the problem is that Raja never gives interviews to Press. Many criticise him for this. Truely speaking, he did not have time. He was doing around 40 - 50 films an year and dedeicated himself for music. But these poeple after each hit will call the press and declare "Nan thaan Periya AAlu, Naan vachchathuthaan trend". Infact Raja never spent time speaking "Vettikadhai" with these people. They got angry many times waiting at Raja's house when Raja was at Pooja or composing. Raja has never given up his time for others whoever it is. That is why we got so many songs over the years.
Can these people imagine their career without Raja? Even Pagyaraj came to the Biggest height only after Munthaanai Mudichchu. Definitely songs played the vital role atleast making the 75 day hit to a 250 day hit.
To discuss about the role Raja played in these guys' career itself can be discussed in pages. Nandri kettavargal!! Particularly Barathiraja was benefited to the maximum extent. If you do not have the magnanimity to accept talent, you can never come to the peak.
Even Manirathnam, he dared to come out of Raja only after completely established himself. If he was really sure that he was the sole reason for his movies' success, he and GV would not have fallen at Raja's legs for scoring Music to Thalabathi.

All people came out of Raja onl after their establishment. Santharppavaathigal!! If they had guts, soodu, suranai they should not have utilised Raja's services. Koozhukkum aasai, Meesaikkum aasai.
Except mani all faced grant failures after coming out of raja. Mani also in his career for the first time got the songs failed. When I was in the theatre, for the first time in a Mani's film I have seen people going to canteen in mass during songs in Iruvar.
Now Ilayaraja back with a Bang in "kadhalukku mariathai". biggest hit of 1997, expected to run 100 days in 75 theatres. Raja is a genius, his talents are immortal and he will be back in the hunt sooner or later.
"Dharmam Iruthiyil Vellum"

Sathya
From: j.murugesan (@ ww-tl01.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Jan 3 08:42:50 EST 1998

Guys,

The discussion seems to be very interesting...
Do any of you know exactly the problem between Raja and the so called frontline directors like Balachander, Barathiraja and Maniratnam....

I used to hear that it was just beco's of ego Balachander walked away from Raja...

In the silver jubilee function of PUTHU PUTHU ARTHANGAL all the guest speakers started praising Raja for the music and singled out him as the sole reason for the success of the movie...This instigated Balachander to a greater degree and he went on to make his next movie without songs (ORU VEEDU IRU VAASAL)..
Some told me that, he took that as a personal challenge that he can give a successful movie without any songs...Well everyone knows how difficult it was for Balachander himself to survive without the greats of Raja...

Similarly people used to say that there were some problems in the preview of THALAPATHI etc, when GV's family passed embarassing comments over Raja's family or mistreated them (kandukkaama vittuttaanga) etc...

Can anyone elaborate...

-Muru-.
From: j.murugesan (@ ww-tl01.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Jan 3 08:43:13 EST 1998

Guys,

The discussion seems to be very interesting...
Do any of you know exactly the problem between Raja and the so called frontline directors like Balachander, Barathiraja and Maniratnam....

I used to hear that it was just beco's of ego Balachander walked away from Raja...

In the silver jubilee function of PUTHU PUTHU ARTHANGAL all the guest speakers started praising Raja for the music and singled out him as the sole reason for the success of the movie...This instigated Balachander to a greater degree and he went on to make his next movie without songs (ORU VEEDU IRU VAASAL)..
Some told me that, he took that as a personal challenge that he can give a successful movie without any songs...Well everyone knows how difficult it was for Balachander himself to survive without the greats of Raja...

Similarly people used to say that there were some problems in the preview of THALAPATHI etc, when GV's family passed embarassing comments over Raja's family or mistreated them (kandukkaama vittuttaanga) etc...

Can anyone elaborate...

-Muru-.
From: j.murugesan (@ ww-tl01.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Jan 3 08:43:31 EST 1998

Guys,

The discussion seems to be very interesting...
Do any of you know exactly the problem between Raja and the so called frontline directors like Balachander, Barathiraja and Maniratnam....

I used to hear that it was just beco's of ego Balachander walked away from Raja...

In the silver jubilee function of PUTHU PUTHU ARTHANGAL all the guest speakers started praising Raja for the music and singled out him as the sole reason for the success of the movie...This instigated Balachander to a greater degree and he went on to make his next movie without songs (ORU VEEDU IRU VAASAL)..
Some told me that, he took that as a personal challenge that he can give a successful movie without any songs...Well everyone knows how difficult it was for Balachander himself to survive without the greats of Raja...

Similarly people used to say that there were some problems in the preview of THALAPATHI etc, when GV's family passed embarassing comments over Raja's family or mistreated them (kandukkaama vittuttaanga) etc...

Can anyone elaborate...

-Muru-.
From: j.murugesan (@ ww-tl01.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Jan 3 08:43:38 EST 1998

Guys,

The discussion seems to be very interesting...
Do any of you know exactly the problem between Raja and the so called frontline directors like Balachander, Barathiraja and Maniratnam....

I used to hear that it was just beco's of ego Balachander walked away from Raja...

In the silver jubilee function of PUTHU PUTHU ARTHANGAL all the guest speakers started praising Raja for the music and singled out him as the sole reason for the success of the movie...This instigated Balachander to a greater degree and he went on to make his next movie without songs (ORU VEEDU IRU VAASAL)..
Some told me that, he took that as a personal challenge that he can give a successful movie without any songs...Well everyone knows how difficult it was for Balachander himself to survive without the greats of Raja...

Similarly people used to say that there were some problems in the preview of THALAPATHI etc, when GV's family passed embarassing comments over Raja's family or mistreated them (kandukkaama vittuttaanga) etc...

Can anyone elaborate...

-Muru-.
From: RAJAN (@ proxy-122.iap.bryant.webtv.net) on: Sat Jan 3 23:02:02 EST 1998

Decline in TFM market..?

See the upcoming movies of IR.
" target="_top">http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/3524/upcoming.html"> UPCOMING IR ALBUMS

Thanks to MPR
From: Rajesh (@ pdxss902.jf.intel.com) on: Sun Jan 4 21:55:43 EST 1998

Sathya,

Thanks for starting an Excellent discussion

Marketing plays a major role nowadays in film music too. Every producer spends lakhs in popularising the songs and all the satellite TVs
help their cause. I am amazed at the extent of
popularity of IRs songs even now when they dont
have any marketing at all. I dont see IRs movie
songs getting all due advertisement. I feel IR
has always provided great songs and is continuing to do so. Just bcos people listen to the ads and songs of other music directors million times a day, there is a myth that these guys are better.
Nobody can take the place of Maestro. He will continue to do his job and will not be bothered about what the press has to say about him.
From: P.Raja (@ alcor.concordia.ca) on: Mon Jan 5 00:29:12 EST 1998

Hello,

A coin has both sides. A man has both good and bad character. If anyone has complete goodness in him he can only be God. That's why IR also believes in God than in anybody else. But, still there are some weak points which should also be considered, to awaken the genius character existing within IR.
I would like to list the following points.

1) First of all, IR gave very good songs with TMS starting from his first movie "Annakili". But, later on there was a clash between him and TMS. And finally it ended up in ruining the career of that great singer.
2) There was a clash between Vairamuthu and IR. But, anyway, he again came up due to the help of other MDs.
3) Most of his songs these days have same interlude music. I would say this is one main reason, why his music these days do not score that much except a few.

So, my conclusion is that for a best performance to be given, each and every aspect of it should be best. Not alone the music composition should be good. If this is what is needed, then it would become a classical performance, than an entertainment. So, the lyrics and also its cohesion with scene going on in the movie, are important.
The comments should be given without any bias or favour in mind. Because, we, the audience are jurors.
So, I would like to know, if some of you have any opinion against what I have typed in, here.

P.Raja
From: JAX (@ chaos.egr.uh.edu) on: Mon Jan 5 14:08:02 EST 1998

*** ANTI-IR POST ALERT ************

Hi !

1. Thread Title (by an IR fan)- ANALYSIS - REASONS FOR ILAYARAJA'S DECLINE IN
**********
TFM MARKET : THINGS BEYOND THE CONTROL

--- so IR fans agree that he has declined? How did he become famous? By TFM. Not in anything else. So TFM is where he has to be judged.

2. Kamal, Rajini, Balachander, Manirathnam, BarathiRaja, Vairamuthu and a lot of others broke away from IR - How come the others are blamed and no blame is placed on IR? If everyone is having problems with IR maybe the problem is with IR.

3. IR's doctorate - It was awarded in a hotel in New Jersey. The organizer (Tamilian) mentioned some university name while IR mentioned another!! Go figure..I think it was just a ploy to get IR to come...

4. IR did so many movies...so many hit songs..blah, blah,... how come he is not able to do that now? Before, in the TOP 10 songs IR's used to fill up all 10 spots! How come no more? I guess all the listeners are against IR. The common man doesn't give a damn who the MD is, as along as the songs are good...

5. Without IR none of the actors, directors would have come up....give us a break. IR definitely played a role. If the movie is a hit - it was due to IR. If the movie is a flop - it was due to the actor, director, and others. Right? Majority of IR's movies were flops. Any comments?

6. In IR's movies, you don't see the actor but IR. In Ejamaan one sees IR and not Rajini --
---- I thought the music has to suit the situation and the actor. That is the mark of a good MD. Any comments?

7. SatTV has helped ARR --- MSV fans claim that tape recorders and TVs helped IR. Agree? IR songs cannot be telecast on SatTV... SatTV electronics hate IRs high quality music and mess it up...

8. IR is the best in the world. ARR, Deva copy tunes from others. So their songs become hits.
---- Some MD had composed these tunes. People like these songs more than IRs recent songs...are those MDs (who composed the original ones) better than IR?

9. ARR is popular because of advertisement. Ok.
IR was the first MD for whom a cutout was put. Hence he is great. No marketing was involved here. It was done because IR didn't want people know that he was the MD. ARR's photo is on the cassette cover. IR's was never on any cover.Right?

10. Kamal -- He is a very bad actor. He is not at all trying to improve. He is an opportunist. Look at how he has jumped into the politics bandwagon. His first hit was 16 vayathinile. Before that he didn't have any movies leave alone hits. He was known as Kadhal illavarasan after his romantic songs in 16 Vayathinile. It had nothing to do with his acting, looks,previous movies, etc. After he left IR, he hasn't had any hits. Indian, Avvai were big flops in Tamil and Hindi. The music was also a flop. The songs couldn't do better than 1 in the local and all-India countdowns. Right??

(Frankly I think IR and Kamal are good friends. Kamal is the only one (among stars) to say, in print, that IR is definitely better than ARR. He signed IR for SathiL even after IR refused for Nammavar. Maybe IR said he didn't have time for Marudanayagam like he did for Iruvar. This clearly proves that Kamal and Manirathnam are opportunists. If they weren't, they would have done their movies without MDs.)

11. Rajini - Veera was going to be a flop. IR saved it. Likewise Batcha, Arunachalam were going to be flops -- Deva didn't save it. They flopped. Don't know why Rajini keeps making movies that he knows will flop without IR. Rajini has given no hits with other MDs and has no fan following. All the people who come to his movies are actually IR's fans in disguise. All his movies with IR were hits. In the earlier movies Rajini gave more (like 90% ?)credit to IR but in Veera he gave only 50% credit to IR. Now he gives 0% credit, which is very bad. Comments?

** I am an IR fan. I am not trying to belittle IR here. But I think that (so too the general public) other MDs are coming up with good stuff, better than IR's recent ones. Want to see what fancy arguments our diehard IR fans come up with! **
From: T.Madhan (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Mon Jan 5 14:12:26 EST 1998

Dear Sathya,

You had mentioned about IR avoiding the press -

Tell me , how many of the members of the press know anything about MUSIC ?

To interview a genius of IR's calibre, you should have stuff - the maximum no. of interviews that IR has given is for the great Carnatic music Critic, the great great, MR.SUPPUDU - i remember the first interview appeared in an edition of " The Illustrated Weekly " sometime in 1982-83. Mr.Suppudu criticised IR but even now, Suppudu has great regards for the Maestro.

Interview seivadharkku arugadhai illaadhavargalukku IR podra maamedhaigal petti kodukka vendiya avasiyam illai.

Idhil kodumai yennavendral, oru murai, yedho oru Hindi Flm Magazine il , I think it was STARDUST, one of those trash magazines, IR ai patri abathhtamaaga oru writeup. So what IR did in avoiding the press was very much justified.
From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.238) on: Mon Jan 5 17:07:15 EST 1998

MR.JAX,
whatever arguments u put forth in favour of other music directors the fact still remains that IR is the best composer today.a good composer is not judged by the no.of cassetes sold,or whether he figures in the SUN TV top 10 or not,or for that matter whether he has any fan following at all or not.as sathya put it i judge a composer mainly by
1.his creativity

2.his composing ability and speed

3. if he is a south indian composer,then his ability to blend raagas well with film songs

4. his BGM

5.depth and melody of tunes.

and in all these aspects I challenge that no one can win an argument against IR and say that anyone else is better.i do not give a damn about audience's ratings.i have never given a damn about it anyway, even when raja was supposedly at his 'peak'and iam not sad either that he does not have too many films in the top 10.

and the argument that IR has been displaced because others give better music can never be agreed.
i can say that the people's or rather the youngster's (who are the max. buyer of cassettes)
taste has declined.will u agree?
i can also add saying that MTV or Vtv has brought in all sorts of junk music like rap which has influenced the youngsters into listening rahman's music.will u agree?
or if u argue saying that listening to all these rap songs means an improvement in taste actually, then there is no point in arguing at all. because taste differs from person to person
and ultimately if i like raja's music even after listening to ARR's songs for 5 years now then it means i simply don't like or do not have the taste for rahman's music.

So do not give arguments like, since IR is not in the top 10 ,other people like sirpi,deva(who figures prominently in the top 10) are better MD'S.as per your argument deva should be the best MD as of now since he has the max. films,not even ARR! absolutely RIDICULOUS!
vijay
prominently in the top 10) are better MD'S.
From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.238) on: Mon Jan 5 17:14:47 EST 1998

the fiest line in the last pare should read as
"sice IR's songs are not in the top 10" and not
'since IR is not in the top 10"
vijay
From: Srikanth (@ 224.minneapolis-07.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Mon Jan 5 19:25:47 EST 1998

HI

I agree 100% with "JAX"

There was ego clashes between directors and Raja.

Someone here has told all the actors earned out of Raja, give me a break ,

Rajini - he made chandrabose scores to be a hit

Kamal can do without IR , Avai shanumugi, Namavar
(all the songs did well)

Every one has talent, It not just Raja's! pure music for sucess..

One of his demand was to sing a number and
if possible write a song...
(Remeber the movie call geethanjali,
in which IR sang all the song!, it was a flop)

Raja had ego problems and (started demanding) or forcing the directors in his way..
This was one of the main reason for his decline.

Srikanth
From: srikanth (@ 224.minneapolis-07.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Mon Jan 5 19:39:55 EST 1998

HI,

Vijay: Your point is not clear - Except blind Raja worship.

You say AR's junk music,
Do you know otagatha kati in gentleman is pure dharmavathi,
Do you know AnjaliAnjali in Duet is misra mandu

Do you know AR's album Vande matram is sold in the city of Minneapolis in the US....in an American Shop (Sam Goody)

He has achived something man,cut this crap out on AR....Dont curse AR to bring up IR ,

If you dont care about Audience ratings means that you are unable to digest the facts, IR is in his recession stage now. There is always a Recession after a Boom....

