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Shankar-Jaikishan & Illyaraja

Topic started by Indian Music Fan (@ 204.50.249.133) on Fri Jun 1 12:15:20 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

SJ were certainly the most prolific and best MD's of their time. They were responsible for the most number of hits during their reign at the top. I think they can certainly match up to Illyaraja in terms of quality, quantity and versatality. If Jaikishan hadn't passed away in 71, they would have definetly ruled over RDB, LP or any other challenge that would have come their way in the future. They were legends and were very excellent. What do you guys think ??

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Responses:

• From: TFM page (@ 63.224.65.186) on: Fri Jun 1 12:21:17 EDT 2001
  
  Did SJ do Tamil film?
  
  
• From: Indian Music Fan (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Fri Jun 1 12:37:22 EDT 2001
  
  yes SJ did some tamil films as well as some other southern films too. I don't know the names of them but you should go check with a person who knows old TFM music.
  
  
• From: yaaro (@ 172.139.1.55) on: Fri Jun 1 14:15:24 EDT 2001
  
  for once, atleat I agree with you-they were good,ahead of their times till at some stage their music went out of fashion.
  how many did they score?
  
  
• From: Indian Music Fan (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Fri Jun 1 15:16:29 EDT 2001
  
  I have heard from several sources that they did over 300 movies and from another source i heard they did over 500. I also heard there was an infight between the two and their relationship started to crack a bit towards the early seventies. All in all, they were ahead of their times and were certainly very creative.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.208) on: Fri Jun 1 16:35:15 EDT 2001
  
  IMF: Please list some of those songs which you thought were "ahead of their times" by SJ.
  
  
• From: Indian Music Fan (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Fri Jun 1 19:21:23 EDT 2001
  
  Here is a list of those songs:
  
  a)Dil Tera Deewana hai sanam - Dil tera deewana (rafi, lata)
  b)An Evening In Paris (all the songs of this movie especially the title song)
  c)Yahoo, chaie koi mughe junglee ka hai- Junglee (rafi)(this song became the buzz of a whole generation)
  d)Brahamchari (all the songs)
  e)Jab Pyar Kisi se hota hai- title song (rafi)
  f)Kaun hai jo sapno mein aya- Jhuk gaya Aasman (rafi)
  g)Tumse Acha kaun hai (all the songs)
  h)Dil ruba dil pe tu - Rajkumar (rafi, asha)
  i)Chera tera Allah Allah Masha Teri - Tum Haseen Mein Jawan (rafi)
  
  The list can go on and on. You should go hear these songs for yourself and then tell me your opinion. SJ brought western melodies way before RDB did. They were responsible for bringing Western music into movies and setting that trend, not RDB. As you can see, basically all these songs are sung by the one and the only Mohd.Rafi which shows his versatality in singing western numbers, especially for Shammi Kapoor which had energy no one will be able to match and Rafi was the only one who could sing for him.
  
  
• From: lv (@ 203.197.82.107) on: Sat Jun 2 10:07:16 EDT 2001
  
  dear IMF:
  
  Please understand that this is a TAMIL music forum. It is wrong to discuss HFM here. I made the mistake some time back, cos even I love old HFM. If u love HFM so much, join the lata mangeshkar fan clubs:
  www.clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/latamangeshkar
  www.clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ashabhosale
  
  and www.mohdrafi.com.
  
  It is definitely wrong to keep on creating all these HFM threads here. Why not discuus HFM amongst HFM fans. You may contact me via e-mail
  (lvlvlv@indiatimes.com).
  
  And please stop this - I say this though i am an HFM fan also.
  
  
• From: Indian Music Fan (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Sat Jun 2 23:01:18 EDT 2001
  
  lv, i understand that this is a TFM page and not a HFM page and i shouldn't be listing HFM songs. But rajaG asked me to list some songs of SJ that is why i listed them here. I want people to just discuss Sj and Illyaraja and their music. I will contact you to discuss HFM.
  
  See ya !!
  
  
• From: Sugrutha (@ 65.11.240.45) on: Sun Jun 3 14:37:34 EDT 2001
  
  HFM with its bigger reach attracted musicians from all over. Even VR are supposed to have composed songs for some south-based films although credit was not given. So there was a very wide variety. SJ were certainly very creative and came up with a lot of melodies that sounded new. But OP Nayyar had plenty of new tunes too. Only his beats were unchanging. But as for bringing in western music, I am not sure. Salil Chowdury was there too. The others, although did not make too many forays into the western realms, did come up with surprises everytime they ventured. Remember Naushad's "majhe huzoor tumse" or MadanMohan's "shaukh nazar ki", "tumse kahoon ek baat", "tumjo mil gaye ho" ? I will not say that they were ahead of their times. If they were, that means people were not ready for them yet, so they would not have been commercial successes :-)
  
  But I am not getting into comparisons between SJ and IR. Each MD has given us listening pleasures, some gave more by way of quantity (not pleasure but songs), some less, but that does not matter.
  
  
• From: lv (@ 203.197.82.147) on: Sun Jun 3 23:21:58 EDT 2001
  
  sugrutha,
  
  yes I agree with u largely.
  
