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Can instrumental version of the Songs be considered the BGM score for a movie

Topic started by UV (@ 134.113.203.137) on Tue Nov 21 13:13:50 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Friends
I have watched few movies like Alaipayuthe ,Mudhalvan and latest Tenali ,the BGM score was interesting in the sense MD plays the instrument version of the songs as BGM.
Every MD has his/her own style i think this will be the latest trend for BGMS.
This means either the MDs are too busy or too lazy to come up with some interesting BGM or it is their trademark style your thoughts on this.
Did the concept of BGM was there in 60s i mean they used to have a band play the bgm or a same set of bgms for eg for pathos one type and for horro or thrill one type and these same get repeated in different movies.
My work is done here i will leave it to the experts

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Responses:

• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 21 13:23:18 EST 2000
  
  I think this is called "Leitmotif", a term that is used to mean an association of a person/place to a particular tune. The tune (for example a theme from a song itself) is repeated whenever the person/place shows up on screen. There are many examples - in the movie "Love Story", the song "Where do I begin..." and its instrumental version is repeated throughout the movie....
  and in "Mouna Raagam", the same tune (although not a song) is repeated whenever there was an karthik shows up...and so on.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 21 13:24:02 EST 2000
  
  Leitmotiv is the correct spelling i believe
  
  
• From: UV (@ 134.113.203.137) on: Tue Nov 21 14:11:53 EST 2000
  
  Thanks for the info Swamiji!! nice name :)
  Well i used to refer it as a loop. When used appropriately it is ok but the depth of bgm sounds very hallow and repetitive after sometime..
  
  
• From: kk (@ 198.4.92.5) on: Tue Nov 21 14:31:38 EST 2000
  
  swamiji both spellings are correct!
  
  
• From: doubter (@ 208.142.210.30) on: Tue Nov 21 14:56:31 EST 2000
  
  OK guys... Preliminary postings are over... The stage is set.... Let the real MATTER start :-))))))))
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 21 15:02:31 EST 2000
  
  I am sorry, but I am not sure if Leitmotiv is actually used in alaypayude...but i just wanted to bring forth this term in music.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Tue Nov 21 15:11:23 EST 2000
  
  doubter,
  
  I will give the spark
  
  Usually how it strats is somebody innocently says something like this MD(usually ARR) has done a piece like this.And then someone else says this MD(usually IR) has done a much better job in that respect and then the degeneration of the thread starts.
  
  Here goes the spark,
  
  "The way ARR used the theme music is "Jeans" was commendable.He used it very effectively in love scenes during separation and also when they long for each other."
  
  Now,who is ready to start the fire?-)
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 21 15:23:29 EST 2000
  
  Vendame please...
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Tue Nov 21 15:31:26 EST 2000
  
  Swamiji,
  
  You are right.We don't need it.But if we are aware this is how usually a thread degenerates we have better chance of preventing it.
  
  
• From: UV (@ 134.113.203.137) on: Tue Nov 21 15:44:50 EST 2000
  
  Trend and Swami
  The purpose of me starting is not spit the hate venom at each other but lets looks constructively over this.
  Well why dont if you are aware please let us know how is concept of BGM started in movies
  lets start with Bhagavathar kalam to the present movie lets see how it gained importance.
  To my knowledge more prominence and new innovations where done during IR period from his very first movie Annakili to Moondram Pirai
  what do you say
  please we are not praising or degrading any MD but just discussing the trend and changes!! ;)
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Tue Nov 21 16:01:44 EST 2000
  
  UV,
  
  "To my knowledge more prominence and new innovations where done during IR period from his very first movie Annakili to Moondram Pirai"
  
  This is how it starts.You could have surely avoided "more prominence and new innovations".Please restrain yourself to maybe pointing out IR's work in terms of his contribution.I think ARR's contribution is much more.
  
  So,let's not get into this.You say in which movies IR or ARR has contributed and I will do the same.Let's not compare b'cos we know what happens next.
  