Srikanth
From: Rajesh (@ pdxss902.jf.intel.com) on: Mon Jan 5 21:15:35 EST 1998

Mr. Srikanth,

Vijay may be biased towards IR but do you mean to say getting Vande Mataram in a US store is an achievement. If SONY produces another Indian Pop singers or MDs album it will defintely release it in many American stores. That in no way means anything. I am not trying to belittle Rahman or
praise IR. Cant digest the fact that just bcos
a big company releases a casette it achieves greatness. So will u say if How to Name it is released by SONY and is available in US store, it is great otherwise it is junk. Lets try to evaluate by musical standards and not marketing standards
From: SATHIYAVAGEESARAN (@ client-151-200-127-202.bellatlantic.net) on: Mon Jan 5 22:30:25 EST 1998

TO Mr.JAX
---------

MY ANSWERS TO YOUR 11 POINTS (ON BEHALF OF ALL IR FANS)
-------------------------------------------------------

1. IR's market has declined.

Yes , I agree that IR's market has declined. IR is not a God to stay at the market for 1000 years. Ups and Downs are part of every human being. We are not ashamed of the decline of IR's market and we are only discussing the reasons for his decline.
Definitely TFM is the judge to decide who is in the market. IR became popular only by virtue of TFM. On the other hand, TFM was promoted by IR and not by anybody else before IR and after IR. I have given enough arguments substantited by solid evidences in another forum just ahead of this.
Today I claim that nobody is No. 1 in the market. If somebody claims that he is No. 1, he should be doing atleast 40 films per year and should be giving atleast 125 hit songs an year. Today the total number of hit songs per year is less than 20.
If at all you claim that IR has lost the capability to give good songs, it is not a shame to IR. If Giving a good song is a measure for a Music Director, Ilayaraja has done it more than 2000 times. Out of the films he has done Music, more than 150 films have all the songs being mega hit.
Today he has less market value does not mean that he is not the Best MD all time.

I like to quote the words from "Anantha Vigatan" associate-editor Madhan.

"Every good Musician has 3 phases in his life. In his first phase he does the things to attract the people. In the second phase he does whatever he wishes and makes the people to accept it. In the third phase he does not care about others and does something for his peace and rests. Ilayaraja is in the third phase."

I like to quote another word from writer Sujatha when he mentioned about Raja while writing about the functions of brain in Junior Vikatan.

" There are very few persons in the world whose knowledge in their field makes to believe that there exists something called "GOD'S GIFT". Ilayaraja's talent is not measurable and his talents are beyond human capacity."

It is not possible to quote all the praises IR got from popular people. Those people are in the field of music rather than mere observers like us.

To counterargue their words, we should be more than a mere spectator..

Ilayaraja is like a Funadamental scientist whereas today MDs are like engineers who work with machines and produce outputs.

I have discussed enough why IR is uncomparable with others in the previous discussion in the Forum.

IR is uncomparable does not mean that he will stay in the field for as many years as he wishes. He has been in the field for 20 years and it will not be a surprise if his potential to produce good songs decreases.

If "Abdul Kalaam" writes the exam with an M.Tech student studying in Aeronatics in IIT, he may score less. Does that mean he lost his potential? He has done everything people to envy him. After crossing all those stages only he came to this position.

Asking Raja to prove himself by composing few good songs will be as foolish as asking Kalaam to write a theory exam and asking Don Bradman now to score a century and prove him against Today's batsmen.

People are definitely the judges. But people are famous for defeating Kamarajars and Annadhurais. Change in people's verdict does not mean that the person lost has gone out of stuff.

2. EVERYONE IS HAVING PROBLEMS WITH RAJA, SO THE PROBLEM IS WITH ILAYARAJA RATHER THAN OTHERS.

Ilayaraja was the busiest person in the industry and the people you mentioned Barathiraja, Balachandar, Rajini, Manirathnam, Kamal,Vairamuthu all are one of the customers of Ilayaraja and with respect to them Raja was the only person who can give a music they are dreaming about.

Ilayaraja has never spoken about his hit songs or movies in public primarily he does not have time to speak in the press. On the other hand these people use to talk about the movies they performed, they are going to perform , the accolades they received so far etc...( Probably except Rajinikanth ). Ilayaraja spends around 12 - 16 hours in music. While in Pooja he never compromises for anybody. Many of these people many times waited for Raja for hours. Raja never talked "Vettikkathai" with them.
As far as he is concerned they are the part of his numerous customers and he can give a priority and he cannot give his golden time.

After the film becomes success, they claim that they had the key for success. Journals use to write that songs were the backbone. Did Raja tell that Good Songs made the film a grant success? Why you bother about the press?

Seeing the press reports reiterating that songs being the key success for "PUDHU PUDHU ARTHTHANGAL", Balachandar declared that he need not rely on Raja's role in his success and came out. We know the rest of the story.

Similarly in all Rajini's hits, Raja played a vital role, and even in failures he retained his pride. (e.g. Dharmaththin Thalaivan)

It is obvoius that Raja played the vital role in Veera's success. Naturally by default having got biggest hits of the year Rajini should have gone for Raja's services. Why he did not opt for? He was becoming popular like anything and did not want the success of the film attributed to anybody else.

Kamal's oppurtunism has been discussed enough. Barathiraja had somany problems with Raja due to his ego. Because Barathiraja was only succesful in being one of the best directors while Ilayaraja went on to become the supremo of the Tamil Cine Industry.

Manirathnam had problems with Raja because of G.V. because of Thalabathi's cassette rights

3. REGARDING THE DOCTORATE
----------------------------------------

Please do not give any unwarrented information since this is a healthy discussion. Do not pass your wishes as information and create a flutter.

4. RAJA'S SONGS ARE NOT IN TOP 10
----------------------------------

Raja's songs may not be in top 10. It does not mean his lack of talent. Enough has been discussed in the effect of Sat TVs and lack of good customers.
Today's music obviously relies more on Advertisement than stuff in it.
Even Sivajiganesan does not act in these days. If Claiming Appas or Ajith to have on against Sivaji only because of being marketted well is sensible, then the argument of seeing Ilayaraja as a person of lack of talent is also sensible. If a music director needs the certificate of SunTV and Raj TV to decide his talent, Raja does not need it at all.
Anyhow a flash news. Raja's "Kadhalukku Mariaathai" are leading in all Top 10s. But I am not mentioning this news to show talents. this is not a certificate for him at all.

5. MAJORITY OF ILAYARAJA MOVIES ARE FLOP
----------------------------------------------------------

Again an unwarrented news in the Forum. An incorrect information is worse than no information. It can be best told by a statitician. But we can guess.
Except a very few may be 5 or 6, all hit films of Rajini and Kamal belongs to Ilayaraja. Between 1977 and 1992 almost 95% hit films had Ilayaraja as MD. Even in failure fims he has done his duty well.
Such information if you want to tell, please give us evidence. Your assumbtions and wishes are not facts.

6. ILAYARAJA'S STAMP IN FILMS
----------------------------------------

Definitely Ejamaan and Veera's songs bear Ilayaraja's songs in spite of Rajini's popularity. If the songs of Annamalai, Batcha, Muthu were put for some other film, the success of songs is questionable. But Ejamaan and Veera songs had the class that suits any artists. If you have doubts over these songs, then your views are prejudiced and it is impossible to have a fair argument in this forum.

7. EFFECT OF SAT TVS
---------------------------

This is a redundant topic . It was already discussed enough.

8. COMPARISON OF PARENT MDs
------------------------------------------

Without knowing about a particular MD how can we compare? He may be superior or inferior according to his talents. Also my arguments are not arbitary, they are facts. It is unfair to compare 2 MDs without knowing the full potential of both MDs.

9. ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------

Producers put only cut-outs. But Radios and TVs themselves did not announce that this is the No. 1 song of the year and this in Top 10 themselves. Good songs were identified by people themselves, they were not influenced by medias.

10. KAMAL
-------------

In 80s thru 93 Kamal gave callsheet to producers only after they get the callsheet of Raja. He did not dare to do a film without Raja. My arguement is on that basis. If you do a "vaatham" it is possible to answer. If you do a "Vithandavaatham" it is not possible to defend me. Tell me the % of films hit by Kamal with Ilayaraja after 1976 against without Ilayaraja. It will reveal the fact.

11. RAJINI
------------

Rajini gives 0 % credit to Raja. It is not worth commenting on these words.

TO SRIKKANTH
-------------------

Ofcourse Rajini gave hits with Bose in Manithan. Only after his establishment. Did he dare not to use Raja's services during his early stages. Only for Balachandar films both kamal and Rajini agreed to act without Raja. If you put the ratio of hits with raja against without Raja it will tell you the story.
Kamalis worse than rajini in this case. Rajini atleast proved after his establishment that he can give hit songs without Raja. Kamal was a coward and he left Raja only after his decline. All the movies he had without Raja are after Raja's decline only. I surprise you specified Nammavar.

---------------------------
CONCLUSION
------------------
Every argument is based on facts and not a blind worship of Raja. Why we have to talk blindly about a person if he does not deserve what we are appraising?
Today's younger generation feel that IR is an old man and talking about him is a degradation to themselves. If it were the reason, you are the loser of loving a living Legend. Director Mahendaran in a function said that "The honour Raja got so far is far below what he deserves, many of us do not know that his talents are phenomenal because he lives in our era, we may notice identify as a Genius after his period".
Mahendran himself is a big director and he need not appraise Raja blindly and he knows Raja in every aspect better than us, the people just observing Ilayaraja.

Thanks,
SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN
From: srikanth (@ 36.minneapolis-07.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Mon Jan 5 22:54:10 EST 1998

Hi,
For IR Fans - all the roads lead to Rome...
This is discussion is about IR decline in Fame..
No one talked about his music talents, it is a known fact that it is the best...
Whenever one asks question about IR decline ..
we get an invalid answer,

Why is his popularity (is different from Fame)
down now ?
IR FANS :RAJA IS GREAT, NO ONE CAN MATCH HIS SCORES...(with an angry face) - blind worship

Why he is not doing music today like Ar..
IR FANS ans : Ar is copying...youngsters are spoilt with MTV...

Kamal was cowerd ,Rajini was traitor :
Good joke ---
Kamal became a mega because of IR musc.
Rajini did not give credit to IR...
another good joke...

Producing a film is a team work...
every one has a share in the sucess or failure..
Every one agrees the fact Raja as done a musical revolution...

Why is the Decline....
Why all the directors and Actors avoid him..
this the question , this thread does not talk about IRS creditability...
REMEMBER :
We are NOT discussing about his score...MUSICALLY NO ONE CAN MATCH IR...we are discussing reasons for his decline...

One more thing :
I have come thru MSV era and IR era no one feels he is old ...music has nothing to do with Age..

Does any one know the famous rumor in the industry..
Here it is :
IR was backedup by G.K. Venkatesh...
After G.K.V's death, IR had a decline...

Srikanth
From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.238) on: Tue Jan 6 01:25:45 EST 1998

okay mr.srikanth,
why IR's popularity is down? simple.
THE PEOPLE'S TASTES HAVE CHANGED(OR DECLINED IN MY OPINION).now mind u , iam talking about the people who buy cassettes(mainly youngsters), not just every other person.the advent of MTV has influenced the present day youngster's taste to such an extent that may have helped people like rahman to come up. but it does not mean that IR's compositions are not good any more.iam convinced they are still the best ,after listening to KM and devadai.or put it simply IR's kind of music may not have MARKET VALUE as of now.convinced?

(BTW, if u start giving examples like dharmavathi,mandu etc.then i can give a hundred examples on IR like kanakaangi,latangi etc.so let's not waste time on these kinds of things.)
From: RV (@ 1cust57.max14.san-francisco.ca.ms.uu.net) on: Tue Jan 6 01:45:51 EST 1998

In my teens, I was a theevira fan of IR. I used to argue this way. In my late teens, I became addicted to GR/MSV-TKR. I am reminded of those days when I see several arguments here.

Arg # 1. As Raja contributed a lot to the success of several Rajini, Kamal, Bharathiraja, Balachander movies, they should feel grateful to him and continue to support him.
Extending this argument, AVM should use Sudarsanam as he gave excellent numbers for the movie "Penn" in 1954. That movie, I beleive ran just for the songs.
How ridiculous can you guys get ? Moviemaking is a business. People will use whoever sells best NOW. Should AVM use Sivaji as a hero now since Parasakthi was a big hit ? Why doesnt IR use Malasia Vasu who contributed a lot to his success in the late 70s and early 80s ? or S. Janaki ?

Arg # 2. IR did the music for most of the hit movies in 80s.
The correct stmt is, IR did the music for most of the movies in 80s. That is the true reason for his downfall. He took the route of concentrating on big banners ( AVM, Motherland ), big stars ( Kamal, Rajini ) and big directors ( BharathiRaja, Balachander etc. ) and not working full heartedly on the other movies. There are several exceptions to this e.g. Aan Paavam but in general thats what he tended to do. Anyone remember any song in Kanni Rasi ? Or Kaviyath Thalaivan ? Even a Beethoven cant do justice the number of movies IR undertook. Remember, he was busy in Telugu too during the eighties! If on an average, he did the music for 75 movies per year, and each movie had 4 songs, he had to produce 300 songs per year. How can anyone do it ? He probably produced 100 songs and didnt concentrate on the rest. Out of those 100, maybe 50 became hits. Dont forget the BGM that has to be done for these movies! I dont know why he settled for quantity in those years. It is his decision, of course. At least in the case of Deva, he doesnt know how long he will get movies and when people will get sick of his copying. IR didnt hv any problems of that sort. He should hv preserved himself. Even Bradmanr cant play cricket 365 days a year.

3. Of course, people jumped onto the ARR bandwagon when another talented MD came. Nobody likes a monopoly. With a new MD, you can probably make him spend more time on the movies.

4. Having said all that, IR is one of the greatest MDs ever. His place is safe in the history. I think the coming of ARR is good for IR too because competition will keep IR on his toes.

5. While ARR is a pretty good technician, he is no match to IR - at least, not yet. But he is fresher, has come up with several new ideas and he doesnt take on too many assignments at the same time. He has a long way to go before he catches up with IR. I dont understand this why IR fans feel insecure about ARR and his talents.
From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.238) on: Tue Jan 6 01:49:00 EST 1998

another reason that i can think of is the hype associated with mani ratnam's movies
which mainly account for rahman's popularity.i definitely agree that roja the first of ARR's movies for this director might have been original stuff(not sure abut this also) and good.but that's about it.
after that whatever songs that came out from this director's films occupied top 10 irespective of whether they were hearable or not.
especially iruvar's songs was highly mediocre.now mr.srikanth if u are really a true
lover of music and has done musical compositions
as u claim u can't say no to the above statement about MK's mediocrity.
so this was one reason which kept ARR'S songs up in the market.iam sure if IR closes his eyes,
and composes without any enthusiasm some junk songs for mani's now ,atleast 2 of his songs would be in the top 10.
so that's another reason.ASSOCIATION WITH THE DIRECTOR WHO HAD MARKET VALUE.of course i can't say mani's market value improved after joining with ARR because he was already an established person at the time when he introduced rahman and his market value has only declined since.
vijay
From: SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN (@ client-151-200-125-244.bellatlantic.net) on: Tue Jan 6 08:04:51 EST 1998

SRIKKANTH,
The argument of non-IR fans regarding Raja's decline is that Raja cannot cope up with the changing trend. That is why people have to tell all that stories about Raja. When non-IR fans have a fair opinion about Raja, then this discussion would not have come at all.
There are differences in the the way MDs markets declined. IR's decline is peculiar and it is not a natural transition. But non-IR fans just like that will come and say MSV replaced MKT, IR replaced MSV, ARR replaced IR and so on putting Raja on par and even sometimes below the other MDs.
The cursing of Raja goes to the extent of rating Raja's talents below MDs like DEVA, SIRPI etc. Really it is not worth answering to those guys.
Also while talking about the role of Kamal, Rajini in Raja's decline you should not view from the fan's of actors.
Kamal stated in an interview that first 10 places of Indian Music goes to Raja and rest is not worth listing. Did that change in an year or two? Kamal liked Raja's market rather than his talents. That is why the topic of oppurtunism came. In 1993 he stated that Ilayaraja agreed to dedicate 3 months excusively for MARUDHANAAYAGAM". Did he change the story in the mean time so as to accomadate Mohal Music?
It is impossible to argue against prejudiced views in these sort of DFs. Only thru discussion in person we can express the exact views.
Sathya
From: gopal (@ 1cust43.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Tue Jan 6 11:55:42 EST 1998

RV

Its not that ARRs presence has made IR fans feel insecure! Its the fact that ARR is no match for IR and bringing ARR into like discussions should be avoided.
I ll be back......
From: Sandya Krishna (@ dynamic25.pm01.mv.best.com) on: Tue Jan 6 17:56:00 EST 1998

Just a few unrelated thoughts on the discussion here:

1) I don't know how many of you remember, but there was a kisu kisu in Kumudham (about 3-4 years ago) indicating that both Maniratnam and Balachandar had gone back to Raja, asking him to compose for their films. Raja seems to have gone into some room in his home, locked himself in and told someone to tell Mani and K.B. that he did not wish to see them. (There was more written about how Raja felt betrayed by K.B. and Mani for introducing Rahman.)

