Pudhumaiyaana Vaarthaigal/Prayogangal

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Pudhumaiyaana Vaarthaigal/Prayogangal Pudhumaiyaana Vaarthaigal/Prayogangal

Topic started by pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on Fri Sep 5 10:20:22 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

Responses:

From: Query_Puriyavillai (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Fri Sep 5 10:25:42 EDT 1997

????#@#$%^
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Sep 5 10:25:43 EDT 1997

Have you guys/gals noticed use of new/non-standard words in TFM ? Or usage of standard words in a novel way ?

Vairamuthu has introduced certain words in TFM.

For example :

Vaanam enakkoru bodhimaram Nobody else has used bodhimaram in any of their songs.

Vaanam en vidhaanam - Vidhaanam - a beautiful word.

Recently in Kadavul there is a song called
Enakku oru raasa venum. In this song the lyricist mentions paLLangkuzhi (remember it ?).

Can you mention such type of words/usage ?
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Sep 5 10:27:04 EDT 1997

To Query_Puriyavillai :

Konjam wait paNNungappa !
From: Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on: Fri Sep 5 10:28:44 EDT 1997

In 'vaa vaa manjaL malarE' in Raajathi raaja the hero describes his lover as 'vaasa karuvEppilayE'. I think that is a first. :-). lyricist: IR.
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Fri Sep 5 10:59:36 EDT 1997

PG:
Is "Vidhanam" a tamil or a sanskrit word? I understand the meaning of "Vidhanam" is a tower? Am I right? But I thought it was a word in Sanskrit.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Sep 5 11:39:15 EDT 1997

Vidhaanam is a thamizh word. It means roof.
From: Ramki (@ ucc216.lab.cc.wmich.edu) on: Fri Sep 5 11:42:23 EDT 1997

In the song 'vetri nichayam'(Annamalai)VMuthu
uses the word 'vritcham'(ovvoru vidhaiyilum
vritcham ozhindhulladhe)which, i guess,is not
a tamil word
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Sep 5 11:52:00 EDT 1997

Kaadhal Oviyam has some really nice karpanai.

Raagam meedhu dhaagam kondu aaRum nindRu pogum

Aatrukku dhaagam edukkiratham !

Nice use of muraN.

TRajander has used muran most effectively in Oru Thalai Raagam.

Idhu kuzhandhai paadum thalaattu
idhu iravu nera bhoopaaLam
meRkil thondrum udhayam
idhu nadhiyilladha udhayam

I don't anybody has made use of such muraN in TFM.

It is a pity that a guy who has written such great songs in Oru Thalai Raagam had to write junk lyrics later.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Sep 5 11:53:28 EDT 1997

Oops !

Typo

idhu nadhiyilladha udhayam
should read
idhu nadhiyilladha odam
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Fri Sep 5 12:15:57 EDT 1997

Ramki, you are right. Vritcham is a sanksrit word for "tree". I think there are some common words in tamil and sanskrit which are accepted in both languages and also have the same meaning.
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Fri Sep 5 12:17:44 EDT 1997

PG:
Sorry to deviate from the topic. "Vidhana" in Kannada means tower. Maybe the word was derived in Kannada and Tamizh from Sanskrit.
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Fri Sep 5 14:54:09 EDT 1997

pg:

ThaNeeril nirkumbodhum viyarppadhum muraN thanae?
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Fri Sep 5 15:24:16 EDT 1997

"Maasi masam aLana ponnu" in Dharmadhurai has a lot of pudhumaiyana or vithyasamana words. I don't remember the stanzas in the song. If someone can recollect it, it will be good to observe that.
From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.135.224) on: Fri Sep 5 22:46:44 EDT 1997

In the movie Manitharil enthanai nirangalaa, there is a wonderful
song by SPB

mazhai tharumo en megam
mayanguthammaa enthan velyaabam

Is this a tamil word? Or did i hear it wrongly?

p.s. isn't anybody citing "telephone manipol" : )
From: pg (@ client-116-15.bellatlantic.net) on: Sat Sep 6 11:31:34 EDT 1997

To Rajaraman :

I haven't heard that song but from the context it looks like Vaalibam
From: Ramki (@ b224.bernhard.wmich.edu) on: Sat Sep 6 12:09:48 EDT 1997

Rajaram it is 'mayangadhu amma endhan ullam yaavum'(SPB serthu paadittar thaalam thappaama irukke)
From: Ravy (@ ww-tp06.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Sep 6 12:39:02 EDT 1997

Ramki & Rajaraman:

It is 'mayangudhamma eNNangaL yaavum' - it is a beautiful song and a nice humming by Shylaja.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tb61.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Sep 8 09:52:22 EDT 1997

This falls under the usage of standard words in novel ways.

From Moonraam Pirai:
Vaan engum thanga viNmeengal vizhi imai mooda
Sooriyan vandhu kadal kuLithaerum naeram
Vaanil oru Deepaavali
Vaanil oru Deepaavali seems new. (Is the singer SPB? Who is the MD?)

From Iruvar:
Neela niram izhandhu vittaal vaanil oru koorai illai

I see a lot of the new words/ concepts we've discussed so far relate to the sky. Coincidence?
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Mon Sep 8 10:42:21 EDT 1997

To Kanchana :

MD for Moondram Pirai ? Boy, you sure are out of touch. Anyway it is SPB and MD is IR.

