Topic started by JPM (@ 194.85.200.36) on Thu Sep 19 02:41:10 EDT 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
Now you cant go to Jerry Goldsmith and say Morricone was better.. or go to
John Williams and say he is a lowlife and say someone else was better. You are sure to be smacked right across your face.
The reason being, its simply a matter of taste. Since, all arguments on the quality of music are mostly arbitrary
and tend to be highly subjective.. the commercial success of an album will be a more objective criterion for
rating a composer. Also, it must be noted that if an album fails, its not as if the composer has fizzled out..
it only signifies the composer has not been in the best of his forms in that particular album. No one in their right mind
can say for instance, En Mana Vaanil flopped so Raja is out for sure. the same goes for Baba..
However, since one album's success cannot reflect on composer's success, consistency is what is taken as the next criteria. We rate success
over a period of time. the basic criteria is.. Volume of hits to no. of movies. Once this is done, it will be instantly clear which composer is successful at this point of time or has been for this many years. Yet,
you must realize we are talking about only success and not quality. They are interdependent but not exclusively so.
If you think quality must be rated, then its only going to lead to further pointless arguments such as "I like him,
my friends like him, My White boss said his bgm is great, my brother's hindi-speaking friend was blown away.. so What the Hell?"
and these debaters conveniently deduce from their anecdotal evidence that the one who argues otherwise is a nut case and
promptly suggest so. This results in threads being populated with obscenities which we can live without.
anyway, now few questions to both ar rahman and raja fans.. answer whichever concerns you
1. What innovations have raja and rahman done respectively in tfm? Again, no anecdotes, no numerical advantage etc.
(I know this has been done in tfm page for a long long while but heck, it would be interesting to recap than to watch newtfmpage
rot in shame)
2. Why do you think Rahman/ Raja is commercially successful?
3. Why do you think Rahman/ Raja is internationally acclaimed?
4. Quote some memorable bgms or interludes which you think fellow df-ers will like too. (my gripe is these days newtfmpage threads lose
focus and look like some public chat room) Will be better if u can give links to those bits.
5. Try to listen to a famous/relatively album of Other composer and do a sincere review and try to list out the good things about the album
after all, every album will have some good thing in it that you will like..(without resorting to he knows only dham-dhamakku
or he is only sound engineer et al) If you are dissed by some bad aspects of the album.. do post it but politely so that other df-ers will not be
offended.
6. Anything else you can think of..
I know all those longtimers sighing.. but dont u think this is better than personal mudslingings and obscenities?
lets see how long this thread continues to talk about music only without abusing composers/fellow df-ers...
Game on..
Responses:
- From: cosmician (@ 195.229.241.234)
on: Thu Sep 19 04:14:52 EDT 2002
Good thread...JPM....:-)
But I am afraid that it may go the same way as numerous threads !
But here is my contribution :
I compare the "working styles" of IR and ARR to Mozart and Beethoven respectively.
Mozart is a genius who churned out compositions at a drop of a hat. Beethoven took time and reedited and rewrote to his heart's content.
Before this flames this thread, DFers please note that I have compared only the "working styles". All these composers are from a different eras and have contributed in different genres of music. Will continue later.
- From: ambleen (@ 202.95.121.98)
on: Thu Sep 19 05:07:14 EDT 2002
JPM,
You can't compare a kid to legend. That's the truth. You can compare JG, JW or EM to IR but surely there is no way you can or you should compare ARR to any of them. Come on plz, even our humble ARR would not compare himself to them.
You must know one IMPORTANT thing. JG, JW, EM and IR etc. set out in their life to become composers. ARR did not. They set out to be one and that too became very extraordinary talented composers. ARR just intended to be a jingle maker or song accompaniment. But definitely not a composer. And second thing. He got spotted by chance.
When some one who did not have the intention to be a composer or did not intend to do what they other ppl claim on his behalf, it becomes very very ludricous when you do this kind of comparison.
- From: Yes Vee (@ 210.212.49.14)
on: Thu Sep 19 06:27:28 EDT 2002
Ambleen
you don't hav a point.considering the origin,i.e. on what intention ppl setout early, is no criterion to judge composers.there is always a play of Destiny,regardless of our acknowledgement.consider how a person has evolved.although ARR started out on jingles etc. he has certainly improved a lot.he has expanded his musical horizons,has tried new variations and although he has started churning out craps like BABA,we must consider the background circumstances.[BABA deserved that kind of music.]
