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Western & Indian

Topic started by Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on Thu Aug 23 17:21:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have seen the following comments a lot of times in this DF.

"the instruments used are western" .... "This song is like "western music" " etc..

I want to know, what is the definition of tamil sounding music and what are tamil instruments? I asked this question to a well know lyricist and he asked me to look up "silapathigaram" for the answer. I dont think he was trying to answer my question.

Among the instruments that have been used in the last 4 decades by tfm MD's I think a majority of instruments were western.

So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?

for e.g I wud say guitar, violin, flute, drums etc as western instruments and tabala as Indian (although i dunno if its tamilian) ------ to shatter some myths about the western/indian definitions.

so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades. and shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.

I am more interested in tamilain than Indian.

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Responses:

• From: ravi (@ 167.230.227.60) on: Thu Aug 23 19:02:55 EDT 2001
  
  r u sure flute is a western instrument ? Lord Krishna is supposed to have played the flute.
  I think there are different kinds of flute and some are western and some are indian.
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.168.237) on: Thu Aug 23 19:04:55 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath
  
  This is what we already know but I'll just restate it again to start the discussion :)
  
  Since we are speaking about TFM...I think it'd be safe to say that TFM is only a reflection of current social trends...and since our society is under Western onslaught..right from the pant, shirt that we wear to English that we learn in school etc...TFM has also adapted a lot of western instruments and influences to inspire and reflect the dreams of the common man...this is just the big picture seen from a cultural and social angle..specifics more knowledgeable people will provide the answer..
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.168.237) on: Thu Aug 23 19:06:41 EDT 2001
  
  Hey..looks like Ravi has beaten me to it...anyway he has brought a valid point to notice - the flute.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Thu Aug 23 22:20:42 EDT 2001
  
  Violin is also an 'Western' instrument but it can be used to play 'Indian' music (you can play gamakams on it). 'Indian' music for TFM is basically carnatic music (folk is the roots of carnatic music). Carnatic music is exemplified by niravals, gamakams and brighas etc. The 7 note rAgam system (ArOhanam/avarOhanam) is also one of the pillars of carnatic music. The concept of thalams which synchronize with the notes of the melody is very much indian. L Subramaniam is known to play a single rAgam to a sequence of different thAlams (thAla kattugal). In tamil poetry, the words are split into asai, seer, thalai were each asai corresponds to a 'beat' in the thAlam. Once a lyric is written the thalam is fixed (reason why people like IR want the lyrics to be written to the tune) Early TFM music was purely carnatic. Later Western Classical music concepts of harmony/chords were extensively used. When a tune is devoid of any 'carnatic' touches and heavy in chords/harmony it becomes more 'western'. Currently, I see posters here referring to current pop/rock music from the West as classical music. This is not a precise definition. The concept of percussion based rhythm were brought by african slaves to America and this gave rise to jazz/blues/rock and its popular versions now.
  
  MDs like IR can create fusion/crossover songs which defy classification as Indian or otherwise. The songs seem to be played according to 12-note/per octave system with chords but it still sounds Indian. Basically, the songs can be played on keyboards producing identical music. There are allegations that IR does not allow people to improvise as this will affects the chords (notes played in parallel). So I think the 'Indian' effects comes in the way the notes of the tune are strung together(just my theory).
  
  Although, I am told the 12-note system was known to early tamils (a 2-century old veenai found near thanjAvur). In our system, a corresponding note in the second octave is exactly double the frequeny of the prev one. Whereas in a piano, each note in a octave is a 12 root of the interval. So if you press one key and press another one after 12 keys the freq is not exactly double. Carnatic musicians criticise 'Hindustani musicians just for this, for 'selling' out because they use harmonium.
  
  I think I have captured all the major points, now I will have to look to the experts to discuss these things in more detail. (please note I am not music savvy, so please bear with me if there are any errors)
  
  Now read this patiently and then probably the experts will be kind enough to answer your questions.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Thu Aug 23 22:43:20 EDT 2001
  
  Kiru:
  
  Can you get some more info on your last but second paragraph ? IT seems like an interesting thing to discuss.
  
  
• From: NCR (@ 12.87.64.219) on: Thu Aug 23 22:59:09 EDT 2001
  
  Good topic Barath and Kiru some great info. Please see the following links for some info an just Indian instruments. I am not sure how relevant to this topic, just some info on Indian instruments
  
  http://chandrakantha.com/articles/indian_music/instruments.html
  
  This one has Sir CV Raman's articles on Indian instrments with some science involved.
  
  http://www.geocities.com/krishna_kunchith/raman/index.html
  
  One more link on Indian instruments,
  
  http://www.indianmusicals.com/
  
  
  
• From: KS (@ 166.44.246.65) on: Fri Aug 24 01:46:34 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath,
  
  /*
  So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?
  */
  
  In the beginning, it used to be both but over a period of time things have changed because of exposure/reach/openness/innovativeness and now it has become more of the carnatic/tamil folk touch that the song gets than the instruments themselves (not that u did'nt know!!!).
  
  And as ravi said, the flute(s) that we have been using is different from the flute(s) weterners use. I'm sure you would have noticed the difference between flute(s) used in Indian concerts/recitals and western concerts. I can make out quiet a few of them by seeing them or by hearing their sound but I believe there are a lot more varieties which would be bouncers to me.
  