This song has got one of the longest Pallavis in TFM. Another one : Thamthana Thamthana ThaaLam varum from Niram Maraatha pookkaL.

New word : MannavaLe MannavaLe from Thandhu Vitten Ennai. The song is 'Mannavane Mannavane Manasukketha chinnavane' . SJ sings Mannavane. The lyricist does not know what word to use when SPB sings so he coins a new word 'MannavaLe MannavaLe manasukketha chinnavaLe'
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tb63.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Sep 8 13:32:01 EDT 1997

PG:
Thought it was IR & SPB--didn't want to risk saying anything definitive just in case. Who is the lyricist for that song?
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tb63.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Sep 8 14:00:15 EDT 1997

PG:
One thought: instead of using non-existing words like "mannavaLe" which goes a tad beyond the normal poetic license, couldn't the lyricist have said ennavaLe ennavaLe ennaichaerndha chinnavaLe or something similar for SPB? It wouldn't have comprmised the song or the tune I think. (I haven't heard the song, so cannot judge it too much.)
From: pg. (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Mon Sep 8 14:30:36 EDT 1997

Lyricist for
Vaan engum thanga viNmeengal vizhi imai mooda
Sooriyan vandhu kadal kuLithaerum naeram
Vaanil oru Deepaavali

is Vairamuthu.

Yes, ennavale ennavale is a good substitute for mannavale and it rhymes with mannavane .

But lyricist generally don't think like you do. Mannavale rhymes with Mannavane, fits in the tune and if the word does not exist i the Tamil landuage then too bad.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-te62.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Sep 8 19:17:52 EDT 1997

PG--major digression & an alternative thought to my previous thought:
You think Vairamuthu was being very progressive by creating a "PeNN Paal" where none existed? Man+avan=Mannavan, so why not Man+avaL=MannavaL, and make everyone equal? Are there any grammatical rules in Thamizh which forbid this combination? (Sorry for "kuttai kuzhappufying" like this.)
From: Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on: Mon Sep 8 21:21:45 EDT 1997

Kanchana: I do not think the lyricist of this song was diamandu. This movie came after IR and VM split up.
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Tue Sep 9 08:16:48 EDT 1997

PG: Oru kuttu; Thamthana, thamthana thaLam is from pudhiya varpugaL - not niram mAradha pookkaL.
From: Idhayan (@ socks7d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Tue Sep 9 17:09:51 EDT 1997

In MASI MASAM...
leelavinodham....kaman kavithavilasam...
What do that kavithavilasam mean?
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Tue Sep 9 17:55:25 EDT 1997

Thanx Idhayan, Atlast, someone has written what I had in mind fromr MASI MAASAM.. Can anyone recollect the whole song?
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Wed Sep 10 08:28:56 EDT 1997

Idhayan:

Kavithavilasam roughly means abundant knowledge in kavidhai. Here vilasam has nothing to do with 'address'.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Wed Sep 10 09:38:25 EDT 1997

I was listening to Muthaana Muthallavo by PS and there is a very different uvamai in the song : maavadu kaNNallavo. Who is the lyricist for this song ?
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Wed Sep 10 13:05:33 EDT 1997

Movie: kannae kaniyamudhae
paadal: ninnaiyae radhiyenru ninaikkiraenadi kannammaa
Written by: subramaniya baarathi

Note the following different words used in the song:

ninnaiyae radhiyenru ninaikkiraenadi kannammaa
thannaiyae sakiyenru charanam eydhinaen
...
ponnaiyae nigarththa maeni minnaiyae nigarththa saayal (2)
pinnaiyae nithya kanniyae (2)
...
yaavumae sugamunikkoar eesanaam enakkum thoatram
From: Ravi (@ hope.cs.umass.edu) on: Wed Sep 10 15:08:45 EDT 1997

cp: intha postingukku appuram itha ezhuthavE enakku koochchamA irukku. :).
Was listening to nErukku nEr.. finally found out what the first line in a song was: 'thudikkinra kaadhal thummalai pOndrathu eppavum varlaam evar kandaar'. aiyO kaadhalai eppadi kEvalappadutharaangappa. :(
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Wed Sep 10 15:23:34 EDT 1997

Ravi:
You are right. Nowadays the lyrics are just too bad. You cannot just sit and see "oLiyum oliyum" with elders or children anymore because it is an embarassment sometimes.

Here is a question:
In "Kadal meengal", the song "thAlattudhE" goes like this:

thalattudhE vaanam thaLLadudhE mEgam
thALAmal madi meedhu tharmeega kalyanam...

What is the meaning of this special word tharmeegam?
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Thu Sep 11 02:29:32 EDT 1997

CP

I do not know the meaning offhand. But I ca refer to contexts. For eg. If there is a severe train accident, the railway minister accepts moral responsibility and resigns though he is not directly responsible for it.

ithai thamizil, 'amaichchar thaarmIgap poruppu ERRu pathavi vilaginaar' enRu kURuvaargaL. So 'thaarmIgap poruppu' = moral responsibility.
Similarly, in 'kadal mIngkaL', Kamal and Sujaatha are not married but they unite physically. So though they are not married, their union signifies that indirectly and hence it is a 'thaarmIgak kalyaaNam'.

Does this answer you?