Raja has been around for 25 years,but has he added anything new w.r.t his approach to orchestration?he still uses his old style.he has'nt completely adapted to changing trends.we are not questioning his ability as a master composer.but he lacks that critical variation.even if he does show some signs of change they are very subtle for a average music lover to appreciate.they get tired of his style.
how long can ppl go on listening to the same tabla & guitar combo that Raja uses mindlessly.the songs may be sweet but it tires you soon.
- From: Are Yaar (@ 203.197.141.186)
on: Thu Sep 19 06:50:40 EDT 2002
Can't this good thread go with out a fight.?
- From: Rajesh (@ 203.92.84.161)
on: Thu Sep 19 07:10:49 EDT 2002
Thorn in the flower
- From: ambleen (@ 202.156.2.138)
on: Thu Sep 19 11:11:53 EDT 2002
Yes Vee,
No. You are wrong. Nothing or nobody in music 'comes by' by luck. It may be true for say ppl like like Gandhi or some ppl who's been taught some lesson in life. But in certain other areas, no. In music, A BIG NO. In sports, no. Look at Md. Ali. He's the greatest coz of what had he set out to do. Hell sake, talk abt music. Look at all the greatest composers of today and yesterday. Look at all the greatest musician past & present from Benny Goodman to Iron Maiden. What you said does not apply in music. You think any one of the was destined or evolved to the level of 'conquering the world'.
"Raja has been around for 25 years"
Very true. He has done everything. Its too mundane to score for another love story shooting at your backyard gardens.
"how long can ppl go on listening to the same tabla & guitar combo that Raja uses mindlessly.the songs may be sweet but it tires you soon"
Pls, he's done everything. It's all up to the individual how much he wants to listen to. Rahman's 'radio voice' in En Swasa Katre & Jodi in this century was already done by IR in early 80's. What i'm saying is for those who are talking abt IR without knowing what's out there by him....be prepared.
- From: Jeera (@ 206.175.176.2)
on: Thu Sep 19 12:18:36 EDT 2002
JPM
can we close the thread now.
- From: Lord LabakuDas (@ 12.162.224.5)
on: Thu Sep 19 12:24:29 EDT 2002
ambleen spoils the thread..and again this time its an IR fan who starts the mud slinging first..
ambleen sir..just say whatever u like abt IR and stay away and watch..ok va?
- From: fed-up (@ 210.186.60.79)
on: Thu Sep 19 12:40:28 EDT 2002
God, where art thou?
- From: Awe (@ 65.69.45.38)
on: Thu Sep 19 13:20:48 EDT 2002
God will appear only when i come.. his only target is me.. hehe.. So for fed-up's sake i enter into this thread. Actually IR's songs have been analyzed so well.. his ability in carnatic, wetsern classic, folk are still being analyzed so well in various threads.
"Raja has been around for 25 years,but has he added anything new w.r.t his approach to orchestration?" - Yes Vee
Probably one of the stupidest observation made by a TFM fan. He is the king of orchestration. This is called talking without sense and knowledge.
"
As far as i am concerned, i would say Ilaiyaraja is the composer of the century. If there is one single authority on 'orchestration' it can only be ilaiyaraja
- Dr.Balamuralikrishna ( South Indian Classical Music Virtuoso )* "
He is an excellent exponent of fusion music. Listen to Kavithai Kelungal song. It is such an artistic orchestration. He is one guy who paid so much attention to how the singers deliver the song. Just listen to the interludes of "Thumbi vaa" from the movie Olangal.. filled with passion.
It is such a delightful composition by Illayraja.
Music is not only measured with modern music arrangments. There is some thing called "GRACE" factor.. How graceful the composition is.. Just like how well Dravid plays his on drive. Lot of people plays ondrive.. Why Dravid looks so beautiful while playing? That is what IR is about. When he composes be it a folk song, carnatic song, disco song, fusion song, dappanguthu song.. he pays attention to vocals,
musical arrangments, situation of the movie and everything. In Nayagan.. we have three versions of Then Pandi Cheemaiyile.. can you plz. some one tell me the difference between the versions and how it associates with the movie? Just watch Rakkamma Kaya Thattu... song.. it starts with a fast beat song.. suddenly you find in the middle shobana and co doing classical dance for the same song with a slower version of that song in the middle. He is one guy who is totally committed to how well his songs contribute to the plot of the story. Listen to Ennuyir Neethane and Akkarai cheemai Azaginile.. The tune, vocals, orchestration perfectly fit the movie. Agaya vennilave (Roopaga Thaalam) , Pari Jatha Poove,
Naan Sirithal.. songs were composed like oldies.. Experimentation is second nature to Illayaraja.. Hope i get more inputs on this ability of IR.
