Topic started by Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on Sat Apr 6 09:58:32 EST 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
Film Directors don't Act. Film Singers rarely Compose. Film Actors seldom sing (in every film.)
Yet, Film MDs sing. What could be the motivation behind this phenomenon?
Setting our preferences aside, could we share our thoughts on this blurring of professional identities?
Admittedly, there are a few songs that turn out to be appropriate (random example: Chandrabose's "Yendi Muththamma," MSV's "Sambo Siva Sambo" SDB's "Wahan Kaun Hai Tera" RDB's "Mehbooba" IRs "Aathadi Paavadai Kaathada" ) - but are these passable tunes enough to qualify MDs as Singers? Or should we just consider them to be fleeting (and interesting) abberations?
Here are few hypotheticals:
1. It's their tune, so why shouldn't they?
2. They know their compositions like nobody else.
3. There is a famine of good, trained singers.
4. It is cost-effective.
5. They can get away with it, thanks to their status as "genius" MDs.
6. Their fan-following pressures them to do so.
7. They know Music, so they should know how to Sing.
8. All successful MDs are failed singers, and this is their way to exact revenge for all the rejection.
Let's be critical (without being crass) in this investigation. If you have specific examples of Singer MDs hits and misses - and have any "formal" insights into their (non)singing - it would be a great help if you can share it with us all.
Responses:
- From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50)
on: Sat Apr 6 10:19:37 EST 2002
If the Udit Narayans, Sukhwinder Singhs, Vijays of the world can sing, why not the MSVs, IRs and ARRs?
I think they sing for a genre of songs that they think they are the best suited for. IR sings sad, philosophical songs. ARR sings those special songs that are not lip-synched by the actors (Dil Se, Mustafa & other youthful bits)
- From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63)
on: Sat Apr 6 10:31:47 EST 2002
s0 - That is very true. The singers you mentioned above - sing adequately well in HFM (their tamizh forays are a different story.)
Yes, the MSVs IRs and ARRs can sing (who's to tell them not to?). But does that fact alone qualify them as Singers? (I know, given the current state of film music, that might sound like a foregone conclusion?)
- From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63)
on: Sat Apr 6 10:44:39 EST 2002
The issue of "genre" based songs is an interesting one. Pathos, Joy, Chumma Timepass numbers, Romantic, Devotional/Philosophical etc...But these types of songs have been handled with aplomb by SPB, KJY, PJC (in tamizh) - with flawless rendering and emotion. So what niche are the singing MDs carving for themselves - one that has already been consolidated with class (and greater success) - by the singers I've mentioned above? There is more to this than just if they can sing, why can't I? That's a bit reductive, IMO.
- From: vgs (@ 157.161.133.194)
on: Sat Apr 6 10:57:24 EST 2002
Naaz, I would like to add one more to your list of "why MDs sing". That would be "sentiment" or "superstition" whichever way you would like to see it. I have heard that there was a sentiment in thamizh cinema that if IR sings the title song, the film would be a sure hit. I was a bit sceptical so I looked up the numbers and I found quite a lot of songs which added weight to this theory. I actually wanted to start a thread on listing all the IR title songs, but I was'nt sure if a similar thread already existed in the archives. ( I still have not completed reading the archives :)
- From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50)
on: Sat Apr 6 11:19:56 EST 2002
vgs : IR expresses the same in the song "Paattale Buththi Sonnaar".
Naaz: I'm not making the issue simplistic. Kanda kanda singers paattai kolai pannadhellam kettaachchu, namma MDs paadinaa enna -nnu kaetten. oru smiley add pannirukkanum :)
7. They know Music, so they should know how to Sing.
But, how did they let some of their horrible performances pass? Why didn't they catch their umpteen abaswarams, off-keys & general paattu kolais?
A study in contrast would be Western songs, where the composers sing most of the time (excluding nsync, b.spears, madonna..). They sound horrible, but the fans lap it all up.
- From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50)
on: Sat Apr 6 11:20:31 EST 2002
8. All successful MDs are failed singers, and this is their way to exact revenge for all the rejection.
:-)
- From: hari (@ 66.68.96.108)
on: Sat Apr 6 11:33:03 EST 2002
c&p from another thread
Music is subjective. IR, ARR singing has fan following. Fans like it. It might be prejudice, but it doesnt matter. For the fan, music is for personal entertainment,... for the composer, it is a market, his/her source of livelihood. A prejudiced fan is as important to a composer as a neutral fan. Both pay the same for a cassette/CD.
Thousands of (prejudiced?) people like IR's voice in most of his songs (general statement... cant back up with facts) So IR sings to please his fans. Ditto with ARR, and others.
- From: magix (@ 203.199.248.114)
on: Sat Apr 6 11:35:03 EST 2002
innikku "Ae nee romba azhaga irukkae" function layum 4 outta 5 MDs sang their own songs. Srinivasa kekanamma??!!
- From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63)
on: Sat Apr 6 11:43:24 EST 2002
s0 - thanks for the smiley (BTW I DO respect your views :-)) It is just that I would like to get a bit beyond the obvious...
Your point regarding the "paattu kolais" is right on. Why do the MDs let it pass...now, that's for another thread :-) to take up!