BTW, ungkaL baarathiyaar paadal ennai mei silirkka vaiththu vittathu.
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Thu Sep 11 09:52:07 EDT 1997

Thanks Aravind. Yes, It has answered my question. I love Bharathiyaar's literary pieces. They are usually very forceful and stay in your mind for a long time. And they also influence you so very easily unlike poems from other reknowned people. This is just MY OPINION .
From: Sathiyamurthy (@ 152.148.41.167) on: Thu Sep 11 13:42:36 EDT 1997

cp:
"thaarmigam" is actually a Sanskrit derived word.
It is derived from dharm - dharmik. It roughly means a unwritten code. So thaarmigakkalyaNam will mean a marriage which is not just physical.

Ravi:
I don't think Moondram pirai was after IR-VR split up. They split up sometime after Sindhu Bhairavi and Moondram pirai was much much before that. I'm just guessing that it could be Kannadhasan who wrote "Vaanengum thanga viNmeengaL" b'cos I vaguely remember that "kaNNe kalaimaane" (from the same movie) was Kannadhasan's last song. Can somebody clarify.
From: Sathiyamurthy (@ 152.148.41.167) on: Thu Sep 11 14:49:14 EDT 1997

Ravi :
As an after thought, did you mean the mannavaLe mannavaLe song ? If so my apologies.
From: Ravi (@ hope.cs.umass.edu) on: Thu Sep 11 15:10:33 EDT 1997

SAthiyamurhty: I did mean the mannavaLe song.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Thu Sep 11 16:23:15 EDT 1997

Vaanengum thanga viNmeengal from Moondram piRai is by Vairamuthu.

In the same movie Kannadhaasan wrote kaNNe kalaimane.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Thu Sep 11 16:30:10 EDT 1997

Another PS song with a different use of common words :

kalaimagal kaipporuLe. The lyricist refers to veenai but to call it veenai would be too simple ! (Does kalaimagal have anything else in her hands ?).
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Thu Sep 11 23:49:28 EDT 1997

Just for info.

'vaanengkum thangka' was by VM. There is a line in that song - 'avaL paatham patta maNNai Elam pOdalaam'. intha maathiri varigaLai VMaal mattumE kiRukka mudiyum.

'pUngkaaRRu' was the last complete song of kaviyarasu. He wrote on stanza for 'kaNNE kalaimaanE' and Gangai Amaran completed it.

The other song 'pon mEni' was written by GA.
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Thu Sep 11 23:50:15 EDT 1997

Sorry type error. kaviyarasu wrote one stanza for k.k.maanE.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Fri Sep 12 15:33:13 EDT 1997

To Aravind :

Endha Kaviyarasu. The king or the pretender ?
From: Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on: Fri Sep 19 16:52:58 EDT 1997

I was listening to 'peNalla peNalla' from uzhavan. athula rendaavathu charanam mudiyum pOthu SPB sings.. 'meththayil naanum seeraatta pirantha ?????'. The closest I can approximate is 'mOdaham'. Doesn't make any sense to me. Could people clarify.
From: Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on: Fri Sep 19 16:53:37 EDT 1997

One more clarification.. pl. do not tell me what mOdaham means.. :-)
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Fri Sep 19 17:11:39 EDT 1997

Ravi:
Enna ravi sariya sappidaliya, modaham koLukattainu pattula varum solreengalE :-) ) )
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Mon Sep 22 00:05:23 EDT 1997

Pg

kaviyarasu, mellisai mannar, nadugar thilagam, nadigayar thilagam - ivaiyellaam oruvaruku marrumE sonthamaana pattangkaL. ennathaan Kamal siRappaaga nadiththaalum avar nadigar thilagam aaga mudiyaathu. ennathaan IR siRappaaga isai amaiththaalum avar mellisai mannar aaga mudiyaathu.

So, vaaliyE ninaiththup paarkka muduyaatha pattaththai, vairam eppadi payan paduththalaam?
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Mon Sep 22 01:43:24 EDT 1997

Is it possible that the lyricist wrote
maNNavaLE and not mannavaLE?
(maNNavaLE meaning one who belongs to
this land)

Aravind:
DiamuNduvukku indha kaviyarasu pattam
yaaraavadhu koduththaangaLaa, illai ivaraaga
vaiththuk koNdaaraa?
From: Kanchana (@ ww-pa01.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Sep 22 09:07:17 EDT 1997

PG:
Re kalai magaL kai poruLae question, kalaimagaL kaiyil oalai chuvadigaLum uNdu (namma Ravivarma varaigindra padangaLildhaan--naeril paarthadhillai.)
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tj65.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Sep 22 15:59:23 EDT 1997

PG:
In mettu poadu from Duet, VM has the line paaRaikkuL vaerai poala vetri koLga is new usage in TFM, but mirrors the following 2 lines from a 4-line cheyyuL:
Sathiya Keerthi aNNA:
maNNavaLae (avaL maNN) enru thalaivan thalaiviyai azhaithaal varuvadhu kaduppaa kaadhalaa? :-))
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tj65.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Sep 22 16:13:48 EDT 1997

I thought Kaviyarasu title belonged to Kannadhasan. Is VM being referred to as such nowadays?
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tp01.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Sep 22 20:20:59 EDT 1997

Another way to interpret mannavaLae: instead of the non-existant noun mannavaL, think of it as two separate words man avaL, in which case the line man avaLae man avaLae manasukaetha chinnavaLae means roughly "she is my whole world, and the little one in my heart". Does this credit the lyricist with too much thinking?
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Mon Sep 22 20:39:13 EDT 1997

Sorry folks for the digression. I am having a good laugh at reading
your dissection of mannavaLe

cheers,
aruLarasan
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Mon Sep 22 21:57:14 EDT 1997

Kanchana (& AruLarasan for something more to laugh at):

MannavanE could refer to Raman and
MaNNavaLE could refer to Seetha
(you know Seetha was born from the land).
(viNNavaLE endru solra maathiri maNNavaLE endru sonnaal enna thappu?)
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Mon Sep 22 22:33:35 EDT 1997

Kanchana

Atleast for the past 3-4 years, VM is also referred to as kaviyarasu. inthak kaNraaviyaiellaam paarkkaamal USil irukkak koduththu vaikka vENdum.