  
  
• From: doubter (@ 208.142.210.30) on: Tue Nov 21 16:15:49 EST 2000
  
  My observations:
  
  In very old movies, like 'antha naaL', 'kalyaaNam paNNiyum brammachaar', there is no unwanted BGM. For ex. there will be no BGM when someone is talking. This is analogous to Balu Mahendra's movies also.
  
  Later, during MSV's peak there was a lot of music, though not very creative.
  
  I need not say anything about IR because that is something which enjoys large scale consensus in this DF.
  
  Since we are discussing the trend and changes, I am forced to mention the changes brought about by ARR. He seems be content with playing the faster or slower version of the movie's songs for BGM. Probably the producer/director is too impatient to wait for a serious BGM from ARR, given the speed at which he works.
  
  But I am not able understand the howling of people as part of BGM. A typical example is the last 30 minutes of 'uyirae'. Can anybody explain the logic behind that?
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Tue Nov 21 16:57:15 EST 2000
  
  I don't see anything wrong with a faster/slower version of songs for BGM as long as it suits the particular scene.When I go for a movie,I'm happy if it conveys the message.I don't try to cross-match it with any BGMs.
  
  Commercially,it helps the movie too.The songs are released much before the movie.So,lot of Movie fans come to see how their favourite songs shows up on screen.Since they are already involved with the songs it is easier to get them involved with the movie with the songs being played faster/slower.
  
  Abt Uyire,it evoked in me a sad feeling that something dreadful is going to happen.I didn't even realize it as howling.I thought it blended well with the movie.
  
  
• From: qwerty (@ 213.123.47.107) on: Tue Nov 21 17:24:18 EST 2000
  
  trend,
  sappakkattunna ithuthan,
  besh besh,romba nanna irukku!!!!!!
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Nov 21 17:27:04 EST 2000
  
  Trend,
  I know your favorite MD is ARR. But does that mean you should not enjoy IR's songs/BGM ? Does that mean you want to deny the efficacy of the BGM for the success of the movie ?
  Just listen to siraichAlai (kalapAni) BGM. It is amazing.
  
  
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.144.64.4) on: Tue Nov 21 22:41:35 EST 2000
  
  To me replaying the songs as BGM is absolute lack of creativity on the MD's part...in the sense, their brains fall short of coming up quickly with more and more melodies / arrangements and scores. Hence they resort to replaying the songs (which have often been borrowed already)...Look, I'm not talking about anyone in particular...at times, the top ranked MDs even leave this aspect (BGM) to some unknown / 2nd grade groups, what do you call that?
  
  
• From: Venkatesh (@ 206.49.110.156) on: Wed Nov 22 00:30:59 EST 2000
  
  Lot of times, IR is used to give a hint of the song 2-3 minutes before the song situation, by playing one of the themes / key from the interludes/song. The coloration will be mild and cannot be called as playing the instrumental version of the song.
  
  I used to enjoy this very much, by minutely watching the proceedings.
  
  
• From: Venkatesh (@ 206.49.110.156) on: Wed Nov 22 00:36:02 EST 2000
  
  Contd...
  IR does this to build up the right moods before the song starts thru such techniques. This makes the song gel with the movie and not looks inserted for the sake of it.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.144.64.4) on: Wed Nov 22 03:23:07 EST 2000
  
  Please read `replaying the songs' as `replaying with instrumental version of the songs' in my post above:-) I'm not against the film's director choosing to insert the actual song's clips here and there to run the storyline more musical:-))
  
  Sorry about the miss:-(
  
  
• From: KITKAT (@ 203.106.108.44) on: Wed Nov 22 03:56:39 EST 2000
  
  So we are back to "Who's BGM is Better" IR or ARR.
  Vaazga neeveer ivaiyathuL vaazvaangu - > IR Fans/ARR Bashers.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Wed Nov 22 09:34:28 EST 2000
  
  Kiru,
  
  I like a lot of IR's songs and BGMs.But the nature of the posting(biased) by some people here enables me also to post in the same way for the effect of counteraction.
  
  IR has done brilliant work in a lot of movies.When he is being praised,some people derive a lot of satisfaction in bashing ARR.I don't like this attitude.
  
  That's why it is probably necessary to take one movie consider the BGM done for that movie and move on to the next and so on.
  