Your second point of comparison is somewhat problematic...MDs who score western film soundtracks would be a more appropriate corollary, don't you think? (I keep as far away as I can from the bracketed singers you mention BTW). Also, for those who want to shut out the crap - there is always Jazz, R&B, New Age, WCM and other "quality" stuff to tune into. Alas, one can't say the same about options for Tamizh listeners.
vgs - The aspect of "superstition" is a valid one (in the Indian context.) But more often than not, this has revealed itself to be a "cosmic" crutch, and nothing more. No amount of additonals A's in his name made Bharatirajaaa a household name that side of Karnataka. Ditto for K. Viswanaath (and for all that, these directors worked with top producers/banners/collaborators). Regarding IRs "title" songs and its magic effect on box-office grosses - there are just as many failures as there are successes (Idhaya Kovil and Metti come immediately to mind - for title songs - and both were hyped films which were nixed at the theatres.) I guess, this "superstition" business is considered good only when the film goes through the roof in collections? (As they say "Success has many fathers. Failure is a Bas***d ?) And interestingly enough, working the same IR example to the max., wouldn't you say that the films where he has NOT sung the "title" track have fared a lot better in terms of profits -- Nayagan, Poovilangu, Agni Natchchatiram, Kadalora Kavidhaigal, Alaigal Oyvathillai...?
Where does this leave the constellations and their "star" power?
- From: vgs (@ 157.161.133.194)
on: Sat Apr 6 11:57:02 EST 2002
Naaz, I read my posting again and may be I did'nt put my point across properly. I meant that there were enough no. of title songs to safely conclude that such a sentiment existed. I did'nt want to imply that this sentiment as such was 100% correct. Sorry for the confusion.
- From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63)
on: Sat Apr 6 13:16:19 EST 2002
VGS - There was no confusion. You express yourself clearly and without ambiguity. And I hope you can also share your thoughts on the other "hypotheticals." I look forward to your contribution.
(A list of Title/Track Hits of IR would also be helpful. Even other MDs songs and effect - would be good. Let's not make this a one MD program!)
- From: sarat (@ 128.192.5.156)
on: Sat Apr 6 14:28:35 EST 2002
naaz
I think that the first song that a MD sings is when they feel that no other singer is able to present what they have in mind for the song. So why not try themselves...
After that I think it is either ego that they can carry off any song, or it is the producer/director trying to cash in on the novelty of the idea.
- From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50)
on: Sat Apr 6 15:14:21 EST 2002
actually, the choice of singers is really puzzling. a lot has been debated in this forum about the selection/rejection of singers for songs, esp Mano instead of SPB. I think this thread is a subset of the overall question of which singer to sing which song with additional factors like self-worth, ego? etc.. thrown in.
2. They know their compositions like nobody else.
this may one of the valid reasons for IR singing. he also does not encourage improvisations by the singers and wants them to stick to what he wrote.
3. There is a famine of good, trained singers.
I don't believe this is true. I am inclined to reject this outright.
4. It is cost-effective.
really? how does the system work? is the MD paid a sum and does he pay the singers? do the producers put pressure in that case?
- From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63)
on: Sat Apr 6 16:02:32 EST 2002
s0: Point # 2: The knowledge of compositions and its realisation - if that is the MDs prerogative - then why not sing all the songs? I can easily imagine a KJY in "Kandadhai Sollugiraen" or MVD in a "Sambo Siva Sambo." - and I believe, they can "stick" to the instructions without too much ado.
About the cost-effective hypothesis - I just threw that in - as how else does one justify a good tune gone bad, just because a MD insisted on singing it himself? (2-4-1 is an easy rationale, yes?)
There is no famine of good, trained singers. There is an abundance of mediocre, bad and untrained singers in the current lot. Agree?
Now let's talk Ego. :-)
- From: sarat (@ 67.33.159.112)
on: Sat Apr 6 16:49:39 EST 2002
the 3 letter bad word!
- From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63)
on: Sat Apr 6 17:02:45 EST 2002
Hari - thanks for posting. I'd like to just make this small note of distinction to your statement above:
Music is not Subjective. Listening preference is.
Sarat: You introduced that 3-letter word in your post. Now you've got to run with it...What made you use it in the first place? That might be a good place to begin.
- From: sarat (@ 67.33.159.112)
on: Sat Apr 6 17:51:12 EST 2002
I think its very difficult for anybody to admit their limitations.
So when a producer/director comes to the MD and asks him to a sing a song in the movie, he cant tell them " I cant do full justice to this song".
Even though, I am sure, he knows it.
- From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50)
on: Sat Apr 6 18:10:35 EST 2002
<<>>
their voice might not suit the persona of the actor. I shudder to think about MSV singing for Gemini, IR for Kamal. I would like to add another hypothesis:
9. the MD feels that he is best suited for the actor/the situation that the song is picturised on.
I agree with your statement that there is a dearth in the quality of singers at present. Gradually, for good or for bad, TFM has evolved to a singer dominated music to an instrument/effects dominated music. the seemingly simple melodies that were delighfully executed by PS & co. has been totally transformed to an ensemble of musicians/computers playing an increasingly polyphonic music. Singers have been pushed to the background, so to speak. but, i'm digressing.
Western singers are highly popular in spite of their poor singing voices/abilities. I'm not talking about the bracketed "singers" here. For eg, bob dylan (firstly, NOM to his fans) has a not-so-great voice. still, his fans love it all the same. that's where my analogy stands. the other bgm scorers do not sing, do they? that brings me to another point. in western music, singing is a speciality by itself. You cannot sing a symphony. however, Indian music is learnt by singing for a large part. it has the swaram-saahityam or the konnakko structure that every vocalist/instrumentalist/percussionist has to vocalise. hence, every kaaraikudi iyer or a palghat iyer or a Saidapet sisters can fancy their singing whether they are actually talented or not.
talk of ego, and you are going to create a ruckus here. don't say that I didn't warn you.
- From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Sat Apr 6 18:11:40 EST 2002
oops, my browser failed me. the first sentence is a quote from Naaz's post:
"then why not sing all the songs?"
- From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Sat Apr 6 18:11:40 EST 2002
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