Sathiya Keerthi

santhEgamE vENdaam. athu avarE sUttikkoNda pattamthaan.
From: kEttEnE-oru-kElvi (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Tue Sep 23 03:05:27 EDT 1997

Aravind: pidinga oru interesting - REAL story:

It was 1984 - final year (to me & Pagals) TECHOFES
at Guindy Engg. College.
BRaaja & Diamundu were invited. BR was pugaznthufying Diamundu
and mentioning him as adutha Kaviyarasu after Kannadasan....
After the function, there was a small get together having some
snacks - since my friend Gocha was the organizer - I was there.
(Pagalavanum irunthirukanum)
AppO I used to be a hardcore fan of PPP - so me and my group
didn't like mundu being mentioned as Kaviyarasu.
In the get-together, I asked DiaMundu,
"neenga director sonna mAthiri Kannadasanudan compare pannum
aLavukku ungatta thiRami irukkunu ninaikireengaLa"

AvlathAn..He got sooo mad..didn't say a word..
KOBAMA MURAICHUP PARTHAR.

BRaaja got pissed...started viLAsifying me,
"Yov! nee ennaiyA pEsura..ethanai pAttuyA kEtirukka......"

Gocha pArithAbamA muzichu, trying to pacify BR...
nAn hee hee... nu asadu vazinthEn.

PinnaR anthak kElvi kEtathukku PPP nanbargaLidam
irunthu perum pArAttu kidaithathu...
Pagal, what were you thinking about this??

After 10 years, I had a chance to remind this to BR...
that is a different story.

Kaviyarasu is the title given by the Tamilnadu Govt, for their
AsthAna kavinjar...that title belongs to so many other people
also.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-ta03.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Sep 23 09:50:22 EDT 1997

Sathiya Keerthi:
Your explanation of MaNNavalae reflects well on your analytical skills, but credits the lyricist with too much thinking. I don't think the lyricist had anything so profound in his mind.

Thamizhchelvar aruLarasarae:
I'm glad you are amused. What is your perspective on this?

Kadhai Sonna Bones:
What was BR's response when you reminded him of VM?
From: Kanchana (@ ww-ta03.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Sep 23 10:05:56 EDT 1997

Here's a good verse from my favorite song of the 90's en mael vizhundha mazhai thuLiyae, where Vairamuthu goes thru a full song without talking about "vayitrukkum thondaikkum uruLuginra uruvamillaa urundai" and other assorted physiological problems:

maNNai thirandhaal neer irukkum
en manadhai thirandhaal nee iruppai
oliyai thirandhaal isai irukkum
en uyirai thirandhaal nee iruppai
vaanam thirandhaal mazhai irukkum
en vayadhai thirandhaal nee iruppai
iravai thirandhaal pagal irukkum
en imaiyai thirandhaal nee iruppai

All the uvamaigaL sound good.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Tue Sep 23 10:18:49 EDT 1997

To Kanchana :

vaanam thirandhaal mazhai irukkum
en vayadhai thirandhaal nee iruppai

What does this mean ?

The only thing that is really cheap in TN is pattangaL. Just look at any political poster and you will see at least 10 pattams. Even in Tamil Films you see Omakuchi Narasimhan, Thayir Vadai Thesigan, Pakoda Kaadhar, Thengai Srinivasan and innumerable Supreme Stars, Super Stars, Puratchi Thilams, Puratchi Nadigar, Puratchi Thalaiars etc.

Quiz : Who is Chinna Puratchi Thalaivar ?
Hint : Not related to films.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tp02.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Sep 23 12:58:23 EDT 1997

PG:
My interpretation: vayadhu is subbing for aayuL alladhu vaazhnaaL. Therefore, the meaning of that paragraph is en manadhilum, en uyirilum, en vaazhvilum, en kaNNilum neeyae kudi konduLLaai.
An alternate explanation: vayadhu is subbing for paruvam (paruvathu azhagu). Then the meaning is en manadhilum, en uyirilum, en paruva azhagilum, en kaNNilum neeyae kudi koNduLLaai. As you know the line pairs are alternated between the hero & the heroine. Any other explanations are welcome.

Another beautiful verse from a song of yester-years:
aravindha malaroadu anuraaga isai paada
aadhavan udhayam aanaan
(naan seidha pooja palam by A.M.Raja & P.Leela in Gunasundari, I think; I'll check the lyricist name & write later.)
From: Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on: Tue Sep 23 14:30:20 EDT 1997

pg: neenga muNNaaL vaLarppu magana paththi thaanE solareenga?
From: cp (@ 208.206.24.27) on: Tue Sep 23 14:58:57 EDT 1997

PG:
Was it Mu Ka Stalin?
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Tue Sep 23 15:18:30 EDT 1997

man (not maN) means uRuthi (determination). mannavan means
uRuthiyuLLavan. mannavaL means uRuthiyuLLavaL. Therefore we have
to give credit to dia-mundu for creating (if he is the first to use this
word) for creating this word. Many kuRaLs end with
man where this
meaning pops out clearly.