- From: Awe (@ 65.69.45.38)
on: Thu Sep 19 13:45:20 EDT 2002
Ok it is totally out of place to post this... For Dravid Fans... ( I am a fan of big 'Three')
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sports/sportsstorydisplay.cfm?storyID=2797043&thesection=sport&thesubsection=cricket&thesecondsubsection=international
- From: Awe (@ 65.69.44.15)
on: Thu Sep 19 15:44:03 EDT 2002
JPM "niceaga" En Mana Vanile flopunnu solleetinga..
How do you know that is a flop? Important thing is Cover was shown to the buyer before they bought it.
Cassettes were not forced to buy. Still it led the cassette sales according to a report. Movie may be a flop just like Idhaya Kovil. But Songs are hit.. if not like Idhaya Kovil atleast respectable.
- From: God (@ 161.142.100.86)
on: Thu Sep 19 21:02:01 EDT 2002
ambleen is ABSOLUTELY right.
You should NEVER compare ARR with IR.
Many ARR fans get angry and worked up because they DO NOT know history. Truth is they don't care for IR's music THREFORE they know almost next to nothing about IR.
Which makes it easy for people to say all they want about IR and place him in a mythical pedestal, and the naive ordinary ARR fan cannot question since he does not know any better.
No let me DEMYSTIFY IR.
Unlike ARR, IR was not born into a music family although he liked to write his own songs. The magic of cinema was very attractive although thoughts of orchestration and symphony were non-existent at this time. This attraction was wahat drove him on.
He, his brothers and friends came together and started peddling their music. These kind of people were generally called "koothaadis". However, they were unable to even get a decent meal from their earnings, peddling their music, because people just didn't like their music. Anyway, TN is bustling with talent, so they were just 11 out of 10 (pathodu pathinonnu.) Nobody recognised them and no one gave them any chances.
And then time (NERAM) came! In the form of Panju Arunasalam. Annakkili was born. IR approached LRE to sing the songs (she usually sang theru koothu songs). But looking at him, LRE turned him down. It was her NERAM.
Some how Annakkili became a hit. Movies then were mainly city-based and Annakkili with its village theme probably offered some thing different. Anyway, the bottom line is, it was NERAM.
Because the movie was a hit, the songs also became hit. The songs were not great, BUT they became a hit. Lady Luck must have smiled upon IR.
Looking back, some 27 years later, we can see that there was absolutely nothing special in the songs of Annakkili. Nobody actually listens to those songs nowadays. The songs are nowhere the class of say, Roja songs, which still sound fresh even after ten years.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, it was 5% talent, 5% hard work and 90% Luck, that brought IR to where he is now. I know that this is shocking to the younger set of TFM listeners, but this is the truth and which has been masked quite well until now.
BUT, we have to give IR one thing; he is intelligent to a certain extent. He learned fast. From the simple tunes of Annakkili, he progressed experimenting and testing. That is why you can see a marked difference in his songs of 1975 and say 1982.
In other words, he GREW with experience and was not born talented.
Of course, I cannot condense a 40 year old story in a few paragraphs, but I hope the above will give some ideas to the younger generation on the rise and fall of IR.
So, ARR fans, do not ever compare ARR who was born talented, with IR who came up with pure LUCK.
As everyone can see, I have written all the above WITHOUT abusing any one here and if the same civility is shown in the responses, we can continue respectfully.
List all pages of this thread
Post comments
Forums: Current Topics - Ilayaraja Albums - A.R. Rahman Albums - TFM Oldies - Fun & Games
Ilaiyaraja: Releases - News - Share Music - AR Rahman: Releases - News - AOTW - Tweets -
Discussions: MSV - YSR - GVP - Song Requests - Song stats - Raga of songs - Copying - Tweets
Database: Main - Singers - Music Director's - Lyricists Fun: PP - EKB - Relay - Satires - Quiz