2. When it comes to issues of recognition, there are a huge group of people who do not/cannot leave Raja for anything in the world. Directors K.R., Kalanjiyam, R.V.Udhayakumar and Fazil with a long list of others have never really left Raja so far. Moreover, K.R. has gone as far as declaring ARR's music is 'sacharine' (pardon the spelling!) compared to Raja's which is the 'real sugar'..

3. In terms of Kamal and Rajini, you can read any magazine interview in the last 4-5 years, Kamal has repeatedly declared Raja as his 'guru,' 'savior' etc. etc. It seems strange that Kamal could even be remotely accussed of not being faithful to Raja. When it comes to Rajini, considering he is the 'people's choice,' you can never expect him to be vocal about anything; including his support for Raja. Even now, the buzz around town is Raja will most definitely be the music director for Rajini's next film. Rajini is smart in one way, he goes with the 'popular trend' (like with his heroines: Meena, Nagma, Rambha etc.).. so he proceeded on with Deva, ARR and has come back to Raja. Regardless of what Rajini says or does not say, Rajini as an individual never lets go of Raja.......

3)When it comes to advertising, one aspect always remains true.. The fact that advertisers glorify 'youth' and 'youth related matters'.. No wonder when ARR came around, everyone started gloating. When youth is revered, you obviously cannot expect anyone to revere Ilaiyaraja at this point. Moreover, Raja must be feeling the pinch considering communications in and out of India were not as good as it is right now!. If only Raja had had this kind of exposure when he first hit the film scene.. one only wonders!..

4) People who say Raja's music is not as good as it used to be, have to keep one thing in mind. His sons Yuvan and Karthik are now composing in the film industry. No father would like to be competing with his sons. After all, both children are budding musicians and have the urge to learn and succeed in the industry. I still continue to believe that Raja has put his music in the back burner in an effort to see his sons compose good music and succeed in life. Even though both do not currently show signs of being successful heirs to Raja's throne, Raja hopes that he and his music should not stand in their way.

Finally, all points aside, there was a slump in Raja's work for sometime in the early 90s.. meaning only a few songs of the hundreds he composed were impressing fans. Whether Raja fans accept that he was on a slump is a different issue. But this slump along with a huge boom in the communications (television and satellite) in and out of India in the 90s was what made ARR's debut even bigger. This might be just one explanation (of the hundreds we can give) as a cause of Raja's market to fall. People also credit his garvam and his lack of enthusiasm after 20 long years in tamil music to be other reasons.

But surely, Rajini and Kamal and other mega producers/directors leaving him was not the only reason. Even today, if Raja takes up the challenge, he can make other music directors kaal dhoosi-kku samam. But there is something really stopping him.. Is it his sons' entry into film music or is it just his time to retire?.. As always, there are only more questions than answers.

Just a few thoughts..

Sandya..
From: srikanth (@ 67.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Tue Jan 6 19:27:23 EST 1998

HI sandya

You have rightly put and thanks for not brining AR into the scene...
There is something blocking Raja...
What is it?
I dont know what IR Fans going to scream at me.
for this...

I am not a Great AR fan but I take the best.

for Vijay:
(There was a real Jazz score (attempt) in Iruvar,
(no has touched Real-Jazz before AR in TFM)
I mean Real JAZZ....
Regarding Ragas, MSV has touched more ragas than IR..I am sure you might not have heard much of MSV..Tell me few songs of Kalyavasantam by IR.

AR:For a young music director ragas I mentioned earlier are difficult to work with...

THANKS

Srikanth
From: MPR (@ dyn07.iacc-t23.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Tue Jan 6 19:56:06 EST 1998

JAX & Srikanth:

I do agree that Ilayaraaja is not in the position today where he was 5 years back. Yes, this is true, but he controlled the cine industry like anyhting. I don't think any other MD in the past or in future will do that. Only he can do that, because he didn't beg anybody for chances or publicity. He worked himself hard to attain this level (you see, this is not true to other MDs), he didn't get chances to work with big direcors when he entered the field I presume. If you are good at what you do and get every piece of credit for that work, others won't agree. Be humble or just act like you are humble and look at the publicity given by media, that's unbelievable. Now back to our topic:

(I read all these info in different magazines from India Today to Kumudham when I was in India)

Vairamuthu:

Raaja got all the credits for songs and this guy was not at all praised or atleast not upto Raaja level. There comes the problem. He started crying about writing lyrics to the composed tune. He was saying that he will write lyrics according to the situation then the MD can compose tune and add music for that. But IR refused to do that. Because IR has a different theory for composing songs. Then this guy started complaining that IR uses heavy orchestration so the lyrics are not able to listen. But any complaints on today's so-called MDs from this guy, NO, why?. I don't have to explain that because I can hear his 'Jaalra' saththam here in US.

Bharathiraja:

Basically, they don't have any other problems except vairamuthu. Bharathiraja needs vairamuthu badly for his giramiya songs but IR refused to work with vairamuthu.

Balachander:

Hope you guys remember 'Pudhu pudhu arththangal', the movie ran for 100 days all over tamilnadu. I won't say IR is the only reason for the success. But I would say his contribution was more than 50% of that movie. During 100th day celeberation, he didn't invite IR to the function and didn't mention his name at all in that funciton and was trying to convey his direction is the only reason for the hit. IR didn't take it, and what you will do if you are in that position? That's what he did to Balachander. So who is the problem here?

Manirathnam:

He happened to direct a movie for Balachander and had to use other than IR. so he went on with ARR, and stays with ARR.

There are politics behind the scenes, if you want I can tell why Jayalalita and GV promoted ARR. And all of them against this one man, IR. See, still he didn't say anything against anybody. He is there composing music alone with no complaints.

Whatever you say or others say I like to say one thing that he believes in his hard work and he doesn't give a damn about others. I like it.

MPR
From: srikanth (@ 192.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Tue Jan 6 23:52:53 EST 1998

Hi
Mr.Mpr:

One point here no music directors have worked harder than raja to come up!----
All the mds in past and present including sirpi and the gang have struggled very hard to come up...it is not easy for anyone, I dont agree this claim . Have u read the life history of MSV and Ramamurthy....They have suffered a lot to come to the stage..

Mr.Viay: Hey! , There is no need to talk personally about me...
you worte:
"Mr.srikanth if u are really a true
lover of music and has done musical compositions
as u claim..." Belive it or not!, i dont care...
....

The film industry is a bussiness - they do what the public wants...or prefer

We dont wear Bell bottoms now, we wear baggies,
why... Peole's Taste or preference change in span of 20 years...(MTV spoit us with baggies)
(I am goin to make a serious study on MTV inducing AR music into our youngsters)
(** All the young people of tamilnadu have a special connection to see MTV and get addicted towards ARs Mukabula ** )

for producers Creativity, Genius knowledge all comes next...currency is first...
But this will not reduce the Raja's greatness even by a whisker...

The Fact :
There were many misunderstandings going on...
this was one of major cause of IR'S decline..
Was anyone bothered when TMS was wiped out by Raja for personal vengence..
Raja was using prasad delux recording theather,
he was moved overnight and Deva moved in..
Why? --- (L.V. Prasad is traitor, Raja has done so much to him..he did this to raja...)
(Balu sir had problems ,Mano was introduced to replace Balu sir)
(Raja's major demand was to sing and write lyrics
Finally Gangai Amaran had problems with Raja,)
Many things are happening behind...
We fans keep scream at one and another about these things ...Knowing the result.....

I bow myself out if this, I dont want this anymore... I love Raja's score,

Bye..
Srikanth
From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.214) on: Wed Jan 7 00:12:13 EST 1998

mr. srikanth,
our discussion on ragas is limited to the knowledge of the songs we have.IR has composed music for 800 odd films and who knows he might have touched all ragas. the film might have flopped,or because of lack of publicity during the early 80's we might not know several songs.i can ask u whether u can tell me a few songs of MSV in kanakaangi? so, we never really know, do we?who knows someone
later in this discusion forum might mention more songs by IR from such rare or complex ragas .so to summarize my argument

1. i said rahman's music as junk because though there might be a few exceptions like what u have mentioned ,most of the songs by rahman are in the 'pettai rap' style or the 'lovebirds' songs style.

2. regarding JAZZ , i agree rahman has ben trying hard to make his music sound different.
but who gives a damn whether it is jazz or not?
does a common man in the village be expected
to know JAZZ?all he cares is whether the ultimate tune is good or not and whether it is good to hear,that's it.using latangi for a dabban kuthu song like 'rassave chiterembu' and making every section of the audience hum the song is where the greatness lies.
touching the hearts with music of good depth and south indian flavour,that's raja for u.
i don't care whether anyone touches more raagas than IR or not. i do care about how many of his songs touch my heart,and in that aspect more of IR's songs have touched my heart than MSV.
as u can see we can't quantify the performance of an MD in terms of the no. of cassetes,or no. of raags touched etc.does the song make a deep impact on YOU the first time?
if yes then it is a good song for YOU.you are the best judge.just because 10 people like deva's songs better than u and make deva no 1 in the top 10,then u should'nt think that perhaps deva is a better MD.that's what i meant when i said
i do not give a damn about the audience's ratings.i very well digest the fact that IR does not have a high market value as of now and have even attempted to give reasons as to why so in my previous posting.

3. and mr.srikanth u are saying that IR's fans when asked about his market decline start commenting on his ability,creativity etc.and don't come up with a clearcut answer.why?it is because we are provoked into reminding about IR's ability when people like mr.JAX give comments like the one in his point no.4.pl. refer back.mr.JAX says that IR does not occupy any more top 10 slots because his songs are not good any more and AS LONG AS THE SONGS ARE GOOD PEOPLE DO NOT CARE ABOUT
WHO THE MD IS AND SO THEY CAN EVEN LISTEN TO DEVA'S SONGS IF THEY ARE GOOD. i agree with the logic.but if songs like 'adanda idanda' from arunachalam and 'thangath thaamari magale' occupy top slots and if songs like 'naal thorum enthan' from devadai do not occupy top 10 slots am i to assume that the arunachlam song was actually better?give me a BREAK! that's why i say we should not give a damn about these ratings.
i read somewhere(i think rediff on the net) that most of these top 10 slots programmes are a
big farce and producers give money to the SATTV and ask their songs to be played. do u know about this?so the bottomline is listen to what YOU like, never mind if 100 others do not like the song.
vijay
From: JAX (@ chaos.egr.uh.edu) on: Wed Jan 7 00:45:40 EST 1998

Hi!

Nice posts by Srikanth, RV and Sandya! (because I agree with their views!!)

Sathya, MPR:

IR is a great MD. No doubt. However, I do have a problem when you slander other artistes and attribute their successes to IR. Just because IR's music was good doesn't mean that everyone else is untalented.

In recent times one does get the feeling that IR is showing restraint. He used to give a wide variety of music.. melodious (slow) songs as well as loud,catchy songs (singaravelan, pandian). Often he will come up with new,different tunes,sounds (I don't have the knowledge to go into ragas and stuff). I don't see that in his recent songs. Sandya speculates that maybe IR is holding back so that his sons can come up. I hope that is not true.That amounts to cheating the producers who pay him. I hope he is back to full form soon. He needs to work with top actors, directors who will inspire him or at least force him to come up with good stuff!

Other:

Sathya, I think you are anti-Kamal. So I am not going to try to change your views on him. Please see Sandya's post on Kamal. Regarding IR's doctorate, I was there in the audience when IR got it. I am not concocting it or giving wrong information. I said that majority of IR's movies were flops. IR has probably composed music for about 700 movies. I am sure that at least 351 movies were not hits. It is not really IR's fault. Likewise he(or rather you)shouldn't claim that all the credit for hit films should go to IR! I am sure that most TFM fans agree that IR is/was a great MD. The disagreements are mainly because of the way you put down others and that probably is why posts appear ranking IR below everyone!

Unrelated to above debate:

I have found deva's, sirpi's, vidyasagar's...music style to be similar to IR's. I have confused their music (e.g. Karna) to be IR's. But ARR's is distinctly different. Any comments? Sorry if this has already been discussed....
From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.214) on: Wed Jan 7 00:58:04 EST 1998

mr. RV,
i do not understand your statement 'IR should have preserved himself".what, does IR have x kgs of talent that would be exhausted in 20years + x days so that he should have preserved it? composing new tunes has everything to do with imagination and imagination has no limits.
and BTW, who said IR has exhausted?have u heard his latest songs?just because his songs are not in the top 10 that means that they are no good?have u seen the list of forthcomng movies for IR?and IR is supposed to have lost enthusiasm after 20 years and fears that he would be a competetion for his sons,so that's why he composes mediocre songs like 'nal thorum enthan nenjil' from devadai .
vijay
From: Kavalan (@ proxy2.ksc.net.th) on: Wed Jan 7 02:59:10 EST 1998

HI

Why scold the producers and actors for illayarajah's plight. He is even now the greatest. But now he wants his sons to get the chances. For example for Kamal's KK, Karthikrajah is the MD. IR will be more than happy with this. Kamal or rajani is not against IR. Whats wrong in giving new faces a chance? if the director who gave IR his first chance hadn't given him that movie, we would not have IR now. Likewise we got kamal,rajani and others because producers and directors were ready to give chance to new comers. SO there is nothing wrong when producers and directors look for new MD's and actors. Noone is taking IR chances. He is old and he is doing less films.
From: r.ravi (@ m31.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Wed Jan 7 13:06:22 EST 1998

Somebody posted that MSV has touched more ragas than IR. C'mon guys , what if you touched all the racing cars in the world, will you become a ayrton senna ?. I think we can stop talking ragas right now for IR is an authority on Carnatic music too. Subbudu has accepted that , and so does Semmangudi. Hence the arg that he touched more, he touched less must be avoided, as touching is not important , how you utilise that is what matters.
From: Ravi_again (@ m31.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Wed Jan 7 13:10:15 EST 1998

Moreover comparing Raja with Others is like comparing Beethoven with people like Yanni and the like ( They have good market value now !!!!).Hope you get the point.
From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Wed Jan 7 14:12:08 EST 1998

vijay:

If you really beleive that someone can produce approx 300 great songs a year apart from doing BGM, his financial worries, manage his family etc., then you are welcome to your beliefs. I am not even going to attempt to prove that there is something called "overwork" and it affects the quality of your work. I cant waste my time arguing about the obvious. This is true of not just creativity in music, but creativity in anything. You just hv to look at V.Anand - how he is playing in the world championship after a month of top quality chess.

If the intention of your posting is not just argue that IR is a great musician but also that IR is superman who doesnt feel tiredness, staleness etc., then my response is just ";-)"
From: Shivaa (@ rosrel1.hp.com) on: Wed Jan 7 15:12:15 EST 1998

Oooh! A very hot discussion in progress. Hi I'm new to this page and am happy to find likeminded people here. I'm a die hard fan of ARR... now. But I was a die hard fan of IR, MSV too. I think I could safely say I love good music. MSV realised the people's penchant for good and meaningful lyrics and brought their best out by his music. IR identified the need of the next generation to hear folk and fancy music fusion. He filled the void. ARR identified the need of the present generation to keep up with the rest of the world in contemporary music without having to grope for lyrics. My view is that they are three diff eras. IR may come back but then it will be a totally diff era with something new to offer to the music lovers. Or someone new may come along the way and give the people what they want to hear.
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Wed Jan 7 15:34:13 EST 1998

Warning: This is a digression.