In fact this coinage, according to me, is much more scientific
than oruththan (male form for oruththi).

sathya kIrthi, I really had a good laugh seeing your
interpretation of maNNavaLE as sIthai.

cheers.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-te61.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Sep 23 15:52:51 EDT 1997

aruLarasan:
Please clarify this for us. Doesn't man also mean world, and hence is the root word for mannavan,i.e.,one who rules the world?
From: Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on: Tue Sep 23 19:08:58 EDT 1997

aruLarasan: neenga Eththi vidaamalE diamandukku thalai ganam athigam irukku.. itha ezhuthinathu avar illai. :-)
From: pagalavan (@ shad.cisco.com) on: Tue Sep 23 21:32:45 EDT 1997

pg

chinna puratchi thalaivar-nnu Thirunaavukkarasu-vai azhaikkiRaargaL, avarin seedargaL.
From: pagalavan (@ shad.cisco.com) on: Tue Sep 23 21:43:13 EDT 1997

Sathyakumar

1984-la nee sonna andha BR-VM meetingula naanum irundhEn. nee VM-ik kEttadhum, BR kObaththil, than muththirai petRa muga baavaththOdu unnai muRaiththadhu enakku nalla ninaivil irukku. (BR-in moga baavam, appadiyE, kallukkuL EEram padaththula oru scene-la aruNaa-vidam kObamaa kaththuvaarE, adhE maadhiri irundhuchchi..)
andha nigazhchchikkup pin unakku thani adaiyaaLam kidaiththadhu vERu kadhai..

others
Sorry for digression..
From: mr_ethirkatchi (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Wed Sep 24 07:55:18 EDT 1997

pg:
enna Kalaila veetla sAppAdu pOdaliyA - pattangal
ellAm sAppAtu vishyamA irukku, omapodi, pakOdA,
thair vadai, thEngAi,...

That vuvamai "vayadahai thiranthAl" - is it
vayaththai (stomach) or vayadhai (age) ?
stomachai thiranthAl - kAlaila sApita masAl vadai irukkum
age-ith thirandhAl - apdeenna enna ?? flashbacking !!

Kanchana:
unga "U"na "va"na "mai"yannAvirku explanation thEvai.
konjam "man" "maN" "mun" ithai vittutu vaithukku
vAnga.

Apram BR kathai ennAchu....
I met BR, ofcourse along with friend Gocha, in some
Telugu dubbing session in Prasad studio (nAdodi thendral dubbing, I think)
"ivan numoor (NOV?) Madurai"
"Oh! thambi maduraiyA..enna panreenga.."
blah blah blah
(if you say you are from Madurai, you get special
attention from BR & IR)
When Gocha reminded the VM incident, BR just laughed and said
"AmAm, oru kAlathla criticize panratha accept
pannika mudiyAma irunthOm, apram ellAm athu
pazagip pOchu. For Madurai-sake ippa athu
paththi onnum solla virumbalai - no comments"

After this meeting, when BR came to Toledo, Ohio
along with Sivaji for America Tamil Kooturavu Sanga
nigalchi, couple of years back, again I was there and.....

PagalavA:
appO nee VM fanAchE nee En ennai summA vittA ??

Topic:
There is a song "keeravAni..." apdinnA enna ?
Is it a name of a ragam ??

Also in ???? movie - prabu's 100th movie with meena &
US return actress ???? RUdayakumar's direction -
IR music - there is a very good song starts with some unique
flower name ??? which I never heard of...anybody
know about my ????s.
From: pg (@ igw2.merck.com) on: Wed Sep 24 08:49:34 EDT 1997

Quiz answer :

It is Former-vaLarpu magan Sudhakar. God save TN politics !

To Bones :

The RVU-Prabhu movie is 'Raajakumaaran' - with Meena and Nadhiya. The song is 'Sithagathi pookaLe'
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tb65.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Sep 24 11:37:41 EDT 1997

KaeLviyin Nayagan Bones:

naan enakku purinja arthathai malae solliyirukiraenae, paarkalayaa? PG kaeLvikku keezhayae en badhilum irukkae! konjam scroll panni paarunga. unga artham kooda (flashback--ninaivugal) azhagaagathaan irukkiradhu.
(vayiru illai, vayadhuthaan -- indha Vairamuthu "vayitrukkum thondaikkum uruvamilla urundai uruludhu" appidi ippidinnu adikkadi ezhudharadhunaalae ungaLukku indha sandhaegam varradhu niyaayamthaan.)

