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ARR's song making style

Topic started by kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on Tue Oct 3 18:56:17 EDT 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I'd appreciate if knowledgeable people can contribute to this thread, hopefully explaining musical techniques in a form that everybody can understand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: raj (@ 63.252.192.166) on: Mon Oct 9 23:45:22 EDT 2000
  
  anatomy of a(ny) arr song:
  1. unnecessary high pitched start
  2. lyrics twisted to fit the music or music
  changing randomly to accomodate lyrics..
  this is one aspect that makes me feel very
  much irritated..
  3. music meandering in between, having no
  connection to prev. lines or the next
  4. a lot of english-tamil words pronounced
  horribly by north indian singers..i am really
  curious..are there not any good tamil singers
  available?
  5. catchy 2 line jingles in between the song to
  give a feeling as if the whole song is catchy..
  
  i wish rahman take a lesson or atleast listen to
  some good songs and atleast try to copy them..
  i think deva's songs like "pulveli pulveli" in
  aasai, "kalamellam..." in kathal kottai are much
  better songs than most of rahman's..
  
  let rahman learn music first..
  he only pretends to know music..
  let someone tell him that a 2 line
  jingles is not music..
  
  it really renders my heart to see a
  charlatan like rahman is glorified..
  folks, look around for genuine talent..
  
  enough said..
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 131.230.25.38) on: Tue Oct 10 01:42:19 EDT 2000
  
  raj :
  
  I would appreciate if you could justify your posting with appropriate examples. For instance, you have used words like "unnecessary hi-pitch", "music changing randomly", "no connection" etc.. Why dont you substantiate your charges (about the song making style) with specific examples so that a meaningful discussion can be carried out?
  
  chandy
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Tue Oct 10 02:04:47 EDT 2000
  
  Another recent example of ARR meandering away from the main melody of the song is 'poorkalam' from Thenali. It starts of beautifully in what I believe is a scale to Sudha dhanyaasi and then ARR switches to Kaanada in the interludes( it reminds u of the charanam of 'mullai malar mela') and then finally goes away from the mood/base that he builds in the Pallavi and the beginning of the chorus at the end just kills the song;))
  
  2 potentially classic songs, snehidhane and Poorkalam, I feel, have been disappointingly ended up being below par.
  
  
• From: SL (@ 63.253.226.189) on: Tue Oct 10 02:24:37 EDT 2000
  
  Vijay, I was referring to his melody composing style in general. It is just different, that's all... without loss of impact.
  In 'malargaLe..' he could have been catering to some specific requests from the director. Going back to his melody composing style, not all lines really contribute to the song as a whole (only in some songs), they appear to be fillers or they seem to have been tentatively placed. Like the begenning of the stanza in 'Thoda Thoda ...' (Indra) and the HH song in 'Taal' (they even seem to be similar) is quite lifeless and not 'weighty' enough and can easily be fitted into any other song with a similar tempo and feel.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Tue Oct 10 10:17:49 EDT 2000
  
  I agree to some points in raj's frank quick mail.
  Sometimes Rahman cliches on High pitched voice
  and two minutes clips that are totally out of context (As in the interludes of Thiruppachi arivalae).
  
  Vijay, the latest recording system is not even
  track based, it is clip based!
  
  
• From: fan (@ 63.225.172.248) on: Tue Oct 10 10:33:32 EDT 2000
  
  raj, nalla pulambi irukar
  I remember raj avargal singing this old pallavi in 1997, 1998, 1999, now welcome to 2000.
  this shows arr has grown a lot in music, people telling he is doing jingles etc have not grown.
  raj, fear not you will now have support from one more person now.
  
  We have plenty of evidence in this thread that proves that your claim is totally absurd.
  change of stlye etc all depends on directors request and how the song is shoot
  
  MUSIC DIRECTION AND PRODUCTION HAS CHANGED A LOT IN PAST 10 YEARS, WE CANNOT DO ANYTHING TO PEOPLE WHO DONT ACCECPT IT.
  
  This thread is slowly turning into a negative one.
  I dont think discussing here is worth it anymore.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Tue Oct 10 10:42:42 EDT 2000
  
  fan,
  
  I dont support individuals, may that be
  Rahman or Raja or Raj.
  
  My support was for the observation.
  
  rjay
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Oct 10 11:23:41 EDT 2000
  
  Re: pOrkkaLam. The chorus is supposed to be in a different mood, right ? It is like a burst of joy, I am not sure how successfully this (the chorus) has been done but the ending music seems to be going back to the sombre mood. (Also, another characteristic seems to be the 'mukkal' type singing. Was it imported from POP music of North America ?)
  Anyways..talking about melodies - ARR's sandhams are different. How much of this contributes to the song being perceived as 'modern/urban'. Or is this perception an artefact of lyrics/pronunciation ??
  
  Re: tracks. I have read an interview about bad things about MIDI in a recording magazine. I dont remember/understand what he said. It is something to do with 'delay'/'lag'. I also know many orchestra conductors prefer to record a public performance rather than playing in an empty auditorium. On the negative side, it should be noted, such live recordings have the possiblity of having 'errors'.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.210) on: Tue Oct 10 11:40:00 EDT 2000
  
  kiru,
  I've heard the pOrkkaLam song several times now and the mood shift seems fine to me. It starts out mellow and then the said burst of joy occurs when the male voice sings, "pOrkkaLam ini illai..." which changes the mood. The ending is sombre but not in a sad way. Aarpaattam mudindhu amaidhi kaanum mananilai nilavuthu.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Oct 10 12:17:34 EDT 2000
  
  Udhaya..vijay is the one who is more concerned about this. I detected only the ending part mood. You dont seem to have disagreed totally with me on that..but probably only in degrees.
  Anyways coming back to the discussion. I think we should move forward on the scale shifts..consider that it is being done well and not use this as a reason for the melody being discontinuous. We need more analysis to buttress this perception (which I also have).
  