JAX wrote that sirpi, vishyAsAgar, dhEvA et al sound similar
to IR. I disagree. dhEvA sometimes does but he has his own identity.
In fact ennaith thAlAtta varuvALO in kAdhalukku mariyAdhai sounds
more dhEvA-like to me that IR-like. sirpi started out good but
wanted out to create his own stamp and now sounds just junk. No
way is vidhyAsAgar is like anyone else. He has very good
classicism unique to himself. The few people who sound very much
like IR are murAri (he did one movie starring kArthik - it
had two great songs which I cant recollect now), bAlabhArathi.
From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.214) on: Wed Jan 7 16:31:14 EST 1998

well,sirpi started out sounding more like IR,
u can hear 'kannathula vai' from captain which sounds similiar to 'raasave chiterumbu' as an example.people like deva and sirpi have now various sources other than IR to copy and that is the reason for their style sounding different from IR these days,
and it is not as if they have started becoming creative all of a sudden. as for IR sounding like deva in "ennai thalaata" ,this is an illusion.since deva churns out a lot of trash with hariharan these days and since this is IR's first song with hariharan,we are immediately reminded of only deva when we listen to any hariharan song.deva's formula-use hariharan atleast in one song in every film to keep up the cassette sales.

and mr.RV i firmly beleive that IR can never become stale or tired even if he composes for 30 years.i would rather put it as a lack of enthusiasm for IR in TFM these days which arises from various factors like his sons coming up,he himself having touched the peak by composing a symphony in london,etc.he is also
pissed offf when people come up with the same old love stories and ask him to compose new tunes.he himself has said that many times.whenever a new kind of film like avathaaram.devadai or guru comes up he has brought in freshness in music.as u can see from this discussion forum almost all of the people who have listened to guru have been surprised at how this guy can sound so different even after 25 years.so it is not like he has ran out of stock or imagination as u think.the 'veri' as i would like to put it is very less in him than it was in the early eighties when he was out to prove a point orttwo. but who knows with so many forthcoming films from IR,we never know....
vijay
vijay
From: MPR (@ dyn07.iacc-t23.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Wed Jan 7 18:54:44 EST 1998

(In the following message, sentences in Ilatics are quoted by the other netter)

Srikanth:
All the mds in past and present including sirpi and the gang have struggled very hard to come up ...

Agreed. I'm taking back what I said about getting chances for composing music in TF from my previous posting. It is a well known fact that everybody has to try hard to survive in the field. What I meant in my message was usually if you compose music for movies, you will end up your career there itself, no extra achivements apart from that, and also I was talking about the composing speed and style. These are the things I said (didn't say explicitly, though :) )he worked hard and earned. Why nobody has done it before or even today?

Because athukellam nyanam venum nyanam venum doi (a song from alaigal oivathilai, no offense meant)... !!!

Raja was using prasad delux recording theather,
he was moved overnight and Deva moved in..
Why? --- (L.V. Prasad is traitor, Raja has done so much to him..he did this to raja...)

Is this a fact? Come on, without knowing the fact how can you say it as a fact? Here is the fact:

Ilayaraaja was not moved, he moved out himself from Prasad theater. Why? Answer -- Five years ago, before ARR entered the field, Jayalalitha was the CM. The TN government planned to release a movie against alcoholism. GV produced the movie on behalf of the government and, they chose Ilayaraaja was the MD. The grand padath thuvakka vizhA, Prasad theater-il nadanthathu. Here comes the main part. Ilayaraaja who agreed to work for that movie arrived the entrance in his car. Security guards stopped him and told him only Jayalalitha could drive the car inside the theater and asked him to get down and walk to the venue. Ilayaraaja asked his driver to drive back home. They, the organizers, came to know that IR came and already left. Then immediately they called MSV and asked him to compose for that movie. In that function, GV addressed to the public and critized IR like "sarvAthikarAma nadanthu kollum music directorgallukku pAdam karpikka vEndum". (pAvam GV sir, yAru sarvAthikarAmA nadanthukkitaagannu kooda theriyala. ellAm money, power panra vElai. innoru kAranamum irukku, i don't want to mention it here). At that time, Mani was looking for some new MD and found ARR. Then whoever wanted to keep IR down, went to ARR and Jayalalitha was supporting ARR by giving him chances to compose theme music for Nehru stadium, and they were romba nerukkam, still they are i guess. Ilayaraaja happened to work for AVM and he moved to AVM theater.

I know you are not going to discuss anymore, but these are not only my thougts but also facts. I have a question for you, I will contact you soon or will write in appropriate threads.

MPR
From: kirubakaran (@ slipper.watcom.on.ca) on: Wed Jan 7 21:14:31 EST 1998

Guys,
I am not that much knowledgeable in music or Tamil Film industry goings-on. But would like to share a few points here -

1) When Ilayaraja entered Tamil Film World there were a lot of opinions/propaganda going against him as well his music content. He has prevailed over all this and I think it is purely because of his talents. Contrast this with Music Directors now who are "promoted' by individuals/establisments.

2) I dont know who is at fault but Ilayaraja should team up with good Lyricist if the song has to be successful. Vairamuthu is a great guy and it is a pity they are not working together.

3) Same as #2 but for movie directors.

But I think IR grew to be too big for anybody's liking in the industry. Our movie industry is not necessarily a place where people are fair and straightforward.

4) One should not forget IR also contributed to the "definition" of Tamil Music which the current music directors are able to follow/build up on. This is a very important contribution that should not be overlooked. IR himself gave credit for MSV for doing the same earlier.

5) I think ARR is good as well. He has brought some novelty into the field. I am not sure why IR did not follow on some of his westernised tunes. But his Music smells of South Indian/Tamil Flavor and I love it for that reason. To me it is nostalgic. ARR sounds pretty anonymous sometimes.

IR is great. It doesn't matter even if he quits the music world. But what is disappointing is some character assasination that goes on now with the aim of discrediting his music.

So my point is call him egoistic whatever but do not disparage his contribution. This every professional deserves whatever field he is in.

Regards,
- kiru
From: MSK (@ dhcp-877019741.qualcomm.com) on: Wed Jan 7 23:47:17 EST 1998

What i am unable to understand is everyone says IR is still Very good, in fact "The " best of all - Even ARR's fans agree that! . Everyone agrees
that it's unfair to compare IR with ARR/Deva and the rest , and that Deva leads the piracy team. Everyone agrees all this but no-one can figure out why IR stands below in today's ratings (except the latest Fazil hit) - a few months , a year or so is OK. But this trend has been for the last few years. ( ever since the Rajini starrer " Veera ") - I still feel that IR's songs even today have the freshness , orchestration and variety that he was known for. Can anyone give reasons for this WITHOUT , PLEASE without , praising/bashing IR, Bashing ARR , Deva and others - Please -
I have discussed this with many of my friends and the few who expressed a balanced view have this opinion : The atmosphere back home is such that people today don't have the time to care abt the originality , creativity of the song - all they need is a tune to hum for a few days or a week may be - and they are ready to move on - IR's music does'nt fall in this category probably - Also one of my friends even said this - What if Deva copies- it's good to listen his songs . Also people wanted a change . I felt a bit convinced- But not fully - If anyone can refute this view or support this view I would love to hear from them - But please present a balanced view. Thanks .
From: shivaa (@ rosrel1.hp.com) on: Thu Jan 8 13:21:48 EST 1998

Hi MSK !

I'm afraid that if you went a few quotes back, you would find mine where I partially support your friends' view. Also, I beg to differ with you in one point of yours where you wouldn't want to compare IR's music with anybody else's while stating reasons for the decline of his music appeal. Well, there are no absolute terms by which one can measure music appeal, are there ? It's highly relative. If a MD's music no longer sounds good, it doesn't mean it is bad. It is simply 'coz there's some other music which sounds better. Atleast this is true of MDs like IR, ARR, MSV who cannot give bad music. SO, it becomes unavoidable that when you are discussing about a certain MD's music appeal you got to bring up the others too. Now, IR is one of the very best MDs but not one of the best marketers/promoters of his music. One has to understand the current trend and then give people what they want to hear. The MDs who are successful now are the ones who do this by all means - begging, borrowing or stealing or by simply being ORIGINAL.
From: MPR (@ dyn07.iacc-t23.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Thu Jan 8 17:01:55 EST 1998

Written by Krishna in Tamil thirai malai:

According to Film News
Anandhan, Raja has not had a single loss in the last three years, going by the
cassette sales... He is still in the top 2 when it comes to cassette sales... This
shows the kind of market share he has established over the years... The only
other person I can think of, who has a market share that will support him for
sometime even with slightly dismal products, is probably Microsoft's Bill Gates...
;)

I don't know howfar this is true !!!
From: Shashi (@ deptvass-bh.va.gov) on: Thu Jan 8 18:21:02 EST 1998

Hi TFMers!

A good discussion overall by everybody who has contributed to this thread.

I can see some truth among the views expressed by the hardcore Raja fans and the not so harcore fans as well.

I would like to bring up another aspect of ups and downs in market value of a MD.

For anything in life "too much of a good thing can be bad". Now one may argue as to what is good or bad but overall what I am trying to say is "anything in excess can become boring".

This is especially true in art. For example, if you had visited the Smithsonian art collection (or any other large art museum for that matter) like any other average tourist--i.e., tried to rush thru the museum in about half a day, you would have felt exhausted firstly. Secondly, the joy you felt when you walked into the first room of paintings slowly wanes and towards the end you simply watch the paintings for the sake of completion. Remember these are masterpeices!! And, even they get to be boring! Some people claim they never grow tired of something they truly love and infact there may a few people among us who are born that way, but majority of them are not. In other words if people had a choice they are bound to choose. In fact examples like you never get tired of breathing, eating etc.. dont stand because if you had an alternative to breathing!? people will try it!! So this is atleast one reason why people were ready to try other MD's other than Raja.

Now the issue of his market value being down is more complex.

Here I have to agree with Srikanth in that all that the producer is interested is the MONEY. Remember the average tamil cinema is not made for any of you guys(including myself). It is made for the economically weaker section of the population (ironic)--you know who I am talking about--this is where the main cash collection occurs. So, there is compromise at every point of film-making so as to increase the business value and this decreases the artistic/creativity value. Can both co-exist? Oh Yes, most definitely! but there needs to be an increased awareness among the movie-goers and this is where the problem lies. Not to say we have not made any progress but truly it is dismal. If truly we are art lovers Satyajit Ray should have been no1 at the box office, right?
So when we are ready to accept that all movies are not art but most of the times they are business then the taste of the average guy has to be considered.

Here is precisely where I am amazed at Raja. In fact according to me I find it hard to believe that Raja managed to even stay on top for such a long time. I am saying this as a Raja fanatic!!. Why? Because, Raja's style of composition is complex! Especially when he began his entry into the field his compositions were entirely different, original and truly unpredictable. This is one other IMPORTANT REQUISITES OF ANY NEW ARTIST. For example, all very sucessfull artists have been drastically different from their predecesors. Remeber, NALINIKANTH could never make it big like RAJINIKANTH.

What amazed me was that Raja gave difficult tunes but for commercial value always glazed it with sugar and tried to make it catchy when he was entering the field. And as you all know very well, the really complex yet beautiful compositions never really were a big hit--but the more banal stuff clicked more readily. Hidden in these more simpler looking tunes were numerous musical subtilities which are satisfying to a very musically oriented person, but to a common person the high points of the song are quite different. In ARR's case one can see quite the opposite. The majority of the tunes/composition themselves are simple and quite easily attract the common masses. Another technique (I dont want to use the word trick) adopted by ARR is to base his tunes similar to the ones previously composed yet different enough to look like new compositions. This works well with the common masses because when you hear a tune which is based on an older tune it is easy for the mind to register it and the chances of it staying in the mind for the next couple of hours is high. Obviously there is a down side to this! If your tune resembles a previous tune too much then you would sound repetitive, and could be labelled a copier! with not much imagination etc. To be comercially sucessfull you should know the right balance!!

Now, remember these techniques are adopted to make maximum business impact and hence creativity takes a back seat.

Another important point which people miss to mention is FAMILIARITY OF A PARTICULAR MUSIC DIRECTORS GRAMMER OF COMPOSITION. What do I mean by this? When I said new successfull artists usually are different from their older counterparts--this is where there are different. Yes, the GRAMMER. Simply said this is called the MD's style of composition. If you analyze songs then you can see the grammer of a particular MD. The way the song starts, how it leads to the first line (pallavi); how long the pallavi is; is the pallavi repeated; how are the interludes constructed--their length, complexity, do they digress from the original scale/raga; the use of instruments, voices as instruments, rythm variations; how the interlude leeds to the anupallavi (2nd stanza); how differently is this constructed than the pallavi; is there variations in the length of the lines, supporting instruments during these lines etc, etc....so on and so forth. This kind of analysis is complex but everybody does this subconciously to some extent. The more musically minded/oriented people do this to a greater extent. This is what I meant before when I said a number of sublities in Raja's music is hard to pick up by a common listener.
Now, the more you listen to a particular MD and the more you tune yourself to his music, the more you will become adapted to hearing this kind of music. This means that just like a person being comfortable with an 'old shoe' than a 'brand new one' a person feels a strange sense of security with the kind of music they are adapted to. This is not to say that they do not expect new music! PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSE THIS ISSUE. The music lover still wants new music with creativity but WITHIN A SET GRAMMER. Examples of new grammer are songs which have just one stanza, songs with 2 lines followed by lots of music and ends with 2 more lines, songs which do not have any instruments at all.. etc....; Netru vandha kaatru... Karthik raja's song is a good example where there are numerous 2 line stanza's but the pallavi, anupallavi, charanam, etc resemble each other.

Having said all this let us analyze why Raja's value declined in the market.

First Raja was giving music which was complex to start with but since his simpler more catchy songs clicked he became popular. Slowly, he tried to move away from very simple tunes and started using complex raga's (this is what I like about him) even for simplistic looking songs--some people may argue he was trying to elevate the taste of the common audience; some others would claim he took classical music to the common people (I am one of them). However, this venture could have been risky and could have led to his unpopularity?! We all appreciate "Macchi mannaru.... as an excellent use of Mayamalagowlai" but was the song popular among the Rickshawpullers? See what I mean. Personally I rather have such creativity but I can say this only because I am looking at the artistic side of music.
Another factor that happened was that Raja tries really hard not to sound repetitive. Again as I mentioned, the cost you pay for doing such a thing is that the new songs take some time to sink in your mind. Every new song which he comes up with has to be based on a set of notes & hence by basic definition is somewhat repetitive, but the clever way he juggles the notes creates a feeling of newness in his songs. Personally I would again favour this as this is more creative but again the producers who are looking at the sales want the opposite. A solution to this problem is to frequently repeat a new song on TV, cable/sat-tv/ ads/ campaigns etc etc... which sadly instead of Raja's producers the ARR, Deva group producers seem to be doing well.

An alternate way to look at Raja's declining market value is to look at the rising market value of ARR, Deva etc.
Well first Deva will never achieve the same degree of approval from music lovers as Raja or ARR for that matter. Why? He is the true NALINIKANTH of music. When he entered the field his music Grammer was based on Raja's Grammer. Now it is based on ARR's grammer and sometimes a mix of the too. But as I mentioned before why would somebody listen to you if you sounded like somebody when they can listen to that somebody directly? Still he succeeded commercially. Why? Because his tunes are simpler--the common man can repeat his tunes easier--(this is disputable--but I strongly believe so) and his tunes are based on famous previous tunes that are catchy (Kandha sashti kavacham etc) and penetrates the brain easily like a computer virus--but beware it can damage the hardware permanently!!?!**If I have to evaluate his creativity--minimal but commercial value--great.