  As Kitkat pointed out,let this thread not go the same way.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Wed Nov 22 09:37:31 EST 2000
  
  Also,there are scenes when ARR's songs(slower/faster) are not used as BGM.Nobody here wants to talk about that?!!!
  
  
• From: doubter (@ 208.142.210.30) on: Wed Nov 22 10:15:36 EST 2000
  
  Trend
  
  I never gave any opinion of mine, when pointing out that ARR plays his songs as BGM. I never said whether it is correct or wrong. It was just my observation. Same with the howling. I did not say howling is cacophony or whatever. That again was an observation. Different people might look at the BGM in different angles.
  
  Moreover, I was only pointing out the CHANGES introduced by ARR to the concept of BGM. I was not analysing his BGM. So I did not mention about his 'regular' BGMs.
  
  In fact, the usage of naadhaswaram (to signify a wedding) when Tabu yields to Ajit in the climax of KKKK, was very impressive. But there was nothing NEW in that approach.
  
  
• From: doubter (@ 208.142.210.30) on: Wed Nov 22 10:20:48 EST 2000
  
  Happened to see the first half of 'paarthaen rasithaen'. Most of the BGM is copied from Tamil movies. The title music (also the 'theme' music)is a blatant copy of 'musthafa musthafa'. Especially the drums and humming. Theme music of Guna has been copied in various places. 'salaam gulaamu' (from Hello) is copied in a few places.
  
  Probably Bharadwaj is introducing a new trend. Copy older songs and play them as BGM :-)))))
  
  
• From: UV (@ 134.113.203.137) on: Wed Nov 22 13:45:36 EST 2000
  
  Friends
  
  Eventhough every MD has his or her own ideas and decides how the BGM should be provided the film director also likes it that way.
  But plese understand BGM plays a important role in setting up the mood and bring out emotions
  and it is really a challenge to every MD to bring out his best.
  Mere repeating of a loop alone doesnt count.
  True it may sound appropriate on few occasions like a lover meeting that time the duet song can be played in the BGM but you cannot do that same thing like playing every song in the movie as the BGM eg i feel is mudhalvan. There are great scores you can get in hollywood movies made those tune immortals like Jerry Goldsmith,James Horner,John Williams.
  People like the great John Williams of the StarWars,Jaws become famous for the extraordinary scores.
  Take for example in the movie Jaws just playing a two notes he bought entire audience heartbeat pumping see now thats what is BGM is all about
  Without being partisan i will defintively say IR has bought or set some new standards in BGM for sure whether you like it or not.
  I thinks its important to be a good music lover instead of being a fanatic fan of some MD.
  I am also open for further discussions and debate provided people refrain from bashing this IR Vs ARR stuff please stick to the topic
  So my final conclusion eventhough they are nice and fit few scenes one cannot just simply getway by playing or repeating the songs version again and again.
  For example ARR didnt score or nothing at all in Thenali this may be due to he being too busy or the movie is so hilarious nobody gives a damn about BGM which i think is also right.
  But if you take a intense movie like Nayagan or Kalapani or Bombay u just cant justify by merely playing the songs as BGM.
  The MD must make sure he delivers something
  BTW ARR BGM score for bombay was good.
  
  thanks
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Wed Nov 22 15:50:51 EST 2000
  
  IMO, BGM writing for movies is a separate study itself. It is quite different from writing a song in that, while a song lasts for mere 5 mins, a movie goes on for hours.
  A good MD uses a particular flavor (means a particular technique) throughout the movie to familiarize the movie with the tune. Now, this is totally upto the MD - and he has the freedom to choose the technique. But sometimes that technique is reused so we say that a horror movie has a score like this...and so forth. Star wars had an BGM arrangement with an "Augmented" scale - and that was also used by IR in "Star Wars" song. All the interludes in that song would have been perfect for a BGM. Again, the point was to familiarize that song with Star Wars.
  IR obviously was superb in writing scores for movies because i think he has learnt it. And he also knows that writing BGM is different from writing an "Extended" song and thats why they stand out from the rest.
  
  

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