  
• From: IR Fan (@ 4.54.221.0) on: Mon Jun 4 22:51:25 EDT 2001
  
  At one poitn SJ captivated me, there were some duets and pathos and exuberant songs that were just too brilliant for Indian films. However, thiee orhestration and the sound of violins were just too erratic. i think that pissed me off. Pls no compare to IR. IR traversed a 1000 times more sounds and genres than all of the indian mds put together. worng, buddy to compare anyone or a bunch of anyones including ARR in that bunch with IR. absurd. simply rash, just ludicrous, i am shacked, just smasht, repellt and tosst. i feel ashamt, blatantly missiled.... is this a joke or what? someone please help us outahere
  
  
• From: Indian Music Fan (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Mon Jun 4 23:12:41 EDT 2001
  
  The songs that you pointed out such as Tum Jo Mil gaye ho was in 1970. SJ did many western type songs before that. Salil Choudary brought in his western touches after SJ did. Naushad also had used western orchestra in his compositions but the concept of western orchestra really gained ground under SJ. SJ brought western orchestration into their music starting back when they first started in the 50's with the RK banner. SJ and IR each have their own styles which are both good. SJ's orchestra was brilliant and i have seen no other MD have that kind of powerful orchestration. To say that it was erratic is kind of going off-line because they were composing their orchestra in a fast and rythmic way. Their notes were steeply scaled and they had an excellent touch.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Jun 5 01:06:38 EDT 2001
  
  IMF is an idiot in all sense, that implies his musical knowledge too. Can someone close this thread?
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Jun 5 01:08:49 EDT 2001
  
  To say that it was erratic is kind of going off-line because they were composing their orchestra in a fast and rythmic way. Their notes were steeply scaled and they had an excellent touch...
  
  If you give a monkey a pencil and paper ask it to write notes, and conduct the orchestra as well - it will also sound in a "fast and rythmic way". But only a dumba** like u will say it is music.
  
  Please put an end to this thread...
  
  
  
• From: Indian Music Fan (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Tue Jun 5 08:17:54 EDT 2001
  
  They conducted their orchestra for many dance songs which their orchestra was fast. If a person puts notes together it doesn't necessarily mean it is fast. My my, this is coming from a person who thinks he knows music. Just put the logic together, If it is a fast-paced orchestra then it is sure to be dance songs or fast-paced songs, and this differs from a normal orchestrated song, IF you know what i'm talking about. Please don't bring in baseless arguments such as i don't know anything about music. I am giving solid facts and probably know more than you !!
  
  
• From: Sugrutha (@ 65.11.240.45) on: Tue Jun 5 09:15:44 EDT 2001
  
  If you simply want to compare IR and SJ, here it is. SJ lacked 'style' and 'finish'. Just like O.P.Nayyar. Their songs were given the 'style' by Rafi, Geeta and Asha. The 'richness', they (SJ) could pull of with Lata. They (SJ) could not do anything with Sharadha or Suman. S.D.Burman and Madanmohan had more 'style' in their compositions. And when it comes to 'stylishness' IR is unbeatable. Absolutely no one there yet.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.207) on: Tue Jun 5 12:09:43 EDT 2001
  
  lv: Nobody objects to references of HFM artists or mentioning their virtues in this forum. All I asked for is a substantiation for IMF's claims that SJ had presented "ahead of their times" music. IMF did not disappoint my expectations. He has confirmed that he is clueless in understanding music and merely thrives on quoting comments of passers-by, and mostly out of context.
  Addressed in general:
  It is a general opinion among hardcore IR fans that there were many aspects of FM which IR touched, either as a pioneer, or in a unique manner, or atleast to bring a distinctive "IR" stamp. For example, there are thousands of numbers one may quote where other MDs (H or TFM) have used a combo of violins and flute. But yet, IR's handling of flute and violins was unique - please check poongaatru pudhidhaanadhu from 'moondram pirai'. And IR followed this with many many other wonderful numbers.
  
  All I am asking for is, if somebody wishes to compare artist A with artist B, please list out the features which each artist has brought out in his/her creation. Merely listing out their creations shows a clear deficiency of an analytical mind.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Indian Music Fan (@ 206.47.240.86) on: Tue Jun 5 13:01:07 EDT 2001
  
  Raja G, you asked for some songs which showed that they are ahead of their times not what each music director brought out. make yourself CLEAR that you want creations or songs of the MD. All i want is your opinion on SJ and Illyaraja and both their music. I said they were ahead of their times because another person before me also said the same thing (yaaro was this person) and i agreed with them and i gave you proof because you asked for proof through songs. If you wanted creations than you just had to say it. When you don't get what you want you just go about blasting people that they don't have musical knowledge. You yourself probably don't have that much musical knowledge to judge others on what you wanted. I listed for you what you wanted ok. I just wanted your opinion on both their styles and what you think. Same with swamiji who just blasts people if he doesn't agree with them and gives baseless proofs on his arguments. I didn't start anything bad against you guys, all i wanted was your opinion because i gave you my opinion. if people say something wrong about something which shouldn't be said wrong about, then i will correct them with solid proofs just like Shruti does. Please don't start to fight. It only shows your ignorance if you do. I don't want to fight or argue anyone based on baseless and crazy arguments. Let's all get along and voice our opinions and correct one another if they are blasting something which doesn't deserve blasting .
  Sugrutha, what do you mean they lacked style and finish. SJ had the most variety out of all their contemporaries including MM and SDB. They had their class stamp on all their creations and their own style. When you hear a SJ song, you know it is by SJ just by listening to the music. Rafi, Lata, Asha, they all made their songs even better, but it was due to their music that their songs became a hit, not just the singers. A person who knows their music will tell you this.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Jun 5 14:30:15 EDT 2001
  
  IMF, I seriously think you know nothing about music. Plus, if you even know IR's music, you would not compare him with anyone. I have heard both SJ's and IR's music, and to me IR's music is brilliant. I am not comparing here, but I certaily have enough sense to know what is "brilliant" music. Have you observed IRs music at all? Have you listened closely to his film scores? Even after listening to them how can you even think of comparing??
  IR has played the guitar for SJ, and at a later point of time, in an interview IR's topic came up. To that SJ said only one word about IR "Genius". Do you compare someone with a genius? Get a life man, and sharpen your mind. Oops sorry, i forgot u dont have one...
  
  
  

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