  Looks like raj might have a point about #5 going by the responses here. (But I will add that as a feature :-) in the doc).
  
  BTW fan.. dont lose hope/heart :-). I think the discussion has been very fruitful. Atleast, I have learnt a lot in this process..
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.210) on: Tue Oct 10 12:28:25 EDT 2000
  
  #5 is a silly point. No one can give me a feeling that the whole song is catchy! Either I find it catchy or I don't. What's catchy is also subjective.
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Tue Oct 10 12:30:52 EDT 2000
  
  Vijay, we need to see how it shot, why there is a change, a MD does not change anything as he likes,he is bound little by the director.
  The director tells him what to do regarding the mood changes etc,
  
  For example: I was really annoyed for just using 8 bars of drum loop in the muqabla in kadalan for the second bgm, but later i found it was shanker who wanted just a drum groove for some n number of minutes,this matched very well with prabhu deva's dance. As far as tamil movies goes our directors play a vital role in the song production.
  For example: in the MR'S anjali, in the "vanam" song...the tune suddenly shiftes to some what sad tune (in second bgm end), A minor chorded guitar score was played, i was wondering why this shift, later in the movie i saw revathi thinking about "Anjali", in between the song. The mood change was required.
  
  The song mood changes based on the lyrics, shot, etc etc. The best part is all these factors are worked out well ahead by the directors. It not you compose anything and we will shoot anything based on it.
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Tue Oct 10 12:42:53 EDT 2000
  
  Some might think if Shanker tells that a "the drum loop" is required, why do we need Arr,
  Arr is required to compose the loop, play it in the proper beat with proper drum sounds and merge it with song at the right point.
  
  
  
  
• From: Krishnamurthy (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Oct 10 13:37:30 EDT 2000
  
  Nice point fan, but I do feel that some (more recently) arr's interludes sound more like a "cut and paste" and have no bearing on the theme of the song. True that it is the director's wants that music directors have to satisfy. But thats one of the places where the composer shows creativity. A composer I feel should not have "memory banks" of music collection can be put when a director wants it, but should create something new for this or that particular song. I guess its easier said than done!
  
  
• From: hari (@ 129.116.226.162) on: Tue Oct 10 15:03:10 EDT 2000
  
  Abt mood changes in the middle of the song...
  
  I think ARR has attempted something in the middle of september maadham - just for a very few bars (probably in the second interlude.. i am not sure) I remember when I was watching the movie - There is a poignant moment in the middle of the fun song. I thought it wasnt handled well by ARR.
  
  hari
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Tue Oct 10 15:24:01 EDT 2000
  
  Fan, kiru and others,
  
  Reg. mood change I agree it depends to a certain extent on the situation, director etc. But the example u are talking about.. 'vaanam namakku veedhi' from Anjali I some how felt that the mood change was gradual and it was'nt abrupt. If u feel this is a highly subjective opinion pl. ignore it.
  
  Whereas in Malrgale malargale the percussion seems to be somewhat abruptly fit in. I think it is this aspect that ARR has to improve upon.
  
  Maybe he could have had a slow drum beat in the background while the Pallavi is being sung and then could have gradually increased the amplitude of the percussion and the tempo of the beats
  in the first interlude or something like that.
  It would have made the shift more gradual, I hope u get the idea.
  
  
  Udhaya,
  In poorkalam Iam talking about the synth interludes and not the chorus. The pallavi is in a sudhha dhanyaasi/Hindolam(?) scale and in the interludes ARR switches to Kaanada. The interlude in fact reminds u strongly of the charanam of mullai malar mele.
  
  In carnatic based songs I guess u have to be careful while doing these scale changes etc. because a raaga can go far enough in conveying the mood of the situation that if u attempt a raga change in the interludes it might spoil the mood of the listener. IMO, ARR could have stuck with the same scale in the interlude also.
  
  Fan, I also agree with u and understand that ARR has to meet the director's requirements. Thats why to mee it seemed that a couple of songs in Hey ram seemed quite odd when listening but seemed OK while watching the movie.
  
  Like i didnt quite get the supposedly Wagnerian end of the song 'vitaaka madhan bhaanam'. It sounded a little abrupt, the change from the folkish feel u get from the Laavani song to the WC-based ending.
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Tue Oct 10 16:13:43 EDT 2000
  
  vijay, best part of film music is we dont follow any classical rules. There is no restriction to stick to one raga. Composers can move as they like as far as they dont sound bad.
  
  I heard a story on the Natakurinji song in Kandukonden Kandukonden. It seems Rajeeve menon heard this raga in one of his friends place. He then went and told arr that he needs a song in that raga, arr then learned the raga perfectly (yes he was not clear about it then!) and did a song for him in the raga.
  I have mentioned this before, one the major plus point of arr is he learns things very very fast.
  Why i say this here because many have already told him his transitions are very fast,
  he is very careful in this for the past few years.
  
  I like his transitions so far in arr's song, they are musicically perfect. Secondly you cannot guess it before. Can someone guess the "athi sithi" chorus (kileye kilye) changes overs after hearing 1st few lines lines.
  
  I am able to guess many new songs of other composers after i hear first 16 bars. It is like people telling getting the entire story after watching the first 10 mins of the movie.
  
  btw:
  As far as i know arr tries his best to get the best mood from singers.
  
  what is known as mood, how do you fix a mood for a song, ? We need to understand this "mood" more clearly.
  
  

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