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Patti Mandram III, "Is Vairamuthu a chauvenist? Yes or No, show evidence from TFM".

Topic started by Udhaya (@ host16.globalcenter.net) on Sat Jun 20 14:02:54 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

This topic is derived from the exciting debate that began in the "Why no female MDs?" thread. Mano and I say yes to the Patti Mandram question while Ramki came out with a No response and gave more examples to back up his claim. The key is to show evidence from TFM as facts for your contention.

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Responses:

• From: Udhaya (@ host16.globalcenter.net) on: Sat Jun 20 14:20:23 EDT 1998
  
  Okay folks, this is how we got started. Here is the back story:
  From: Mano (@ eislib2.uwaterloo.ca) on: Thu Jun 18 14:17:22 EDT 1998
  
  
  In an Interview with VM regarding women poets in Cinema:
  Q: Why are there not many women poets writing
  lyrics for cinema?
  Yes. There are not many. It is mainly due to
  the dearth of women lyricists in Tamil in
  general. After Sangam literature, the list is
  not long. Our emotions are generally
  suppressed nowadays. Emotions are not let
  out. (In a movie song, emotions are let out.
  Women may be a little shy of freely
  expressing the feelings in a movie lyric.)
  
  Do you believe that the emotions are let out in movie songs??? I don't think so. Why couldn't VM give a logical answer? Perhaps, he is part of the male dominated lyrics writers and he do not want to accept it.
  
  Anyhow above interview can be found in:
  http://www.indolink.com/tamil/cinema/Specials/98/June/vaira/vairamuthu.htm
  
  Cheers
  Mano
  
  
  
  From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Thu Jun 18 17:29:39 EDT 1998
  
  
  Mano, you are dead on about VM. He is a bonafide chauvenist. If not he would have let his own wife (Thangamani, who's a pretty good poet in her own right)into the cine field. And if you notice his feelings about women in the songs he has written it becomes abundantly clear that he deems them in very restrictive terms.
  Here's an excerpt from "Samsaaram Athu Minsaaram"
  "Thannadakkam Venumamma
  Penmaikkathu Nallathamma"
  And in countless songs he has written the sentiments (as sung by the female lead of course)that pretty much profess that she(the female character) was born to be savored by him (the male character). I know this thread is not about VM, but he does stand for the boys club that is the TF industry.
  From: Ramki (@ dante.cs.wmich.edu) on: Fri Jun 19 15:31:26 EDT 1998
  
  
  Udhaya i disagree on your views on vairamuthus
  cahuvinism. He has written quite a few songs on
  penn perumai and freedom . Examples
  
  pennae kalangaadhae idhu aan desamae
  penmai arasaalum oru kaalam varumae(from the song thaiye thaiye)
  
  pennai punnai kaanum kaalam illai
  podhum podhum thanimai(alai meedhu thadumaarudhe)
  
  Thadumaarum sila nyangal
  idhanaal dhan pala kaayangal
  kanneril thallaadum pen deepangal(from the same song)
  
  
  oomaikkum naakugal vendumamma
  urimaikku poridavendumamma
  
  etc...
  
  
  
  From: Mano (@ gaff151.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) on: Fri Jun 19 20:21:55 EDT 1998
  
  
  Ramki:
  Udhaya is right. How many of them can you list? You wouldn't find many.
  
  I could list more:
  Pennai Padaikathey Pirambaney... Nenjil Aadum Poo Onru
  I could list many more, but the list is too big to write it.
  
  Cheers
  Mano
  
  
  
  From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Fri Jun 19 21:48:41 EDT 1998
  
  
  Ramki and Mano, this looks like a healthy Patti Mandram topic. Maybe we can start Patti Mandram III, "Is Vairamuthu a chauvenist? Yes or No, show evidence from TFM". This way the original intent of this thread will continue undeterred by us. Should we? Opinions please.
  
  
  
  From: Mano (@ tesla.uwaterloo.ca) on: Sat Jun 20 00:44:44 EDT 1998
  
  
  Udhaya:
  Why not?
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.219) on: Sat Jun 20 16:17:12 EDT 1998
  
  vairamuthu is not worth a separate thread!
  
  
• From: Ramki (@ wlib088.wmlib.wmich.edu) on: Sat Jun 20 17:58:04 EDT 1998
  
  Vijay,when love letters,birthday wishes and saranagadhis can why not poor vairamuthu??
  
  Udhaya u will have to wait till monday for my participation in the patti mandram..i have exams:((
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ host16.globalcenter.net) on: Sat Jun 20 20:46:35 EDT 1998
  
  Good luck Ramki, stop showing up here, dude, focus on your exams! Oh, I second your sentiments about VM deserving a thread. I need some time to cull up some examples to debate this.
  
  
• From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ synergy.nus.edu.sg) on: Mon Jun 22 04:32:00 EDT 1998
  
  Vaali has written a number of poems describing Women's problems
  in society. Here I am giving one of them about 'getting girls
  married'. Has VM written any such poems? The poem was sent by
  a friend and is in Murasu Anjal format. If transliteration is
  needed, please tell me.
  
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  There is one more poem by Vaali which talks about a working
  woman 'much more powerfully'. If people are interested I will
  post it here.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Mon Jun 22 15:00:38 EDT 1998
  
  Sathya avargalae, I wouldn't want to miss anything you bring up as I always relish the stuff your memory comes up with so please feel free to include it as you please. But I also don't want to divert the thread from the brewing debate: Is VM a chauvenist, Yes or No, show examples from TFM.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Mon Jun 22 15:34:23 EDT 1998
  
  My memory is not up to speed on this topic, so I will begin my stance by explaining chauvenism as I see it,with a few examples.
  I believe that VM is a chauvenist in the traditional sense of the Indian male's view of a woman. Chauvenism doesn't necessarily have to be overt and outright condemnation of a woman's capabilities or worth. There is a subtler, more devious root to chauvenism that is present in almost all cultures but especially the Indian culture. This subtler form of chauvenism deems women as acquisitions, jewels in the man's crown, as feasts for a man's desire, etc. I believe it is chauvenistic to identify a woman's existance by her relation to her man.
  
