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Is music mathematical !!!!!!

Topic started by Kumar (@ ext-3054.rational.com) on Wed Jul 11 20:51:05 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Now I dont know if I am making any sense in this question... but just thought about this while reading about the 'got milk' thread.. where the discussion is about music going into a cycle..

Music is harmonics. I read somewhere music and
math are the only two universal things. R there
theories behind music.. do they follow rules
which r universal.. can they be mapped to math..

Continuing with my babble.. can they be extra
polated and can we predict the future of music..
can we put the changes in music to a statistical
trend.. ??? on.. and on..

:-)

(ps: if u want to blame me for talking something
which even i dont understand, its all because
of my influence of seeing AI.. makes one think
'out of the box' :-))))) )

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Responses:

• From: spielberg (@ inet-netcache1-o.oracle.com) on: Wed Jul 11 21:45:38 EDT 2001
  
  AI sucked big time dude. If ur thinking is a result of that, then it gotta be warped.
  
  
• From: normal man again (@ pppa35-resalerockford1-3r7238.dialinx.net) on: Thu Jul 12 02:37:07 EDT 2001
  
  Kumar, just a side of the page underlined in red color note. what did you like about AI? i haven't seen more idiotic and childish film than this one... (i agree the score saved some moments, but it seemed like eternity to satisfy the curiosity of what the sotry was about... waiting 2000 years for a blue fairy...)
  
  on another note, you may be right... imagine ai's with perfect mathematical thinking abilities, you think they would also have an interest in creating music that involves feelings?
  
  
• From: bharath (@ ac8a677d.ipt.aol.com) on: Thu Jul 12 08:57:59 EDT 2001
  
  I am reading a book called "the science of musical sound" by john.r.pierce.
  
  His book is mainly about the math involved in the music and how digital music is more mathematical than the analog version. I quote him
  
  //" In greek and roman worlds music , including whatever was known about musical acoustics, held a high place in science and philosophy. In the liberal arts of the middle ages, music was part of the higher "quadrivium", along with arithmatic geometry and astronomy.The place of music in liberal arts was above that of grammer rhetoric and logic, which was in the lower trivium that dealt with words rather than numbers."//
  
  ihave read books where beethovan considered music as purely mathematical!
  
  b.t.w I agree AI was a let down, but i should say people now have a propensity to critisize easily just because it is speilberg. critisizing a popular man seems to be the fad these days.
  
  I agree its not like savin priv ryan but some of the adjectives used r quite harsh and untrue.
  
  if u separate tghe movie into 3 segments I loved the 1st and the third. the segment 2000 years into the future was chiling and very enchanting!
  
  u may have really been out of the box not to like it:-)
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Thu Jul 12 12:28:55 EDT 2001
  
  digital music is more mathematical than the analog version the man doesn't know mathematics.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ oneway.convex.com) on: Thu Jul 12 13:17:52 EDT 2001
  
  yeah and u know everything!
  
  
• From: MS (@ cache145.sc.edu) on: Thu Jul 12 13:40:40 EDT 2001
  
  There is a book named "Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid (1979)" by douglas hofstadter which discusses how the three geniuses are mathematically related. This is a pulitzer winning book and is one of the most original among the few I have read.
  
  Godel = Mathematician who wasinterested in the consistency of arithmetic
  
  Bach = musician
  
  Escher = Painter who gave very thought provoking paintings.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.115) on: Thu Jul 12 16:43:23 EDT 2001
  
  People have worked for years to generate music by an algorithm that mixes predictability with randomness. Search the web for 'Algorithmic composition" and there are quite a few software programs that create decent melodies. Programs based on fractal math are intriguing.
  
  There is a program called Tangent (I checked it last November) I think Randomtunes.com. Generates interesting counterpoint music. You can take its raw output and sculpt it.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.115) on: Thu Jul 12 16:45:49 EDT 2001
  
  Pierce book has a chapter on how music has to balance the familiar (by repetition) and the unfamiliar (novelty) in information theory terms. That is an excellent book starting with the physics of music and going to the psychology of music.
  
  Godel escher and its sequel Metamagical themas have good discussions.
  
  Another good book, this one is recent, that discusses a wide range about such issues is Mind Music and Ecstasy.
  
  
• From: Kumar (@ ext-3054.rational.com) on: Fri Jul 13 00:22:02 EDT 2001
  
  thanx guys.. it sure is interesting to note
  there has been lots of theories already floating
  out there and the math mapping of music.. does
  anybody know if the they teach math in music
  schools ?
  What exactly is thought their.. music and its
  structure I am sure.. what else goes on.. anybody
  here from music schools ?
  
  And about AI guys... I guess different people like
  it differently.. my respect for speilberg did not
  go down after this movie for sure.. it only
  increased.. ofcourse some portions of the movie
  might sound silly but then its a science fiction..
  the prime part of the storyline was the discussion
  about artificially producing love and its
  acceptance.. which I think hit home...
  