ARR is truly different. He came in with a different musical grammer and he should be welcomed for that matter alone. Guys, let me tell you something.--this is not easy ( I compose myself and I can tell from my personal experience). On the other hand he is so tied down by the producers that he has to include lots of Junk! in his music. He was like a Picasso in a room full of Van Gogh's( refering to Raja) and people should appreciate him for that reason. But his technique of repeating himself (although he uses his grammer-not borrowed) is concerning to a true music lover, because this curtails creativity. So I'll have to evaluate his creativity as moderate (there may be great potential still) and commercial value as good.
As a personal comment I like some of his less well known songs which actually are more complex and this just increases my belief that the more complex the song is it is likely to fail commercially. Somebody had mentioned in another thread about Iruvar songs being a failure. Personally I would have to agree with Srikanth (may be because we both compose music) that they were really very creative. Just listen to the interludes in Narumugaye... He has used guitar as a classical instrument--if anyone has heard Vishwa Mohan Bhatt (a grammy winner 2 years ago) he plays the Hindustani music on the guitar but uses it like a Hawaian guitar. I guess, this was the source of inspiration for ARR to use this Mohan Veena (as he calls it) in the interlude so beautifully. It is easy for anyone to say he has lifted Vish's tune but truly this was not a copy but he has used it in his own peculiar grammer and this must be commended.

I still have hope that once ARR's position is more established and as he developes more self confidence he may not sway to the wishes of the producers and will truly give good alternative music and cut down on a lot of junk. Untill then just sample his best songs and listen to them.

As for Raja, he will always remain close to my heart. He truly is the most creative in tamil film industry currently and quite rightly commercially declining. This should really be no surprise! Hridayanath Mangeshkar the youngest of the Mangeshkars was never a commercial success but truly he is immensely creative!!

Comments welcome.

Shashi
From: MSK (@ dhcp-877019741.qualcomm.com) on: Thu Jan 8 19:15:00 EST 1998

Shashi ,I think u r probably right . I like this discussion as it makes me feel better that there are a lot of TFM fans out there who still believe in good , original music and who have the same kind of regrets as to the current trends.

BTW ,I was more than surprised to see "Kaathalukku mariyaathai" songs at #2 in the top ten - Maybe ARR /Deva are out taking a vacation.I guess it's the timing rather than the song itself .? Any pointers .? I guess this is the first time that an IR song is at the top spot in the last few years.??? Right.??
From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.214) on: Thu Jan 8 20:43:24 EST 1998

no,devadai,poonjolai,punniyavathi,raman abdullah are some of the other films that have benn in the top 10 ,some of them having a very brief stay in the top.
vijay
From: Krishna (@ inet20.us.oracle.com) on: Thu Jan 8 22:02:01 EST 1998

I skimmed through this particular discussion, since I heard that I was quoted here... The ONLY reason, in my opinion, why Raja's popularity is on the wane is Raja himself. Personally I'm a big fan of Raja's music but not his attitude... When a person becomes that big, the first thing one should learn is to be modest... And hearing so many things about Raja makes me feel that this is where Raja has failed... not in his music...
From: Krishna (@ ppp-max2-152.grin.net) on: Fri Jan 9 03:46:34 EST 1998

Me again... Read thru some more in this thread...

Some interesting points:

Srikanth has mentioned that MSV has touched more
ragas than Illayaraja... Well, that might be true... But composing 100 songs in the same ragam and making them sound different is lot more difficult than composing 100 songs in totally different ragams...

Of the postings I read, I tend to agree more with Sashi...

Raja is very creative and he is very fast too... No wonder ARR himself referred to Raja as the Lion in an interview with some magazine (I think it was the Stardust, I don't remember)...

ARR has a different approach... according to the instrumentalists who work for him... He composes a tune listens to it and reworks on it many times... According to Srinivasmurthy, assistant director to Rahman, they too 50 audio negatives for "Saiyaain yaain rae" from Daud, a Hindi movie... That's a lot of hard work to make one's music sound different...

And, I wouldn't call ARR not creative and repetitive... I have seen him play the raga Ramapriya, in Doordharshan when he was still Dilip, in a way I haven't heard before... That small piece, if you a get a chance to listen to, will tell you the creativity in him... The ONLY problem as Sashi rightly mentioned, is the monetary aspects...

In my opinion, the same world which rejected lots of extremely complex but wonderful tunes by Raja, is resticting Rahman to repetitive stuff... Still his creativity shows out in many songs...

Listen to Flamengo guitar piece in "July Maadham vandhaal", Mohana Veena piece in "Narumugaiyae", or the string work in the second interlude of "Tanha Tanha" from Rangeela (Hindi movie)...

And I wouldn't say that he copies... But, as Sivamani the drummer, says people get inspired and they tend to improvise from a existing song...

And sometimes producers or directors just come up and say just rework on this particular song and give me a new song, since the scene is similar... Well, what can anyone do about that... With all these kind of restrictions, if a person can make it to the Top level he is a great Music director, be it Raja, Rahman or even Deva... OH!!! not to forget two of my favourites in recent times Vidhyasagar and Karthik Raja...

Krish
From: Dev Mannemela (@ tide23.microsoft.com) on: Fri Jan 9 13:58:45 EST 1998

Sashi,

About the Mohan Veena in Narumugaye, Vishwa Mohan Bhatt , IIRC, played it for ARR. (along with Vikku Vinayakram on Ghatam). Also, Bhatt himself refers to his instrument as Mohan Veena.

Whatever the commercial success of Iruvar might be, it was a gem of an album (Narumugaye and Hello Mr.Edhirkatchi are enough for me to rate it so high..)
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Fri Jan 9 15:31:32 EST 1998

Guys,

A great thread. Very informative.

IMO Raja was declining much before Rahman came into the picture. In fact starting from 1989 he
was dishing out junks after junks but was
surviving due to the TINA(there is no alternative)
factor.

People were simply tired of Raja's grammer. Raja
for all creativity and immense talent is still
human. There is a limit to one's creativity.

Rahman came at the right time and brought a welcome change to TFM. But he soon faded out and
I find his new work distinctly inferior to his
initial works. Perhaps his talent is quite limited.

One final note: I thought Raja was forgotten by
TFM fans till I visited this site. While I appreciate their enthusiam and loyalty I can't help feeling a bit sarcastic and cynic towards
their optimism. Raja is gone from TFM and for
ever. He had his time and was great in that.
No point hero worshiping him now.
From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.214) on: Fri Jan 9 16:22:11 EST 1998

i beg to differ from ravi krishna.raja never declined from 1989 as ravi claims.in fact some of his best came after 1989.dalapathi, a mani ratnam movie with rakamma was a rage.anjali in 1990 set a new trend in mixing western music with TFM.other gems include enraasavin manasile,chatriyan,veera,valli,idhayam,chinnagounder,meera......,now tell me did raja decline
at all?and does all these songs sound like junk to us?NO. it was raja's MARKET VALUE that declined and that too only from 1994,i would say.
vijay
From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.214) on: Fri Jan 9 16:23:53 EST 1998

i beg to differ from ravi krishna.raja never declined from 1989 as ravi claims.in fact some of his best came after 1989.dalapathi, a mani ratnam movie with rakamma was a rage.anjali in 1990 set a new trend in mixing western music with TFM.other gems include enraasavin manasile,chatriyan,veera,valli,idhayam,chinnagounder,meera......,now tell me did raja decline
at all?and does all these songs sound like junk to us?NO. it was raja's MARKET VALUE that declined and that too only from 1994,i would say.
vijay
From: Ravi Krishna (@ starwars.informix.com) on: Fri Jan 9 20:56:57 EST 1998

Mr Vijay,
I still maintain that Raja started declining around 1989. I personally do not enjoy his post
1989 songs as much as his earlier. There may be
one or two good songs now and then but majority
(over 80%) of his songs after 1989 were junk,
atleast for me.

Recently I heard the songs of Devadai , upon recommendation from this web site.The songs were
really disappointing.
From: RAJAN (@ proxy-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net) on: Fri Jan 9 23:12:18 EST 1998

Ravi krishna:
Pl. consult the doctor:))))
From: gopal (@ 1cust158.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Sat Jan 10 01:07:34 EST 1998

Dear Ravi Krishna

Thanx for the enlightenment!! You are right!! Raja is a total crap from 89. In fact, even before that! I would say from 76!! I was really disappointed after hearing Devadhai! What a crap! He is a fit for nothing music dir. and i dont know why someone should hero-worship him! You appear in this DF once every thanksgiving i presume, yet, you blow sensibly!! Keep it up!
If time permits, pls visit http://www.geocities.com/vienna/strasse/3524 and
http://www.geocities.com/paris/rue/4424 !!

OK! When did you leave TamilNadu for good? 1989?
Ever since you left, Raja has declined :)

Rajan, give the correct address!!
From: SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN (@ client-151-200-126-27.bellatlantic.net) on: Sat Jan 10 05:12:28 EST 1998

Probably it is his personal opinion, and we need not bother about groundless arguments.

Sathya
From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.219) on: Sat Jan 10 14:17:53 EST 1998

mr.ravi krishna,
since it is your personal opinion,i do not wish to say anything against it.but in order to provide a basis perhaps for your argument ,we can take the ratio (good songs or decent songs composed by IR)/ (no.of total songs composed) and evaluate it over equal time periods say 1975-1980,
1981-1986 and so on until now.u might find the raio to be exactly the same if not more.if u are hearing less
no. of good songs then u should understand that he is composing for less no. of films now.again
regarding the numerator,what a 'good' song is varies from person to person.if u feel that all the songs in devadai were junk,then we can't argue
at all.u can say 'melody is in the listener's ear'
perhaps, akin to 'beauty is in the beholder's eye'.
so taste varies from person to person.
From: MSK (@ dhcp-877019741.qualcomm.com) on: Sat Jan 10 14:34:27 EST 1998

If someone says Devadhai songs are dissappointing,
All i could say is "Excellent taste " !. BTW, for people who don't like devadhai songs , or say they were disappointing, there are excellent songs in all the Deva/ARR movies - Of which "Ataaanda ithaanda" , "Pettai rap" , "Cellphone mani pol " etc ..are worth a special mention . Pls buy these CD's if u have'nt already - Also the BGM in all Deva movies is simply superb - One can never miss them -Pls enjoy and let us know TFM fans if we have missed any of those masterpieces.

BTW, who is this Ilayaraaja, Did he compose any good songs after "Annakili".?? Strange !!!
From: MPR (@ hindsight.nodak.edu) on: Sat Jan 10 14:40:12 EST 1998

Gopal:

Leave him alone. If I am not mistaken, Ravi Krishna was brought up in Delhi not in Tamilnadu. That's why sometime back here, in our DF he said he doesn't like Ilayaraaja's manvaasani songs much. One should be aware of tamil culture and tamil folk songs to appreciate IR's songs better. I guess he doesn't have much exposure to them. So there is no point in blaming him. But I'm sure he missed lot of Ilayaraaja's unforgettable gramiya songs.
From: T.Madhan (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Sun Jan 11 10:33:46 EST 1998

Dear Ravi KRishna,

Maybe you wouldn't like the following IR songs also -

1.All songs from " MOGHA MUL"

2. All songs from " KOVIL PURAA"

3.All songs from " SALANGAI OLI "

4.All songs from " NAADODO THENDRAL ", " MUDHAL MARIYAADHAI "

5. " Semboovey poovey " from SIRAI CHAALAI. and " YENNULEY YENNULEY " from Valli.

Maybe you would have liked IR's music if he had given carbon copies of MTV music pieces !!

AAAAHAAA !! this is what I call vintage taste for good music !!

KEEP IT UP !!
From: easwaran hariharan (@ proxy-lvl2.net.bms.com) on: Mon Jan 12 15:44:32 EST 1998

Hai guys,
It is very good discussion and I could join only
now.

1. IR music after 90 is as good as his 80's hits/ No IR music after 90 is crap

IR did produce lot of good music. Songs in films like chemburthi, all kamal films ( singaravelan to sathi leelavathi), thalapathi, veera, valli, I love india and much more).
But they are only the fraction of movies he scored in this period, and the rest are crap. Some of them are not even worth of listening for once( songs in udan pirappu, senthamil selvan(with MSV),
ullaipalli, lot of vijayakanth, satyaraj movies in this period), and most of them are in the OK category. Defintely his music has come down or listeners got bored of his grammer(thanks shashi).

2. IR was not commercially successful after roja.

Though his music has come down considerably, he was the no 1 MD up to 1994, bcos of no other alternative factor. As per super hit muqabala, in 1994 he was way ahead of deva and ARR ( only 2 films he did in that year) in terms of hit songs. So definitely he was commercially successful up to 1994, at least in terms of hit songs. But what went wrong afterwards?. IMO, it is the one soundtrack, which did the damage more than what everyone tried all these days to dethrone him.
It is known as aasai. Not only did aasai give deva hope of the bright future, it gave much needed confidence to the people in TFM to look away from IR for songs. There is no doubt that from roja days, ARR was ruling the charts, but he was doing only few films, and he is still reluctant to carry the burden of scoring more than 5 films per year.
With another hit Karna with different MD, finally TFM freed itself from IR after 20 years. IR is still alive and scores about 20 films per year, but sadly even some of his good songs ( as per his 90's standard) could not fight against songs from deva, vidyasagar and ARR for last 3 years. I think, his downfall has definitely happened after 1994.

3. Did anti IR gang in TFM play any role in his downfall?

To some extent,yes.They were waiting for right oppurtunity and they used it. But in my opinion it is IR who was the main reason for that. Though I do not want to create a flame, to some extent IR mistreated directors and producers very badly.(I do not want to go about
Lyricists, they literally licked IR feet). Most of the people worked with IR, parted him with licking the wounds on their self pride(if they had any), and people with no self pride stayed with him praising him to god's level. Did not we hear the same story on some political figure some time back?. Even in 80's most of them would have walked away from IR, if they had any alternative. IMO, kamal has been very loyal To IR even now. But it wont surprises me, bcos he is one among the very few people, bold enough to say no to a IR tune. I strongly
Believe that the work relationship IR had with directors in his time
Were completely unbalanced, and no one is going to feel comfortable in
That kind of atmosphere. You can not say the same thing about MSV or ARR.

4. Why IR is not doing any big films?
First of all most of them are not willing to take him anymore and if
They are,like Mani tried for Iruvar, IR has no time to take those.
Hey he had all time to score music for films like poomani,
Vasuki and other craps. Either he wants to revenge them or he is
afraid of doing any big films. It is far safer to do small films.

5. What we can expect from IR in future?
As for me, he is finished almost.
If he is scoring music, just to make money, than it is better for him and for us, if he changes his style and mingle with current trend. If he is doing this to fulfill his musical ambitions, he should take very few but good assignments and treat us with his musical Genius.
It is going to be very painful to see IR going out of TFM, but just like the death, it is inevitable. Either he is going to shut down
His doors one fine day morning, or may be forced to do so, which I think is going To happen some time. I think it is better for him, if he completely ignores Film world, and try to do something to gain international attention, which he completely deserves. Hey we know IR very well, and Until some miracle happens, he is not going to do this. He will keep On accepting mediocre films and embarrass himself and fans like us.

A small digression. In TFM both IR and sivaji ganesan are the two people, who have lot common to say. Bot are extremely talented, way ahead in their respective fields, past, present and even future. But both don't know How to express their god given talent in a proper way, and ended up seeing people with less talented walk away with lot of accolades and prizes. Both at the end of their magnificent career, created their share of Ever lasting masterpieces, but left lot of mediocre stuff, which Will ultimately question their quest for greatness.

I can't avoid saying this. IF Arr were talented like IR, I could only imagine where he would be now?.

E.hari
From: MSK (@ dhcp-877019741.qualcomm.com) on: Fri Jan 16 00:55:57 EST 1998

Eashwaran.,

I do not agree that IR's TFM career is over. He is going to prove u skeptics wrong by giving more hits this year than ARR and Deva and the rest of the pirate gangs. Kathalakku mariyathai is just the beginning ... Watch out ..

MSK
From: MADHAN (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Mon Jan 19 11:02:44 EST 1998

Dear Sathya,

I have a few names to add to your list of those who have benefitted immensely from ILAYARAAJA.