  Some examples:
  Avaraikku poo azhagu
  avarukku naan azhagu
  
  Why should she be his beauty? Why should her exaltation come from the fact that she adorns him, and not from who she is as a person?
  
  Maanganigal thottililae thoonguthadi angae
  Mannavanin pasiyaara maalayilae parimaara
  Vaazhaiyilai neer thelitthu poadadi yen kannae
  
  In the above song VM is equating the woman to a feast waiting to be savored by the man. This is patronizing and belittling women to say the least.
  
  Potthi vacha malligai mottu
  poothurichu vetkatha vittu
  pesi pesi raasiyaanadhae
  maman peracholli cholli aalaanadhae
  
  In the above song, the girl reaches puberty with the sheer intent of being betrothed. She comes of age with her future husband in mind. I understand that this song is very fitting for the movie character, but to celebrate her puberty and its purpose in lieu of her future husband is very limiting and chauvenistic.
  
  naan dhaavanikku vandha naerum onna anuppivachaan
  Here, the woman sings this as if to proclaim that the whole reason she came of age was for his satisfaction, that God sent him to savor her just in time when she becomes ripe.
  
  There are many other songs which I wish I can remember properly with lines that basically say:
  "what's a woman's purpose without a man"
  "I came of age just for you"
  
  I also believe that VM isn't the only one with these sentiments. Majority of the TFM poets abide by these chauvenistic sentiments and agrandize sexist role-playing. This is a very good reason to have female poets in TFM. TFM has been long overdue for revisionism in lyrics.
  
  
• From: Mano (@ eislib2.uwaterloo.ca) on: Mon Jun 22 15:45:57 EDT 1998
  
  Udhaya:
  There is a mistake, 'Rathiriyil Poothirkum..' by Pulaimai Pithan, not by VM. So, you cannot referred to that song.
  
  By the way, I am very busy with the exams. I'll join it after the wednesday.
  
  Cheers!
  Mano
  
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Mon Jun 22 15:54:51 EDT 1998
  
  Are you sure that's not VM, Mano? If so I'm terribly sorry. This is why I'm hesitant about quoting other songs that I'm not sure about. Anyway, I believe my point is made with the other examples. Good luck with the exams, please take your time to post.
  
  
• From: Ramki (@ dante.cs.wmich.edu) on: Mon Jun 22 16:06:06 EDT 1998
  
  Good start Udhaya:)
  
  first let us discuss abt ur 'samsaaram adhu minsaaram' song.
  
  neengal kurupitta varigal
  
  'thannadakkam venumamma
  pengalukkadhu nalladhamma'
  
  indha varigalukku appuram varum varigal...
  
  'kaamathukkum mogathukkum neram kaalam ulladhamma'
  
  indha lines kadhaiyin contextkkaaga ezhudhapattadhu. oru periya joint familiyil irukkum pudhidhai thirumanamaana coupleskku
  thaniyamaiyana neram kidaikkardhu kashtam. Padathil varum indha character adhaiyae perusaaga
  kaaranam katti than parents veetukku poga ninaikkiraal. kadhaiyin kaatchi amaipukku erpa dhan indha paadal vandhulladhu.
  veetin nilamaiyai purindhu kollum nalla adakkam vendum engiraar. Idhilenne thappu???
  
  Aanal oru pennukku aneedhi aerpattaal avar thanadakkamaaga irukka sollavillai
  
  'oh oru thendral puyalaagi varumae'
  
  puyalaagu maaru engiraar. Idhen paadalil innum varum vaira varigal
  
  'adukkalai thudaippadhum padukkaiyai virippadhum
  adhu pennin kadhai illaiye'
  
  Btw 'rathiriyil poothirukkum'paadalai ezhidinadhu
  VM ille. it was written by PUlamaipithan:))
  
  Ungalin adutha kutrachaatu
  
  
  "what's a woman's purpose without a man"
  
  Same VM wrote the following lines:
  
  'vivagathaiye vivagarathu seidha pengalin kootamidhu'
  
  Wow Bharathi kooda solladha arumaiyaana varigal.
  
  Engalukku vivagamae thevaiyillai endru independataagaa vazhum dhariyasali penmanigal.
  
  'nam ellorkkum ore kanavan
  adhu isaiya irukkattum'
  
  Kalyanam enbadhu oru pennukku oru aan maganodu dhan irukkavendiyadhillai enbadhai koorugiraar
  
  
  In many of his songs he has written on the respect a man has for his woman...examples
  
  'thaiyidam kooda kandadhillai andha paasam'
  
  Than manaiviyin paasam oru annai kaattum paasathodu uyarvaanadhu.Adhe paadalin(anbulla appa)kadaisiyil varum varigal
  
  en vaanil vidivelli ezhundhadhu
  vennilavu maraindhadhu
  
  vidivelli vennilavu rendume rendu pengalai kurupidugriaar.indha rendum illaiyendraal vaanam
  irundu poividum. Oru manidhanil vazhvil oru pen illaiyendraal avan vazhkkai dhisai theriyaamal poividum,irundu vidum. So oru penn oru aanain vazhakkai thunai mattumillai but avanadhu vazhikattiyum engiraar..
  
  
  More later
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Ramki (@ dante.cs.wmich.edu) on: Mon Jun 22 16:07:13 EDT 1998
  
  Sorry i didnt see manos posting on 'rathriyil '
  
  
  

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