Sithagathi poo -- nija poo?
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tb65.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Sep 24 12:27:21 EDT 1997

I had mentioned the following lines above from naan seidha pooja palam from Gunasundari by A.M.Raja & P.Leela.
aravindha malaroadu anuraga isai paada
aadhavan udhayam aanaan
Lyrics: Ramaiahdoss MD: Ghantasala
From: Ramki (@ csi13.cs.wmich.edu) on: Wed Sep 24 13:16:03 EDT 1997

Bones neenga solre andha keeravani song is
from 'paaadum paravaigal'(telugu dubbing).Padathile namme Bpriyavoda name
Keeravani(oru azhagaana raagathin amsamaaan peiyar).Idhu Irajavukku raasiyaana raagam nnu sollalam..avar indha ragathiel potta ellam pattume super duper hit
From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.135.224) on: Wed Sep 24 21:59:17 EDT 1997

SK

you might know that Maragathamani is known as
Keeravani in telugu circles for his "exceptional"
handling of the raagam.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tp03.proxy.aol.com) on: Sun Sep 28 13:03:18 EDT 1997

One beautiful prayogam:
un kannathin meedhae naanum kannam vaipadhaal
ennai kaLvan enru eNNi neeyum bayandhu vidaadhae
(from kaadhal nilavae kanmani Radha by PBS)
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Sun Sep 28 20:06:37 EDT 1997

un kannaththin mIdhu kaNNam vaipadhAl

endRu irunthAl innum chuvaiyAga irunthirukkum.

Infact that's what the poet meant to write but took, apparently,
poetic liberty to confuse n with N.
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Sun Sep 28 20:10:08 EDT 1997

Continuing the mAdhavip pon mayilAL discussion from other thread,
I love the following varigaL.

.... piRai netRiyil kuzhalAda - konda
kuLir nilavin mugaththil nizhalAda
kalai mAnin inam koduththa vizhiyAda - andha
vizhivazhi AsaigaL vazhindhOda
From: Kanchana (@ ww-ti02.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Sep 29 09:09:02 EDT 1997

Those are beautiful lines. But the lyricist starts with "moongil pirai netriyil"..what is the precise meaning?

Also, "kannam vaippadhu" enbadhu thiruduvadhu enrudhaanae artham as in kannakkoal vaithal "n" thappaagath theriyavillai. thamizhchelvarae, ungaL artham enna?
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Mon Sep 29 09:22:46 EDT 1997

Kanchana: I think in moongil pirai netriyil'
moongil refers to the whiteness of 'kuruthu (tender) moongil and pirai netriyil means a downward curving forehead. So the kavignar referes to her forehead as white as kuruthu moongil and pirai pol vaLaintha nettri. Am I close enough?
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Mon Sep 29 09:29:06 EDT 1997

Kanchana & AruLarasan,

Kanchana is right. it is 'kannam' not kaNNam for
thirududhal.
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Mon Sep 29 20:17:24 EDT 1997

I am slightly confused. kaNNam seems to be cheeks and
kannam thirudargaL vaiththuvittu chellum mark. In any case
one is kannam (mark) and the other is kaNNam (cheeks).

Therefore I believe that kannam repeating twice in that line doesn't make
sense. May be the following sounds better and correct.

un kaNNaththinn (not kannaththin) mIdhu kannam (not kaNNam) vaipadhAl
ennaik kaLvannendRE eNNI nIyum bayanthuvidAthE.

PS: In order to keep the digression at bay, can someone please
email me personally what they think about the word kaNNi vedi, basically
its etymology. Thanks.
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Mon Sep 29 21:59:52 EDT 1997

Kanchana

I think the 'maathavip pon mayilaaL' line starts as 'kooal piRai neRRiyil' and not 'moongil piRai neRRiyil'. koonal piRai is the shape where the moon is like an inverted bowl. Like a koon vizuntha muthugu (bent back). So Vaali is comparing her forehead to the moon which has the shape of an inverted bowl.
From: pags (@ shad.cisco.com) on: Mon Sep 29 22:04:49 EDT 1997

Kanchana

I agree with Arvind. Yes, Vaali has used koonal piRai netRi not moongil piRai netRi
From: pagalavan (@ waterboy.cisco.com) on: Tue Sep 30 00:18:38 EDT 1997

aruLarasan

There was a query about maadhavip pon mayilaaL in some thread (I could not find) by you. Kavignar Vaali has refered to silappathikaara maadhavi only. Here is the meaning :

naattiyaththil siRandhavaL maadhavi (aadhaaram : silappadhikaaram); adupOl aadalil siRandhadhu mayil. ingu kavignar naayagiyin nadanaththai, (aadal kalaith thiRamaiyai), andha maadhaviyOdum, thOgai mayilOdum oppidugiRaar; maadhavip pon mayilaaL thOgai viriththaaL enbadhu oru azhagaana uruvagam

iru malargaL padaththil, indhap paadalukku nadanam aadiyavar naattiyap pEroLi padmini. kavignarin maadhavi & mayil oppumai naattiyap pErOLi padmini-kkaagavE ezhuthap pattadhu en ninaikkiREn.
From: aruLarasan (@ newton.umsl.edu) on: Tue Sep 30 12:14:50 EDT 1997

Thanks pagalavan. Sounds convincing. I was thinking in the line
of some bird of the hen family the females of which have thOgai
and which might build nest on the mAdhavip pandhal. Too much
to ask from a poet?

Regarding kannam and kaNNam, I found that my first remark was correct.

kannam = cheek
kaNNam = kaLvargaL vaikkum kuRi

therefore, I prefer,

un kannaththin mIdhu kaNNam vaipadhAl ...

kAnchanA and others, hope I`m not irritating by poking at this
one thing for quite some time now.

Cheers.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tk42.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Sep 30 12:30:10 EDT 1997

aruLarasan:
Thank you. I guess I was wrong all these years when I thought kannam (cheeks) and kannam vaithal (thievery) had the same "n"; i do not recall the word "kaNNam" but may be 2 decades away from ilakkiya thamizh does that to a person. In fact, that was why I thought those lines were special, because of the play in words.