It so happened that I had to do my B.Sc in Hyderabad and I had to watch Telugu movies and listen to telugu film music as well -

Believe it or not, but for IR, the following would have crashed and gone into oblivion in the Telugu film industry as well :

1. CHIRANJEEVI - ask any fan of this actor in A.P, about his biggest hits, they will mention names of movies with music mostly by IR. In fact Chiranjeevi's stardom took a nosedive after IR stopped composing music for his movies.

2. NAGARJUNA - you cannot come across an actor more expressionless than this person - "GEETAANJALI " and " SHIVAA" both were mega hits in A.P., only because of IR. In fact, GEETHANJALI gave Mani Ratnam the good name in Telugu - the credit should go to IR.

3.VENKATESH - another hopeless actor, his big hits during the late 80s and early nineties had IR as the MD.

4. BALAKRISHNA - the less I write about this wooden face the better - his successful movies during the late eighties had IR as the MD and unfortunately IR HAS GIVEN SOME SCINTILLATING MUSIC FOR ACTORS LIKE THIS GUY - A REAL WASTE OF HIS GENIUS.

Like this, I can give you an entire list.

Definitely, Raaja ruled liked a King, an Emperor, and will continue to do so -

Ilayaraaja's musical output is like Albert Einstein's ETHER - whether a few like it or not, its presence and existence cannot be questioned or denied .

Just like a fountain of water or nectar from " Amudha Surabhi " if utilised properly benefits those drinking it, if IR is allowed to give vent to his creativity in proper ways by our people , it is we who are going to be benefitted - otherwise, all the NECTAR of music would go down the drain.

It is better that IR doesn't accept junk movies and waste his genius. Whether his market has declined or not, he has been, will be a GENIUS beyond compare !!

A SIMPLE EXAMPLE TO SPEAK IN SUPPORT OF ILAYARAAJA.

THERE ARE A LOT OF CHANDRASWAMIS, OSHO RAJNEESH, PREMANANDAS - CAN YOU COMPARE ANY ONE OF THESE WITH THE CREATOR.

CAN AN ARGON GAS FILLED TUBELIGHT IN YOUR READING ROOM MATCH THE BRILLIANCE OF THE SUN?

CAN A GLASS OF PEPSI OR COKE EQUAL THE REJUVENATING TASTE OF COCONUT ( ILANEER)WATER ?

CAN A PACE BOWLING MACHINE EQUAL THE NATURAL BRILLIANCE OF A MALCOLM MARSHALL, THE LETHAL SKIDDING BOUNCER OF AN ANDY ROBERTS, THE OUTSWINGER OF A KAPIL DEV, THE GOOGLY OF A B.S.CHANDRASEKHAR, OR THE INSTINCTIVE GENIUS OF A BRIAN LARA ?

DO NOT COMPARE - IR IS THE KING
From: Madhan,Goa. (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Mon Jan 19 11:16:53 EST 1998

Dear Sathya,

I would like to maintain touch with you - please do email to me.

Madhan, Goa.
From: MPR (@ dyn07.iacc-t23.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Mon Jan 19 13:47:23 EST 1998

MADHAN:

I disagree with you in one point. shivA and idhayaththai thirudAthE were big hits not only because of IR. Those two movies were well directed too. The songs are also good, may be the y could have carried the movie to such a big hit. but we should alos give credit to the directors.
From: NAVARATNA RAJA (@ jrc-5-170.tm.net.my) on: Mon Jan 26 09:22:21 EST 1998

Actually speaking the reason for IR's downfall is his songs are getting stale after all these years
It is only natural that people will like to go for a change.MSV was a genius and all his songs either by himself or with TKR the songs were superb and priceless masterpieces.Yet he is not given a share of the market now.So looking at all
these the people who are the 'CONSUMERS'
have the right to choose.I am certain that the songs composed by ARR are superb just as how IR composed in his earlier days.Whatever it is IR
with his same style cannot regain his foot he will eventually go down likre the others ,as what goes up has to come down.
From: NAVARATNA RAJA (@ jrc-5-170.tm.net.my) on: Mon Jan 26 09:22:31 EST 1998

Actually speaking the reason for IR's downfall is his songs are getting stale after all these years
It is only natural that people will like to go for a change.MSV was a genius and all his songs either by himself or with TKR the songs were superb and priceless masterpieces.Yet he is not given a share of the market now.So looking at all
these the people who are the 'CONSUMERS'
have the right to choose.I am certain that the songs composed by ARR are superb just as how IR composed in his earlier days.Whatever it is IR
with his same style cannot regain his foot he will eventually go down likre the others ,as what goes up has to come down.
From: Gopal (@ 1cust60.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Mon Jan 26 19:49:04 EST 1998

Ayya N Raja avargaLE! IR down, or IR out enbadhu oorarindha vishayam. Adhu yArukkum vEndAm! Why? and How? enbadhudhan indha topic. MudinjA andha avenuevil contribute pannunga. yEdhAvadhu pudhu vishayam kodukkarEngaLa enru pAkkalAm!!
'Genius' MSV kEezhE vandhappO it was just a downfall of yet another MD! IR vandhappO it was/is a downfall of an empire!! AdhudhAn indha discussionukku base!
IR has to go down like others enru solvadhil arthamE illai! You know why? His hold !! Summa ellArayum pOla illai IR! You know that! AanAlum oppukoLLamudiyavillai!
Genius MSVkkum great ARRkkum naduvil ennAchu Raaja avargaLE?

Anyway! oru human being enna perusA seyya mudiyum! There is a limit and there is definitely philosophy behind! Neenga unga 'genius'msvyai vittu kodukka pOvadhillai naan en IRai vittu kodukkapOvadhillai!! UngaLLukku IR govindha enru solvadhil 'yEdho mOham, yEdho dhAham' irupadhAi thOndrugiradhu! But bear in mind. IR pOtta route isaiyil vEru endha 'genius' pannAdha kAriyam, mudiyAdha kAriyam!!
'You would if you could but you cant so you wont'
From: SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN (@ client-151-200-126-135.bellatlantic.net) on: Mon Jan 26 23:59:10 EST 1998

I started this topic primarily to emphasis the following things

1. Ilayaraja's market decline is not due to any other MD. It is obvious from the fact that Ilayaraja was producing more than 40 films an year and more than 100 hit songs per year. If somebody pulls out him from top, he should be producing these thigs. It is not the case now. But when Raja Replaced MSV, he started giving more films/year and songs/year than MSV. MSV fans, I am not doing any disgrace to MSV by saying this. I am telling the fact.

RAJA IS NOT REPLACED BY ANY MD

2. Ilayaraja's fellow industry people were looking for an oppurtunity to pull him out. After 1990, Raja gradually relaxed from the industry concentrating on symphony and other things. They used this time to club together and I agree they succeeded. Raja is still roaring like a lion. He did not go out of the field due to lack of stuff. Today he could give the biggest hit of 1997, Kadhalukku mariathai without changing his style of music.
RAJA DID NOT RUN OUT OF STUFF

These two things are my emphasis.

I classify Raja's bashers as follows.

1. MSV fans who were angry at Raja's whirlwind entry into the field. No regrets, Raja accepted MSV as a Genius, both worked together. (e.g. Journalist CHO.RAMASAMY). They are now happy with Raja's fall. This is a crude happiness.

2. Born by rich people who hardly have sentiments in their life, most of the time hearing songs in a car. They dislike Raja's personality and their ego does not let them to accept raja as a Genius. This is due to their inability to digest raja's success as he is a poor man from a village.

3. Section of Youth which primarily likes Rahman's Personality. They feel Rahaman's music as if they themselves composed. They feel Rahman as their colleague and feel happy propogating his name.(I have done this when Rahman made the entry). If Rahman were a older guy, they attitude would have been different.

4. Classical People who are angry with Raja that, during his peak he overshadowed classical music by diverting the attention of fans, Classical people who feel that they are more talented than Raja and raja is more popular only because he is doing cine songs. A kind of jealousy.

5. People who always look for new. These people always criticise the current trend and appreciate new things only because it is new. Even if Rahamn completely loses his market, these people will be happy.

6. Group of people who crack fires whenever Giants and popular people fall. They will be hardly infulenced by ups and downs of Giants. But they get a cruel happiness at the fall of others. Even if Rajini loses his market, these people will celebrate. Jealous attitude.

7. People who dislike Raja's speeches and his interviews. These people feel that "Raja thimir pidichcha Aalu". So at Raja's fall they are happy that "Olinjaan". Sorry, I like Raja's music. I am not bothered what his characters are, It is none of my business.
From: doctor (@ j28.ptl43.jaring.my) on: Tue Jan 27 22:47:17 EST 1998

Dear Sathiya, What ever you say Raja is down at moment because he have never scored any good songs at industry past few years. One thing all Of us must understand If you want to be number one you must prove yourself on and off. If others can prove that he will be No 1. No point talking old staff. You must always ask yourself what happened to Raja now?
Raja have finished his staff.So you can appreciate him for all his old songs but not the recent one.
If you ask me all these people fall down due to their ego. Why should Raja have problem with good directors like K.Balachander, K.Bhakiaraj,Bharathi Raja vice visa? The people above also have problem
without Raja once upon time. Why can't all these people work together? Raja dig his own grave by having problem with K.Balachander . K.B.have to find some alternative and it clicked.K.B. tried many but ARR
clicked. Its good to have many MD and competition so that they can give a good scores but Raja fall due to ARR. THat every one to accept it.
From: Sai Satheesh (@ gateway.tpp.com) on: Wed Jan 28 16:27:34 EST 1998

IR's competitors Deva and ARR, both made it big with KB's productions. Deva got the biggest break of his life when he was asked to score for Annamalai a film which starred Superstar and produced by one of the well known banners Kavithalaya. ARR made his debut in Roja although KB had no role in choosing him as MD.
From: Gopal (@ 1cust47.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Wed Jan 28 17:11:03 EST 1998

Mr Doctor

Raja dig his own grave by having problems with KB.

KB yenna tamil film industryOda sole proprietor??
Pervert ideas vachhu ivarai yAr padam edukkalayE enru azhudhAngA? IR lost his market just becos he had a tiff with KB enrAl, society IRudaya pAttukkaL illAmal konjam nashtamdhAn! Nalla pAttukkaLai kEtka mudiyavillayE enru!

KB in toto film industryilirundhu pOyvittadhAl societyikku evvaLavu lAbam theriyumA? KB aLavukku
kEvalamAna kadhaigaLai (to some extent Balu Mahendra thavira)inrum padamAga edukka producers thayangugirArgaL!! Appadipatta pervert KB!!!

Appadipatta KByOdu IR inaindhu padam edukkAmal pOnadhu ennaipOndror seydha punniyam! ha ha ha!!!
From: doctor (@ j12.ptl37.jaring.my) on: Wed Jan 28 23:41:28 EST 1998

Gopal ,don't say that because both of them are legend in the industry.They can do wonders in the movie world.
The problem with them are ego. You can have ego to a certain extent but not to these extreme.Now you can see the down fall of Raja. Even I'M not happy with the fall of Raja.Ask yourself why did he fall? WAI KOLLPU
THALAI KANNAMM. How did ARR came to industry?
Why should KB search for one more musician when there is already one in the industry.Becauce he had some problem with Raja in some film discussion.KB have to walk of from the place. I am not supporting KB
If KB not in industry ,Iwould have condem KB. Why can't these fellows work together
.
From: Gopal (@ 1cust48.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Thu Jan 29 12:31:05 EST 1998

Doctor
Sorry for coming hard on the topic.
From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Thu Jan 29 15:55:30 EST 1998

Its great fun to watch IR fans go overboard. In the spirit, I would also add a few points;

1. IR is a genius.
2. People who rejoice that IRs market share are fallen are:
a. Idiots.
b. perverts.
c. rich people who didnt like the fact that IR came from a poor family.
d. poor people who dont like the fact that IR is rich.
e. middle class people who dont like the fact they are short of money this month.
f. non-IR caste people who dont like the fact IR belongs to another caste.
g. IR-caste people who dont like the fact that IR hasnt started a struggle for higher reservation for them in govt. jobs.
h. DMK fans who dont like the fact that IR hasnt joined DMK.
i. ditto J fans.

KB enna tamizh film sole propreitor-aa nnu orutthar kekkarar. Adhe kelviyai avar IR/TFM patthi kooda yosikkalam.

KB padangal pidikkalainna paakaadhenga. Adukku yen ivvalavu emotional avareenga ?

Indha threadle naanum paakaren. oruttharaavadhu IR uselessnu sollak kaanum. Aanalum bayangara sandai. IRkku Nobel Prize kodukkakk koodadhunnu eppadi sollalaamgara type sandai. Niraya perukku IR geniusnu otthukkittaa podhale. IR Folk music, Filmy music, pop, rock, rap, classical, carnatic, hindustani, katthi sandai, gudirai yetram ellatthilayum topnu otthukkittathan sarippadum polirukku.

MSV oru geniusnu sonna sandai. MSV geniusnu sollalam, aanal adhu sollittu MSV IRai vida mattamnu sollanumnu oru sandai. Idhai pattha chinna vayasile naanum en thangaigalum singatthukkum puliikkum sandai vittaa yaar jayippangannu sandai pottadhu gnaabagam varudhu.

ARR kitte irundhu nalla paattu vandhirukkunnu sonna sandai. Romba kuzhandhaith thanama irukkudhunga.

IR kooda cinema ulagila irukkira niraya perukku sandai. IR kooda patthu per sandai potta oru velai IR kitta thappu irukkalamonu yosikkaradhu logical. Especially considering that KBkku IR kooda mattum dhaan sandai. Bharathi Raja, Bhagyarajkku IR kooda mattum dhan sandai. Diamondukk ( BTW, I hate diamond style poetry. ) IR kooda mattum dhan sandai.

Ana inga niraya perukku basic premise IR = Superman+Mahatma Gandhi+Einstein+Beethoven. Neenga ellarum IRoda musickku adimaiya ille IRkku adimaiyaa ? MGR padatthai patthuttu avarukku vote pottavangalukkum ungalukkum enna vidhiyasam ?

Orutthar solraru, IR varushatthile 1000 padangalukku isai amaitthalum IRkku kalaippe yerpadaadham. Innorutthar solraru, IRall than Rajini, Kamal, Bharathiraja, Bhagyaraj, KB, AVM ellam nikka mudinjadhu. Avanga ellam nandri ketta jenmamnu. Oru cinema vetri/tholvi adaiya kaaranam adhanoda director. IR arumaiyana paattu potta etthanaiyo padam tholvi adainjirukku. "Kannai thorakkanum Sami" padam romba naal odi irukku. IRdhaan ellatthukkum kaaranmana 80galil IR 700-800 padangalukku isai amaicchu irupparnu ninaikkaren. 700-800 padangal 80galil vertri adainjudhunnu ninakkarengala ?

IR oru arumaiyana kalaignar. Avarai dheivam akkaadhenga.
From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Thu Jan 29 16:17:04 EST 1998

RV :

nAn sollalai. Neenga sollitteenga. neenga sonnadhu 100kku 100 nijam.

IR is a genius. But he is an eccentric genuis. The price you pay for genius.

konja nAl munnadi TMS 'ennaladhan MGR-um, Sivaji-um hero va nikka mudinjadhu' nnu joke adicharE andha madhiri irukkudhu IR-AlE dhan Kamalum, Rajni-yum periya AL AnAngannu solradhu.
From: gOpal (@ 1cust45.tnt2.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Thu Jan 29 21:06:27 EST 1998

RV:

It was nice reading your reply. So you have vented your spleen?:):)
Unga ennangaLukku oru corollary tharugirEn!

1)....IRai patriya Ippadipatta palavidha pEththalgaL (yes, i mean it. utter bla bla) yEn? Just becos, he has invaded our hearts! Getting into the mind is different from getting into heart!! pala vishayangaL mindkullE nitkum! Heartil nitpavai sila! Neenga sonna mAdhiri Mahathma, Einstein, etc., etc., stuffai eduthukkoLvOm! From TamilNadu, there have been charismatic leaders, cine stars, personalities in all walks of life, in the past, and present. But, yennakku therindha varayil, music departmentilirundhu oru manushan ippadi iththanai pErai invade seydhadhu, i think this is the first (and may be last!) (man) time!! Avarukku enna beauty looks irukkiradhA? political support irukkiradhA? Backing? Media? Publicity? Good PR? Nothing!! Sweet nothing except sweet music!! That was/is the reason!!