  Coming back to songs, now-a-days, as most of the MDs are using more western(/modern!!?) instruments and the tunes have less of "carnatic/tamil folk touch" they sound more western or less Tamilian!! (generalising it, read Tamilian as Indian). Unfortunately, those few who try to sound more Indian are not being met with success today because of the N reasons that have been discussed in other threads. The main reason for this, as I see it, is because of the mentality/taste of today's youth (again, because of those N reasons probably). I say today's youth because primarily it is them who make these things a success or a failure.
  
  
• From: KS (@ 166.44.246.65) on: Fri Aug 24 01:47:25 EDT 2001
  
  contd...
  
  This bothers me as they don't seem to realise what they are encouraging. They don't seem to realise the fact that they are causing the failure of their culture by making a success of others. Not that the success of other culture(s) is wrong, but not at the expense of ours. And that is purely in our hands. Creativity, innovativeness, trend-setting, simply being different are all fine, but at what cost is what matters.
  
  My point - using western instruments and using today's or future technology is good but we should not stop sounding Indian. While most of the Indian instruments can be mimicked using today's technology, they cannot substitute for their natural ones. We should continue using the Indian instruments, atleast, as part of keeping up our culture. That nativity is what we should not lose. In order to expand our reach, we should not start sounding like them. That would then be us imbibing others culture (which we are good at:-)). Instead, we should retain our nativity, and yet, be able to reach out to them. That would be taking our culture to them.
  
  Bharath, in a different thread, u had said somthing to the effect that we tamilians lack self-pride. It is true to quiet an extent in the case of IFM.
  
  During the last decade, how many lullabies, devotionals, sad, folk and melody songs have been there in Indian movies, moreso, in Tamil movies!? How many of those sounded more "indian/tamilian"? Any guesses as to which MD provided most of those!? How many of us have the patience to listen to those and how many will like them!?
  
  Of course, I do realise that time is a major deciding factor. I could have cited a few songs as exs. but stopped myself from doing so. Yellathukkam neram varanam illaya!!? Yenakku yen indha vambu...:-))
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Fri Aug 24 01:49:50 EDT 2001
  
  MS, if you are referring to the paragraph about natural scale and log scale..then see the 'Swaras and Swarasthanas' in P Sriram's primer http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~sundar/rmic/kar-primer/HTMLprimer/carnatic.primer.html
  
  When I find time I will search for the link on the veena.
  
  BTW, veenai is a form of yAzh..and yAzh/lute is common in various cultures, just like flute. A flute made of a bone with 5 or 7 holes was found as a fossil dating to pre-civilization days. Note the concept of octave has also been simultaneously discovered by various civilizations. This is one of the reasons I feel music can be mathematically analyzed in my opinion (Hari will provide the counter arguments now :))
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on:
  
  KS ..exactly my feelings/opinion. Also, I dont like the current trend of adding arabic touch/jewish touch etc. If you are into some school of music..just dont stop with one song..continue with that line ..so that there is some depth to the work. I dont like this 'one-off' approach..works for novelty/immediate commercial value. but no long lasting musical worth.
  
  (Anyways, it is my opinion. I will not argue on this. But we can talk about Indian/Western).
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Fri Aug 24 06:25:14 EDT 2001
  
  try to get timestamp
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Fri Aug 24 18:14:42 EDT 2001
  
  superb!
  
  Thanx a million Kiru/NCR/KS,
  
  your postings were extremely informative.
  
  wonderful collection of links.
  
  Now there are two aspects behind my reasonings
  
  1)arivumathi the lyricist, asked me to refer to silapathigaram when I contested his definition of Tamil music. That got me wondering if "silapathigaram" was a significant component of our musical tradition! if so are MD's aware of it! and wud learning that be any use at all.
  
  2) the craving of foregn stuff by indians:
  
  well! this talk should have been going on in every "arattai session". So china, germany, france are reluctant towards accepting and promoting foriegn goods!
  
  we on the other hand are not only promoting and living on it but actually proud of using foreign "sarakkU' and speaking "queens english" and her left foot...
  
  A friend of mine mentioned that tamil nadu and tamil cinema was more tending towards hollywood style of functioning that other parts of India. he said the concept of private satellite channels, the music video style and the music is more of a hollywood variety and this friend was actually proud of it and felt superior to his hindi counterparts.
  
  so as KS's post clearly suggests. we are proud of knowing what happens in czekoslovakia and budapest that we dont know on which side of duraisamy subway is west mambalam!
  
  That infact says a lot about globalization of Indian market. have anyone of u wondered what happened to "gold spot" drink or the "indian cartoon industry". it smarts when it hits tfm but we did not notice it when we drank coke etc!
  
  how fair it is! americans and europeans had over a 150 years to come up with stuff and gadjets and the indians got impatient in 40 years and decided to buy from outside.
  
  
• From: rf (@ 152.163.204.61) on: Fri Aug 24 20:04:16 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath, very strange. only today i was thinking about our 'eagerness' for everything other than what we can do or what we have done. It is a good attitude, brings out the humility in us, but other xountries are indeed taking advantage of our weak spot. We as a nation lack self esteem though we are high in the self-respect department. That point about 150 years, exactly, we Indians are in a hurry to please others, no wonder as one society we cannot see our own achievements in a better light. But think again, is there an India if not for the British. would we have got to tolerate one another's language? so, what would have happened to IR?!!!!! I guess, it is a question of give and take. we have given everything and taken nothing much!!!!
  
  

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