Pags & Aravind:
thx for reminding me it is "koonal pirai".
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Tue Sep 30 22:40:36 EDT 1997

aruLarasan

I think both words are 'kannam' with 2 suzhi Na. There is no word like 'kaNNam'. 'kannam vaippathu' is the process of making a hole in the wall of any house, without anybody knowing about it. It was an easy process because, in those days, walls were made of sand.

'kannam vaippathu' also can mean 'keeping one's cheeks'. So 'kannaththin mIthu kannam vaippathu' can mean two things:

1) placing one's cheeks on someone else's
2) making a hole on someones's cheeks, to enter inside.

Here, the meanings are handled wonderfully.

BTW, I don't think 'kaNNi vedi' and 'kannam vaippathu' have the same root. 'kannam vaippathu' is a silent process and cannot be associated with vedi.
From: Pagalavan (@ waterboy.cisco.com) on: Wed Oct 1 00:58:45 EDT 1997

aruLarasan & kanchana

Arvind is right about kannam. It is the same word having two meanings. There is (I think) no word in Tamil as kaNNam
From: kaNN(nn)appan (@ bones.deneb.com) on: Wed Oct 1 05:15:02 EDT 1997

kanna pinnanu ezuthum kannan(ma)pargaLE:

rendu suzi "na" irunthAl athu sAtharana kannam (cheeks)
moonu suzi "na" irunthAl athu "amul baby" kannam !!!

(en kannathai pidichu kiLLA thOnuthA ? asku pusku!)

Topic: Prayogangal (usage-ku azagu tamiz - thanks pg)

vaali writes in Karapagam "pakathu veetu paruva.."

manasukkuLE thErOtta mai viziyil vadam pidichAn

for the mind's karpanai horse the eyes are the reign !!!
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Wed Oct 1 09:37:25 EDT 1997

Oops; Thanks Aravind for clarifying about Koonal. I haven't listened to Madhavi pon mayilaL for a long time. So when I saw 'moongil' and it sounded right to me and started my explanation (aaL kidaicha podhumae).

Also thanks for correcting the kannam confusion. Oru nimizham aadi poyittaen. ennada namakku theriyma 'kaNNam'-nu oru tamizh word. After seeing several postings endorsing kaNNam I started doubting my tamil knowledge and also PBS's pronounciation.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tj62.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Oct 1 12:01:12 EDT 1997

To everyone who was involved in the kannam conversation:
therrppu sonnadhaRku nandri. 17 varusham U.S.'ilae irundhadhaal thaai mozhi kooda marandhaenae endru manam nondhu vittaen.
nenjam maRakavillai.......

Now, let me repeat those lines with the word play I enjoy:
un kannathin meedhae naanum kannam vaippadhaal
ennai kaLvan endru eNNi neeyum vilagi vidaadhae
From: Kanchana (@ ww-te65.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu Oct 2 12:32:15 EDT 1997

Song from "Devaraagam" SPB?:
karuvaNNa vaNdugaL un kuzhalgaL
undhan netri mugathin aNikalangaL
maaRanin ambugaL iru puruvam
neeloaRpanangaL un vizhigaL
I've heard of karuvaNdu-kaNNgaL uvamai before. karuvaNdu kuzhalgaL? is that new usage?
From: Tamizhanban (@ mib18.eng.ua.edu) on: Thu Oct 2 23:58:51 EDT 1997

To Kanchana:
kuzhalgaL = koonthal
pinniya koonthal karuniRa naagam(is this also a new usage!!??)
enru aboorva raagathil varuvathu pOl
paLa paLa, vazhu vazhuvena pinniya koonthal karuvaNNa vaNdugalin meRppuRam pOl uLLathu enru ezhuthiyuLLar enru ninaikkirEn. ithu puthumaiyaana prayOgam enru ninaikkirEn.

Allathu koonthalin karumaiyai mattum karuvaNNa vaNdin karumaiyOdu oppidugiRarO ennamO!
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Mon Oct 6 10:09:21 EDT 1997

Kanchana:

correction for 'kadhal nilavae' song.

un kannathin meedhae naanum kannam vaippadhaal
ennai kaLvan endru neeyum eNNi vidaadhae

Sometimes PBS's pronounciation leaves much to be desired; in Nilavukku en mel ennnadi kobam' from Policekaran MagaL he pronounces 'kulungum mundhanai' as 'kulungum mundhaNai'.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-te61.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Oct 6 11:39:47 EDT 1997

Ravy:
Thank you. Sometimes PBS's accented pronunciation also gives a charm to sme of his songs.
From: Kannan (@ 130.160.32.53) on: Sun Oct 12 19:22:07 EDT 1997

guys!
I found bunch of songs with interesting lines:
In 'pani vizhum malarvanam'(ninaivellaam nithyaa)
'irubathu nilavugaL
nagamengum oLividum' - new usage, i think.

regarding 'kannam'
from the song 'oru jeevan azhaiththathu'
'ennai kELaamal kannam vaiththaay
nenjil kannam vaithaay'

in the song 'aavaaram poovu aarEzhu naaLaa'(achchamillai achchamillai)
'paarvaiyilE kelichchaaLE
puLiyangomba pudichchaalE'
what's this word 'kelichchaaLE' means?
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Sun Oct 12 22:46:00 EDT 1997

Kannan

'geliththal' means 'velluthal' (winning). It is used in some parts of Tamilnadu. So 'pArvayilE gelichchALE' means 'She won through her eyes'.