2)......Kindly note it! IRai topple seyya ARR udaiya 'Roja' mattum kAranam illai! Roja had the greatest shift factor! NO doubt!!! Yet, it just fell in line with various other factors! Thats all! Oru thErai thaLLa ennavellam seyyavEndumO adhellAm seyyavEndiyadhAyitru!! In the process, ARR and his Roja were the kayiru!! To topple IR, palavidha vyOOhangaL amaikkappattana!! So isaiyil IRai dethrone seyya mudindhadhA? Mudindhadhu, with ARR and Roja, but that was not planned and intended!! IT was just an offshoot!!!!

3)......Just five feet! Today, when he walks into the stage, people go bonkers! Why? When he smiles holding the mic. people involuntarily smile! Why? Hero worship? MGR kind of charsima? No! He has just identified himself with the soil. Thats all! Nothing more!! Idharku avarukku kidaitha karuvi avarudai isai!!

4)........Oru KB, Oru Barathiraaja, Oru Adoor, Oru Sathyajit Ray sila vArthaigaLiLO or pala vArthaigaLiLO yedhaiyAvadhu pEsinAl - ' avaru periya ALupA, eppadi pEsarAru pAru' enrO 'avaru periya ALupA, yeppadi pEsAma irukkAru pAru' enrO pugazhAram sOOttuvOm! Aanal ILAYARAAJA thanakkendru oru vazhi yEtpaduthikkondAl adharku peyar 'thalaiganam' 'thimir' appadithAnE ?!!!
Beemsinghai oru KB replace pannumbOdhu or pa. neelakandanai oru modern maniratnam replace seydhapOdhu yEn andha ennam yArukkum varavillai? Vandhirukkum, Aanal, impact seyyavillai! But when it was Ilayaraaja, it had a different connotation!! Flute MAliyin eccentricitiesai marandhu oru nimida flute isaikku adimaiyAnavargaL evvaLavO laksham makkaL!! Salvador Dali yin kirukkuthanangaL inru millions perum!! So, eccentricities, ego, etc., ivai ennathAn oruvanai nam kanmunnar downfallAkkinAlum, adhanai kandu
rasippavargaL evvaLavOpEr!! Thats human nature.
VAzhdhAlum yEsum thAzhndhAlum yEsum vaiyagam idhu!! RV, neengaLE nALaikku oru mAperum AaLanAlum idhudhAn gadhi!! The ultimate is philosophy! IR, x, y, z...... ellAm oru pOOjyamdhAm!! Idhu yArukkum theriyAmal illai! Still..............

5).......Indha DFil padikkAdha gumbal enru yAraiyAvadhu identify seyya mudiyumA? Supposedly educated!! Right?! Each and every IR fan writing in this forum is spread across the globe, to some extent!
Indha educated group summA IRai blind worship seyya enna thEvai irukkiradhu?? Inru veLivarum softwareai patriya review padikkAmal thoongappOvadhillai yArum!! Appadi irukkumbOdhu indru pudhidhAi varum isaikkalaignyargaLai AamOdhikkavo approve seyyavO yEn kashttam?

6)........RV (ungaLaiyum sErthu) solkirEn!! RaajAyanam oru pakkam irukkattum!! MSV fans ARRai oppukondu convenientAga oru 20 yearsai odhukkivitEergaLe!!
yArudaiya seyal childish and puerile? 20 yearsAga yArukku nashtam? IRukku sariyAga equate seyyavo or replace seyyavO orutharukku vishayam irukkiradhA endru kooda pArkavillai!! AppadA, ammukku IRai enbadhu dhAn idea!! Idhu eppadi irukku??

7).......Tamil isaiyai tamizhanukku unarthiya IRukku eppadipatta parisu!! kAranam? IRudaya ego, pEchu!! Isai engeyppA pOchu?? Tamil isaiyai Hindi makkaL yEtrukOndu vittanar enru sollikOLvadhil enna periya sandhOsham?? puriyavillai enakku!! idhOdu illAmal 'ARR tamizh isaiyai ulagukku kAttiyavar' enra tholkAppiya pattam vEru!! romba abaththam!!
Idhu yArukkum theriyAmal illai!! Still....appAdA IR ozhinjAchchu! ARR yeppadi isai pannugirAr? YOv, adhu repetitionO, copyO, yennavO, IR ozhinjAchu! Adhu pOdhum!! NeengaL solvadhai pArthaL IR anAvasiyamAga oru 20 years ariyAsanaththil dictator pOla irundhamAdhiri theriyudhE!! MSV isaisagAptham mudindhu 20 varudangaL Agivittana! Avarudaiya isai kApiyangaL! Adhil sandhEham illai!
Indrum neengaLellAm pEsavillai??

Indrum isaiyAi vAzhndhu kondirukkum isaimEdhai Ilayaraajai patri pEsuvadhil yenna thavaru??
From: MSK (@ dhcp-877019741.qualcomm.com) on: Thu Jan 29 22:31:04 EST 1998

Hats off to u Gopal.!

No one around here is a fool to blind worship IR It's his music that has cast such a spell.

When i first listened to KM songs, the first thing that came to mind was how could this guy, who has scored over 800 films still come out with a song/orchestration that has no trace of his earlier compositions/or other songs.

At the same time, half of ARR songs and all of Deva songs give u the " ithu etho palaya paatu tune maathiri iruke" feeling. I am not saying that ARR has not given any good songs., But it hurts music fans like me to see IR's excellent songs getting down the hit list ratings to deva and ARR songs. That's exactly what TFM/ IR fans here are trying to analyse .!!

It really hurts me when people come saying IR is not in markit b'cos he no longer produces good music.

Get this straight !!
No music lover can sincerely come up and say that today IR's music has gone bad in quality, Orchestration or whatever. Nor that other's score
is better in all these aspects than IR's .

IR "IS" still the best MD in TFM . I have heard
hardcore ARR/DEva Fans say this .!!

IR may no longer be the most wanted/top music director in TFM but He is still the best in terms of scoring music Period
From: Rajesh (@ pdxss902.jf.intel.com) on: Thu Jan 29 22:51:24 EST 1998

RV,

What you say is correct. But think about why IR fans are fighting. I am a great fan of IR but I
am not averse to other MDs. What makes me feel
bad is the fact that IR was never given the attention or recognition he deserved. You may say
he is gone now. I will say he will always be the
greatest. Difference in taste may be the reason.
I can live with your comments. I am not averse to ARR. But if we compare on same reference scale, I feel ARR was given more recognition than IR. The media, publicity, etc make him the greatest. i wonder where did all these people go when IR was doing something great. It creates an illusion that IR did not provide any variety at all. IR, MSV, ARR are all good MDs but when it comes to accepting I feel many have problems accepting IR because of his ego or whatever that is. Most of IR fans fight on any award discussion because everybody feels he was not recognised. Personally, I dont care if he gets an award or not. I admire him for what he has to offer. Most of TFM fans have a great satisfaction in saying IR is gone forever. Lot of friends tell me that as though it was their single goal in life to see him disappear. Initially I used to argue but later I found it absurd. What am I going to achieve in making them say IR is great? If IR decides to stop
scoring music, I will really feel horrible. I eagerly wait for his new releases. I am sure you were one of those millions who were waiting to say IR is gone, IR deserves to go for his thimir, all that. Sandhoshama sattham pottu sollunga IR
avvaluvudhaannu.
From: SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN (@ client-151-200-126-47.bellatlantic.net) on: Thu Jan 29 23:51:24 EST 1998

Thanks for great explanations, Gopal, MSK and Rajesh. So far all the transitions in No. 1 slot were smooth and were natural. Nobody criticised the MD who was pulled down. Nobody were happy about their fall. Also whoever replaced the No. 1 has given more stuff than what the previous No. 1 was giving. What is the current situation now? Till 1993, the number of hit songs was more than 100 an year. Nowadays TFM is at the nightmare producing less than 20 hit songs an year. Also now TFM is well backed up by Sat TVs. Till 1993 there was no advertisement to the songs. Now even after so much enforcement from the media and Sat TVs, the number of hit songs is less than 20. This is a fact.

A true music lover should regret for this, Why people are happy at Raja's fall. It is like a proverb

"MAHAN SETHTHAALUM PARAVAAYILLAI, MARUMAGA THAALI ARUKKANUMNU MAAMIYAR NINAICHCHAALAAM"

Why you guys are looking at his personal characters? Rajinikanth is smoking in front of the press accepting that he is a "Modakudiyar", Kamal divorced his wife, got a child before marrying Sariga. How many of you are criticising these things? We are least bothered about their behaviour. We like rajini's style and Kamal's acting. Then why do you bother about IR's thimir. What we are doing with that? Let KB or Barathiraja happy about Raja's downfall. Atleast from their view (need not be justified) Raja insulted. All that IR gave to us is good music. We reserve no moral rights to talk about his personal character. People are happy about the fall of the individual IR, rather than MD IR. We cannot convince them as their view is like

"KOKKUKKU ONNE MATHI"
From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Fri Jan 30 00:09:02 EST 1998

Gopal and others:

I didnt expect so many people to respond and more importantly I didnt expect hard core IR fans to agree with me to a large extent. ;-)

Anyway, Gopal, Naan ezhudhiadhu venting spleen endraal, neenga KB kevalamaana padam edukkiraar, KB ozhinjadhu periya TFkku periya laabamnu ezhudhiadhu eppadi ? ;-) Romba unarcchi vasap pattu vittengannu ninaikkiren. ;-)

Gopal:
1. Neenga IRdhaan mudhal mudhalaaga ippadi isai moolam ellaraiyum kavarndhaarnu solvadhu factually thavaru endru ninaikkiren. Thiruvaavadhuthurai Rajaratthinam Pillai, MKT, PU Chinnappa, SG Kittappa pondravargalaithaan andha perumai serum. At least, thats what people of my grandparents' generation used to tell me.

2. For the sake of argument, lets assume that toppling IR was a conspiracy. If IR gets on the wrong side of so many important people in the film industry, do you expect them not to react and take it with humility ? How about some humility from IR ? Also, if I were in the movie business, I would like to do my best to ensure that there is no monopoly in anything - that would be detrimental to my business.

Pl. understand this point. I am not saying one thing about IRs musical capabilities. I am talking about IR the person rubbing too many people the wrong way.

3. People hv gone bonkers at a much higher degree for MGR, Sivaji, Rajini, Kamal, Khusboo. Khusboovukku kovile kattinaanga endru kelvi. Adhanale Khushboo periya aalunnu otthukkuveengala ?

Ippa enakku veliye poganum. Adhanale vandhu thodargiren.
From: RV (@ 1cust23.max2.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net) on: Fri Jan 30 02:15:48 EST 1998

4. Neenga Satyajit Ray, KB, BRaja ivangalai patthi enna sollarengannu sariya purialai. Avanga enna senjaalum paaratarangannu solreengannu ninaikkiren. Thappa purinijittirundha mannikkavum.

I am big fan of Satyajit Ray. Many of early movies are sheer poems. But because I think Ray is a great film maker, it doesnt mean I should close my eyes to his faults. I can be and I am quite objective about his movies. Many of his later movies are not really good. I love Charulatha. I love the second segment in Teen Kanya. Except for one scene, I dont like Gana Shatru. Where do you get this impression that whatever Ray does, people praise him ?

For the record, I think BRajas movies are half-baked. Balachander was better off when he was making light comedies - upto early seventies, I think. I hv seen very few movies of Adoor and I didnt like one of them.

For the sake of argument lets assume that there is a gumbal which praises these people blindly. How does that make blind worship of IR right ?

Appuram Bhim Singh, Neelakantan pondravargal cine ulagil niraya perudan sandai pottadhaagath theriyavillai.

5. Indha educated gumbal yen IRai blind worship seyya vendum endru kettirundheenga. Adhu therindhal naan yen adhe kelviyai ungalai ketka vendum ? ;-) Neengadhaan sollanum. There are some theories in the thread "Psychology of Transition." Padicchup paarungalen.

6. Idhudhaanga enakku puriyadha point. Naan ennudaiya postingil sonna maadiri indha threadil ezhudiya ellarume IR oru genius appadinnu solli irukkanga. - ennaiyum sertthu. Appuram 20 varushatthai engenga odhukkaradhu ? Paakkap pona neengadhan indha 4-5 varshuatthai odhukkarengannu thonudhu.

Ennudaiya teenagele naanum periya IR fanunga. MSV uselessnu niraya argue panni irukken. Appuram pazhaiya paattu ketka ketka - IR "Oram Po", "Netthu Raathiri Yamma" madiri paattu poda poda - IR mele irundha madhippu konjam kuranju pocchu. IR niraya gems kodutthirukkar. Aanal niraya kuppaiyum kodutthirukkar.

7. Thamizh isaiyai thamizhanukku unartthiyavar IR appadinnu solradhellam konjam over. Adhellam aarambichhu romba varusham aagi vittadhu. #6le sonna maadiri, yaarunga IR uselessnu indha threadle sonnadhu ? Mudinja sollunga.

IR ozhinjacchu! Santhoshamnu solra postingai naanum thedip paarthen. Kanavillai. IR-in market share yen koranjadhu appadingaratthukku ellaarum avanga avanga theory solli irukkanga. e.g. Ennoda theory IR ekkacchakka padam oru varushatthukku otthukkittu paadhi padangalil concentrate pannalaingaradhu. Neenga ore oru explanation than otthukkuveenga polirukku. Utthamaram IRai paavigal siluvaiyil araindhu vittargal! Ayyago!

Rajesh:
Ungalukku enna vayasunnu enakkuth theriyaadhu. Naan schoole padikkumbodhu, Gundappa Visvanathnu orutthar cricket vilayadittu irundhar. A brilliant batsman who one can watch for 5 days without getting bored. Get a pitch that assists the bowlers, put him in one end, pit some good bowlers against him - it is just divine. Ajay Jadeja today, who is not fit to clean Vishys shoes, has more recognition than him. He probably earns 10 times more money than Vishy ever did - just in ad revenues. So what am I supposed to do ? Cry about the injustice to Vishy ? Media has changed tremendously in the 5-6 years. Is ARR responsible for that ? If IR had come in now, he would hv gotten at least that good a response in TV. GRamanathan, KVMahadevan, MSV-TKR, MSV never got the recognition IR did. I dont remember anyone putting up a cutout for these people. My father didnt even hv a radio to listen to concerts. My kids will probably hv a CD player in their room. Thats the way things are. Should he fight against putting the CD players in their rooms ?

MSK:
I was aware of TFM when MSVs star was waning and IRs star was rising. MSV continued to give hits for a long time after IR made his presence felt. "Kamban Emaandhaan", "Namma Ooru Singaari", "Malligai Mullai" etc. are some of the songs I remember. I used to be a staunch IR fan who thought the MSV is not good - like you guys today - and these were some of the songs that my friends used to argue with me. ;-) I mean, you cant not like those songs anyway.

It is not the IR is out. It is that IR is down. A new wave is starting up. If IR can withstand the wave, so be it. I would be personally glad that he whethered this storm - provided he continues to produce good songs at a reasonable frequency. If he doesnt, so be it - a glorious chapter in TFM has come to an end. Thats all.

This thread is supposed to discuss reasons for IRs reduced market share. If you guys would accept only the conspiracy theory and bad mouth people coming with other theories, what purpose does this thread serve ?

Sathya:
Again, the same bee in the bonnet: people rejoice, eat sweets and burst crackers at IRs fall. ;-)

IRs personal character is discussed because that is perceived as a reason for his fall in market share. Rajinis "bad characteristics" didnt affect his career because he learnt to put things in the right perspective before things really turned bad. Kamal ensured that his "immoral" tendencies didnt take him to the step of fighting with every important director in the industry.

Man, I am tired of this. Long long postings explaining the obvious.
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Fri Jan 30 12:04:39 EST 1998

Title of this thread is

"Analysis - Reasons for iLaiyarAjA's decline in TFM marker:
Things beyond control".