  :-)
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.1.130) on: Fri Jul 13 04:50:21 EDT 2001
  
  Kumar..
  
  But I sure hope that they start teaching music in MAth classes also....I am sure that it will churn out many good mathematicians and people with strong analytical skills !
  
  
• From: mahabs (@ 203.197.138.163) on: Fri Jul 13 09:00:24 EDT 2001
  
  surely, music can be explained mathematiclly, but its evolution (future predictability) is not at all possible, imo. 'cause, the process of thought or mind cannot be included in a scientific framework.
  
  sir cv raman has analysed about the physics of our traditional instruments. and i heard that he recreated the famous yaazh.
  
  music is somewhat similar to chaos theory. you can anlyse the possibilities. but prediction is not possible.
  
  anbudan
  
  mahabs
  
  
• From: Veronica Blaire (@ ) on: Sat Feb 23 14:03:59 EST 2002
  
  Music is very mathematical. I am a Mathematics major with a very high interest in music. I have taken a music theory class and am involved in music daily. I agree that music is no predictable in that we never know what will come next. But the theories that go into writing music are a very mathematical process. Music is all about numbers and rhythms, (which are numbers), and things like that.
  
  As for the response about music with feelings: Music is feelings!!! If you were to listen to a well written piece of music, the music behind the words tells the story, not the words themselves. If you had a love poem set to some warlike music, it would not be as effective as if it were set to music that were freeflowing and romantic in style.
  
  So yes, music is mathematical, but true music also has feelings. Real music can envoke emotions from your soul and at the same time have a very mathematical patern to it.
  
  
• From: Veronica Blaire (@ ) on: Sat Feb 23 14:04:14 EST 2002
  
  Music is very mathematical. I am a Mathematics major with a very high interest in music. I have taken a music theory class and am involved in music daily. I agree that music is no predictable in that we never know what will come next. But the theories that go into writing music are a very mathematical process. Music is all about numbers and rhythms, (which are numbers), and things like that.
  
  As for the response about music with feelings: Music is feelings!!! If you were to listen to a well written piece of music, the music behind the words tells the story, not the words themselves. If you had a love poem set to some warlike music, it would not be as effective as if it were set to music that were freeflowing and romantic in style.
  
  So yes, music is mathematical, but true music also has feelings. Real music can envoke emotions from your soul and at the same time have a very mathematical patern to it.
  
  
• From: basho&issa (@ 12.37.5.68) on: Mon Feb 25 15:14:07 EST 2002
  
  dudes,
  i recently saw a thesis titled " Jazz improvization using dynamic programming", done at viginia tech.
  well serious of notes is related to serious of events and goes on..
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Mon Feb 25 16:41:33 EST 2002
  
  is not midi format of music mathematical ? If some expert can offer some explanation, it will be good.
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Mon Feb 25 19:16:45 EST 2002
  
  MS: inna kELvi idhu? :-)) irrespective of the format - be it analog, midi, blah blah - music is mathematical. at a cognitive level, imho, it boils down to pattern identification (and sometimes recognition). music appreciation is an altogether different topic (the whole df is devoted to that - or rather to a lack of it :-) ).
  
  basho and issa: can you please provide the gist of what was in that thesis. i used to think all forms of improvisations are basically dynamic programming techniques; i would like to know what speciality the thesis attributed to jazz.
  
  
• From: bhoomii (@ 172.172.94.147) on: Mon Feb 25 22:14:40 EST 2002
  
  Any Music is Mathematical approach. WE can see in ancient days, the carnatic swaras and how the 22 sruthis are derivated in that one. Each one is having their degrees too. according to it the raga also derives from major raga. Buta deep study of music is required for it. You can go through the carnatic pages in web, and also have a look at it. Whether its instrumental, vocal, western or Indian, or European it have its own derivations.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.160) on: Mon Feb 25 23:58:18 EST 2002
  
  aruL: I guess I did not word it properly. yes - all music is wave and waves are math :-) As somebody said, if we were to interpret Bach' fugues and cannons as a superposition of various waves, we would lose "music". But what I was asking is the way midi files are being handled. What I wanted to know was if midi files are the best files for doing math operations like "replacing an instrument" etc..I am starting to learn the basics of midi and just curious to know the basics.
  
  
• From: AVR (@ 143.127.3.10) on: Tue Feb 26 00:12:09 EST 2002
  
  This is such a great topic. I quite realise that there are some really knowledgeable people here. Such a blessing.
  
  If the person who was posting with the nick "future of music" see this, please - you havent written to me. I am quite eager to know Ramanujan's discoveries. I saw the links u suggested but they merely give his life-history and not his mathematical contributions.
  
  Thanks,
  AVR
  
  
• From: Krishnamurthy (@ 198.102.112.18) on: Tue Feb 26 01:39:28 EST 2002
  
  How is replacing an instrument a math operation? Are u the same MS that we have known?
  
  

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