Was reminded of another strange usage in 'thAmarai pUvukkum' from 'pasumpon'. The hero comments on something and heroine says:

Fem: nilA kaRaiye azichchAlum
unnai thiruththa mudiyAthu

Male: purattip pOttu adikkAma
Amai Odu udaiyAthu

Vairamuththuvin intha varigaLukku enna poruL? If you feel what he tries to convey is too vulgar, reply to me directly by mail. Also, has 'Amai Odu' (tortoise's shell) been used before/after in TFM?
From: Anand (@ galileo.ece.sc.edu) on: Fri Nov 14 23:56:10 EST 1997

In the film Duet Vairamuthu handles the word "Navindrathu"...which is sounding good. I am able to make out the meaning with the context, but am not able to figure out the exact meaning.

Anjali... Anjali.. pushpaanjanli.....
......
.....

Anjali perai solli navindrathu mullaye

Kaviyarasu Vairamuthu has handled some beautiful words in the songs composed by AR. One other eg would be Iruvar, narumugaye narumugaye... nee oru nazhigai nillai
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tj02.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Nov 15 21:33:40 EST 1997

Anand:
The actual lines are:
anjali paerai sonnaen
avizhndhadhu mullaiyae

My interpretation: mullai poo bloomed when the name "anjali" was uttered.

Separately, there is a word "navindradhu" in senthamizh, meaning "sonnadhu".

Hope this helps.
From: Kumar Venkataraman (@ cache-eb.superlink.net) on: Thu Nov 20 13:09:03 EST 1997

How about this cool song from Rayil Payanangalil:

"vasantha kaalangal isaindhu paadungal"

Beautiful handling in this line:

"paavai soodum vaadai koodap perumai kollumadi
thaevi undhan saevai enru idhazhgal oorumadi
idhazhgal oorumadi...idhazh...kal...oorumadi"

That brings up a question about this overused phrase:

"thaevai undhan saevai" enraal enna?
Also, please explain what "dhinasari ennai anusari" means. Figures in second stanza of "vizhiyilae mani vizhiyil" song from Nooraavadhu Naal.

SVeShekar baashaiyil sollappoanaal, "Ennavoa solreegannu theriyudhu, aanaa ennannu puriyala!"
From: Kumar Venkataraman (@ cache-eb.superlink.net) on: Thu Nov 20 13:13:07 EST 1997

Sorry to post again! But I had to come up with this:

"ennarumaik kaadhalikku vennilaavae
nee ilaiyavalaa mooththavalaa vennilaavae?"

How better can one relate his love's beauty to the moon?!
From: Pagalavan (@ batboy.cisco.com) on: Thu Nov 20 20:38:52 EST 1997

Kumar
thEvai unthan sEvai and thinasari ennai anusari - intha iraNdu varigaLum ERaththaaza orE karuththaith thaan veLippaduththiginRana.
anusari in this context means to "consider". I think both the lines are sung by male characters.
From: Kumar Venkataraman (@ cache-eb.superlink.net) on: Fri Nov 21 09:33:55 EST 1997

Illai Pagalavan.

The verse containing "konjam dhinasari ennai anusari" in the song "vizhiyilae mani vizhiyil" is sung by SJaanaki.
From: Pagalavan (@ batboy.cisco.com) on: Fri Nov 21 10:14:02 EST 1997

kumar

Thanks for the correction. On a revised thought anusari (exactly) means to be considerate.
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Thu Dec 18 14:29:26 EST 1997

I found the following lines interesting.

malarE malarE nI yArO
vanjanai seithavar thAn yArO unaich
chUdik koNdadhum peN thAnE pinnar
thUkki yeRinthadhum avaL thAnE

in the song

arugil vandhAL urugi nindRAL anbu thandhAlE from kaLaththUr kaNNammA (?).

in those lines the malar refers to an AN (male). i wonder if there
are any such lines in any other songs. isn't it boring to see
malar thEn thendRal ... refer to only peN always?

aruLarasan.
From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Thu Jun 18 21:53:47 EDT 1998

Here are some usages that strike me as peculiar (not necessarily in a bad way):
"Muthumai Oru Naal Namai Vandhu Theendum
Moondraam Kaalil Naam Nirka Vendum"

The "Moondraam Kaalil" refers to a walking stick, a unique analogy which quite possibly VM stole from the Great Pudhukavithai Poet Abdhul Ragumaan.

In the song, "Andhimalli Chendaada Allivizhi Vandaada" the following expression appears:
"Aanandha Thuraimugam Iduvoam"
Is Thuraimugam a reservoir or a harbor? Anyway it kind of stuck me as an odd usage. Can someone explain the analogy?

R.V. Udhayakumar uses some rich words with the folksy appeal to them.
From "Paadi Parandha Kili",
"Nellarukkum Solai Onnu Sellarichu Poanathadi"
I haven't heard Sellarichu used in songs before, but the word just fit perfectly as rhyme and meaning in that song.

Also, in the same song, "Saethaaram Senjavaru Yaaru Yaaru", Saethaaram is another rich word used in a fresh way.

In "Koondukkulla Onna Vechu",
"Eesaana Moolayila Lesaana Pallichattham"
brings the dark village homes at night instantly to mind.

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