Hence IR relationship with other TF people are ponts to discuss.
But is it beyond control?
From: Arun chander (@ m30.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Mon Feb 2 04:51:26 EST 1998

Hi,

I am new here.

sorry for writing such a long article, but i couldn't resist!!!

There can be no doubt that Illayaraja has got one of the most creative
music brains in the country.I think he hasn't got the recognition
or awards he should have.He has tuned thousands of songs
with every one of them being distinct.now take the case of ARR or Deva
their songs either sound repititive (ARR)or hugely inspired (Deva).
Agreed that ARR 's roja sounded like a breath of fresh air.but he hasn't
maintained that standard and of late certainly his music has deteoriated.
Roja,pudiya mugam etc.. had great music but don't know why his music
sounds repititive nowadays.But ARR is the only music director after
Illayaraja to have a style of his own.I think it's time ARR picks films
with some good storyline rather than churn out trash.

Now talking of musical talent Illayaraja is
miles ahead of the rest of the pack (incl. MSV,KVM,ARR,Deva etc..).
He improvises tunes with such speed that makes one wonder whether
such creativity is humanely possible.Now coming to certain opinions in
this thread :

1. MSV has tuned more ragas than IR -- cut this crap on ragas.it's only the final
tune which matters.The public are not going to like a song just becos it has been
tuned in a rare raga.( now for your argument sake IR has better command
over MSV in carnatic music.IR had the creativity of using very rare ragas
which sounded very much like western/light romantic songs which can't
be said of MSV ).I would rate MSV as second only next to IR in terms
contribution to TFM.MSV was indeed a great MD with lots of melodies
to his credit.He made excellent use of carnatic music in TFM.(But i feel
MSV was inspired by Shankar-jaikishan which can be seen in his music
and some even say he himself acknowledged it ).
This is in no way to degrade MSV and any way he didn't lift tunes from them
but his style of music was definitely similar to them.And also his music
was never the same without Ramamurthy.

2. To say that IR is finished is perhaps an hapless argument from someone
who may be either ignorant of music or is a strong ARR fan( may be Deva fan !!!).

3. IR singularly promoted the career of many struggling actors like
Mohan,Murali,Rahman etc..(This is very similar to Hindi Film music
Where Mohd.Rafi's songs were responsible for establishment of actors
like Bharat bhooshan,Pradeep kumar,Joy mukherjee etc..).He also
made many low budget films great hits becos of his music.

Now to the reasons for his decline :

1. ABSENCE OF BIGWIGS : He didn't have the big banners,big producers ,big directors coming his way
after 1990.(except the malayalis like fazil,priyadarshan who have stood by
him).Everyone knows that he had a big ego.so every big director had
disagreements with him during the late 80's and were waiting for someone
to arrive on the scene( remember from 1980-1990 there was not even one
big competitor for IR ,he was the NUMERO UNO).so when ARR came it
was not surprising that everyone opted for ARR.Now do we call this backstabbing?
I don't think so.

But these people must remember the invaluable contribution
of IR to their films.Imagine this situation.if Illayaraja had
abstained from doing music to balachander's SINDHU BHAIRAVI OR PUNNAGAI MANNAN
or bharathi raja's NADODI THENDRAL or KADOLORA KAVIDHAIGAL or maniratnam's
MOUNA RAGAM (God what a great musical score) or THALAPATHI would these
Films have been superhits ? Never.And mind you in 80's they didn't
even have an alternative.

So the fault was with both of them.
you can't really blame anybody.But the surprising thing is that
no one has returned to IR even after a string of failures.

Regarding rajini and kamal it is certainly
a letdown by them.becos they virtually control the entire operations
of their films, so you can't accept when they say " we were tied down
by the producers ".

2. FALL IN QUALITY OF MUSIC :All die hard IR fans have got to accept that there has been a fall in
the quality of IR 's music in the 90's.It is very surprising that a man
of such talent is having such a low phase.Agreed devathai,kaathalukku
mariyadhai,avatharam,sirai chalai have great musical numbers.But it
certainly doesn't match the very high standards he has set for himself.
( raja sir, we expect more!!)There certainly has been a restraint from
his side recently but dunno whether it is purposeful or coincidence.

3. SATELLITE TV :Satellite TV's have indeed gone a long way in Promoting ARR.Even
fans of ARR will not accept the fact that he is best Music director
in india( as claimed by various TV programmes which heap sycophantic
praise on him).Since IR was media shy and never chased publicity
the press and TV promoted all the other MD's.They found in ARR
the youth of modern generation with his stylish jeans, T-shirts
and good facial features.Also the dearth of musical talent in the
country made ARR rage of the nation.Also these countdown
shows are mostly meant for the youth( he, i am only 21 yrs old)
who have an addiction towards ARR.They just don't mind the quality of
music ,they blindly accept the fact that whatever ARR tunes must be good.

4. POOR CASSETTE PROMOTION : I have always found that in the marketing
dept IR 's cassette lag behind. ARR's or Deva's music become well known even
before the film is released while that of IR are known only after a couple
of weeks the film gets released.

5. FAILURE TO ADAPT : I think Illayaraja has failed to adapt to the
music of today.It is not that he is incapable of it but probably doesn't
want to.( I like his guts to still tune golden melodies in his own inimitable
style in this age of jazz,rap etc..).

Another intersting thing with which i agree
is the similarity between Illayaraja and sivaji ( and even kannadhasan
perhaps).Both were immensely talented,way ahead of their times
didn't get their due because of politics or perhaps them being tamilians.

Thanks for reading my post, any constructive
criticism, suggestions ,comments are welcome.

------
arun
From: rv_fan (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Mon Feb 2 09:04:15 EST 1998

RV

HATS OFF!

VathyArE! nalla arumaiyA ezuthureenga.

padichu padichu sirichEn.

Arun:

I don't see a FALL IN QUALITY of IR's music - but
it has become monotonous.
IR is not able to come out his own circle which
he designed for TFM.

After the Symphony deal - if he is asked to make
a song for Ramarajan - IR-ku kottAvi thAn varum.

He lost his enthusiasm.

FAILURE TO ADAPT:

you are right. His ego won't let him do that.
He leaves them to his kids.
From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Mon Feb 2 13:06:11 EST 1998

Indha thread-le posting ini mel vendamnu ninaicchen. But....

Arun:
IR media shy??? Neenga unga vaazhkkaila KVM, GR, TKR avanga photo patthirukkengalaa ? MSV eppadi irupparnu paatthirukkalaam yenna avar sila padangalil paattu paadi irukkar. Oru MDkku ivvalvu recognition vandhadhukku kaaranam IR, 80galili avarukku TFMil irundha monopoly. Annikku irundha communication apparatus-ai ( cutouts, prominence in titles, mudhalili IR-ai fix seidhu vittu piragu matravangalai fix seyya vendia soozhnilai endra image ) avar exploit pannikkittar. Titles MDkku indha maadhiri oru velai MKT, PUC kaaltthile prominence irundhirukkalam. ). Innikku irukkaradhai ARR exploit pannaraar. I grew up when MSV was going down and IR was rising to the top. I dont remember anything - Kisu Kisu, articles, appreciation, whatever - about MSV. On the other hand IR was prominently featured. Annikku TV ivvalavu illai. Irundhaal IR TVili periya aala aayiruppaar. Enakku idhu nicchayamaagth theriyum - Yenendraal appodhu naan periya IR fan - MSV uselessnu argue seyya I used to quote from the articles. Innikku I dont hv access to Tamil mags - so ARR may be features more prominently than IR. And I am sure that ARR has more exposure on TV. See my comments on Gundappa Visvanath and Jadeja in an earlier posting.

Bones Sathya:
Vasishtar vaayaal brahma rishi!
From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Mon Feb 2 13:11:53 EST 1998

A clarification:

In the prev posting, I had written a line;
"Annikku naan periya IR fan".

Innikkum naan periya IR fandhan! It just means that I hv outgrown the phase where it is only IR and nobody else.
From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Mon Feb 2 15:55:44 EST 1998

Yet another clarification:

I dont think there was anything wrong in IR exploiting his "monopoly" in 80s to project himself. Similarly I dont think there is anything wrong in ARR using the current media growth to increase his popularity. I just dont like ARR being pulled down because the media projects him. I dont think ARR is as good as IR. I think that ARR repeats his tunes, ARR produces too many useless songs and comparing ARR to IR is something like comparing Saurabh Ganguly to Gavaskar. Hopefully ARR will continue to grow and enrich TFM further. Hopefully IR wont fall from his perch ( as Sivaji did - by acting in hajaar kuppai movies ) and continue to produce many more songs. I liked IR in Devathai, Avatharam etc. Avatharam was espy. good while Devathai was all right. I hvnt heard KM yet. His productivity seems to be falling. This is of course, a prejudiced stmt as I hvnt been to India in a long time and my access to new TFM is limited.

I appeal to all of you not to get trapped in this "It is IR and nobody else."

After all, this thread was started to ostensibly discuss the reasons for IRs downfall and I see this reaction too often; How dare you criticize IR ? Bus, Bahooth Ho Gaya!
From: MSK (@ dhcp-877019741.qualcomm.com) on: Mon Feb 2 19:34:07 EST 1998

I guess IR will re-establish his #1 position . TFM has only to gain a lot by that .

I sincerely hope that this will happen before the end of this year. And then the piracy/re-cycle team will be in deep trouble. ;-))

MSK

MSK
From: SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN (@ client-151-200-127-20.bellatlantic.net) on: Mon Feb 2 23:53:46 EST 1998

MSK, your views are fine. From my views, I will make a comparison between ARR and IR like

Jayasurya - Don Bradman

Jayasurya definitely made a breakthrough in the field. But the reference can only be Bradman.

Sathya
From: gOpAl (@ 1cust146.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Tue Feb 3 00:23:55 EST 1998

MSK

PRT!! (Piracy/Recycle Team) Good Acronym! Ha ha ha!

RV:

What do you mean by Bus, bahooth ho gaya?? Is that tamil?? Also, thanx for your appeal ;-)
From: sathya (@ client-151-200-127-152.bellatlantic.net) on: Tue Feb 10 19:27:36 EST 1998

stay
From: Aussie Arvind (@ 202.61.255.20) on: Thu Feb 12 19:46:33 EST 1998

Guys,

IR WILL comeback; he's just sitting back and observing the current TFM trend. Let me tell you that IR is a very philosophical person. I have seen him talk in live shows (videos) and the maturity of his comments are quite amazing.

For example he says that all MDs are like majicians. They take captivating tunes and present it in such a way that people think it is a new tune and creation. It's just like showing you a mango and then pulling out a rabbit from a cap..like in a majic show. However, even to be a master of this ART is no mean thing and IR is the master of this. Sometimes he says that he composes a song and later realises that it is similar to the 'meter' of an old song.

I strongly believe that music is an evolving thing. There is so much richness in the culture of music that MDs can draw from...and if you master that art then one is being truly creative, and we may adore them for it.

If you remember, in IRs early days there was a lot of talk about him lifting tunes and beats off English pop music. Then IR really struck it with folk (gramma type) songs..which were real gems no doubt. Village based films were also easy on the budget and with IRs musical genius with folk type compositions THEY made a killing in this type of market. Every other film was a village based one and IR was the MD. In my opinion this has really killed off the rest of urban family stories; I would even say that these type of village movies has stunted the mental growth of all Indians!

Sorry if this has become a long posting, but hopefully will stimulate some discussion more about IR's position-- I really think he's sitting back and observing ARR and Deva.

One thing about IR - he's master of melody because that's what they wanted out of him for so many (country type) movies. Now I think he's feeling slightly out of touch with coming up with modern western type of beats which is the go at the moment. But mark my words, melody never dies but unfortunately may have to co-exist with loud western beats for the foreseeable future. IR can easily do this but to be honest I think he's fed up with all this crap that producers want. He's done everything and I think he sees all the current music as beneath him...he has nothing to prove so he doesn't care is what I think.
From: Madhan (@ 202.41.117.3) on: Fri Feb 13 12:54:45 EST 1998

ORu ooril kal sedhukkum sirpi oruvan irundhaanam - sirpi yendraaal, avan oru genius - yendha kallaaga irundhaalum paravaayillai, vendiyabadi thevaiyaanapadi sedhukkum thiramai, adhuvum kuraindha nerathhil miga yelidhil sedhukkum thiramai udaiyavan. Kal poi, kalimannai kondu vandhu sedhukka chonnargal - seidhu paarthaan, mudiyavillai, siridhu kaalam poruthhirundhu, sirpi kuyavanaanaan, adhuvum thirampada seidhaan , piragu kadarkarai manalai kondu vandhu silai vadikaachhonaargal, sirpi veruthhu poi mankudisai seidhu kondirukkiraan. IR's nilamai indha sirpiyai pondradhu - adhudhaan veruthhu poyirukkiraar.
From: Aussie Arvind (@ 202.61.255.18) on: Fri Feb 13 18:15:14 EST 1998

Madhan,
I agree with your excellent analogy.
From: Suresh (@ bellbird.qut.edu.au) on: Sun Feb 22 04:35:43 EST 1998

i think the reason that IR's magic has "seemingly" waned is nothing but the overall quality of films that are being made. can one think of any mahendran, sridhar, b/raaja or balu mahendra movie of yore without IR's contribution? such were the combined power of all the cinematic elements of script, direction, music and photography that those movies remain in the realm of masterpieces. consider today's films and directors. how many movies can you associate with sensitivity and artistic excellence? box office figures have taken precedence over all other elements; even when u have IR's superb songs that he churns out for his old favourites, look at the mess they create while picturising. you just have to look at the two duets from "vanaja girija" directed by KR, to understand how these latent crop of directors undercut IR's efforts. and what about the old great balu mahendra's "raman abdullah"? listen to the songs on audio and then see the movie; its as though he let his lightboy direct them.. it's a sad pity that the few creative directors have moved out of IRs reach due to whatever reasons.. i think that's why u continue to hear absolute blockbusters of IR in malayalam in recent times - kaala pani, guru.. - the visuals are so good, and the songs themselves are in absolute relevance to the script & theme. shouldn't we thank our friends from kerala to keep the IR flag flying high? and thank FAZIl for recreating IR's box office magic with "kaadhalukku mariyadhai" - more than the aural beauty of the songs, the BGM is simply stupendous and after many years, u can feel the audience in the theatre responding to a BGM score!.. lets' hope more of them see sense and come back to the IR fold!
From: badri raghavan (@ 206.103.12.125) on: Thu May 21 08:13:30 EDT 1998

i am not sure if people will continue to read this df but it certainly inspired me. if raaja can inspire so many knowledgeable fans then what more does he want?

i was also surprised that raaja's resurgence is based purely on kadhaluku mariyadai and this was not contested by anybody at all. recall msv's ninaithale innikum long after he started to wane but that was it. i am not saying that km is like that but just because of km it is wrong to say raaja has come back.

i was really impressed with the zeal of the ir fans but as somebody pointed out, they were arguing about nothing and venting their ire at deva and arr as if they are responsible for ir's dormancy or hibernation. let raaja come out and deliver more hits and he will automatically become the media's favourite (azhar was one of the most condemned players for his on and off-field fiascos but the moment he won against australia he is one of the best captains ever- that is life.everybody likes to adulate a winner)

let's wait and see.

bye for now
From: Sangeetha (@ bluebird.state.mo.us) on: Tue Jan 19 18:36:06 EST 1999

Raja and his family should read this thread.

List all pages of this thread

Post comments

Sections: Home - TFM Magazine - Forum - Wiki - POW - oPod - Lyrics - Pictures - Music Notes -
Forums: Current Topics - Ilayaraja Albums - A.R. Rahman Albums - TFM Oldies - Fun & Games
Ilaiyaraja: Releases - News - Share Music - AR Rahman: Releases - News - AOTW - Tweets -
Discussions: MSV - YSR - GVP - Song Requests - Song stats - Raga of songs - Copying - Tweets
Database: Main - Singers - Music Director's - Lyricists Fun: PP - EKB - Relay - Satires - Quiz