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Western & Indian

Topic started by Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on Thu Aug 23 17:21:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have seen the following comments a lot of times in this DF.

"the instruments used are western" .... "This song is like "western music" " etc..

I want to know, what is the definition of tamil sounding music and what are tamil instruments? I asked this question to a well know lyricist and he asked me to look up "silapathigaram" for the answer. I dont think he was trying to answer my question.

Among the instruments that have been used in the last 4 decades by tfm MD's I think a majority of instruments were western.

So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?

for e.g I wud say guitar, violin, flute, drums etc as western instruments and tabala as Indian (although i dunno if its tamilian) ------ to shatter some myths about the western/indian definitions.

so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades. and shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.

I am more interested in tamilain than Indian.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.236) on: Wed Sep 5 17:48:08 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath,
  
  I think we are seeing two sides of the same coin.Tell me what you make of this cultural situation people are in?Are we following the right ideals of our culture(from life style to music)?
  
  
• From: KS (@ 165.122.128.128) on: Wed Sep 5 18:59:15 EDT 2001
  
  Trend,
  U have mentioned a couple of ex: which the media has publicized. And we all know there are many more like that which have not come to light. Let them be so. But, wld u like that to be ur way of life? No (probably:) nakkalthaan, mannikkanam). Let there be less of it. But it should not become our way of life.
  
  Similarly, in TFM/IFM, let there be some non-Indian element. Nobody is saying that it should sound purely Carnatic/folk/Tamilian/Indian. Let it even sound completely western once in a while. But, it would be sad if it becomes a trend. I think if we are to take our music to places, then we should sound more Indian most of the time.
  
  Also, I’ve never really heard much of rap or understood those lyrics. For that matter, not exposed to much of western music. But still, yengendho ketkum…koncham MTVlayum paarththiruken :)
  
  /*
  Though there are no examples ,I believe even a atheist can become great.
  */
  If u have never heard of any or known any, I wonder how u can believe!? Anyway, …
  
  /*
  It's just that in India,the passion is there only for GOD or something religious
  */
  Yes. Probably because, we know other passions are farce and don’t help us up-hold our cultural values. And is it not a reality that other passions don’t help us realize “the Divine spirit in our hearts” (is somebody reading “just for the heck of it”!!!:)), they don’t help you “to find God in anything”. MTV certainly is not the way:) (answer therilannu sonnango, adhan answer pannen:))
  
  Also, notice that they don’t play pop/rock/rap etc., in-front of/inside a place of worship. These genres of music are primarily used to provide ‘cool fun’ (“primarily” means “most of the time”, not “always”). It is only our music that can be played in-front/inside places of worship. But why? Give it a thought.
  
  Talking of realizing the Divine spirit within oneself or the ultimate Truth, I am sure rock/pop/rap or other non-Indian music/culture can be of no help to us - Indians. It is only our music and devotional/spiritual/religious inclinations that can be of help to us in this divinely endeavor.
  
  Which is again why, our TFM/IFM should sound more Indian.
  
  /*
  So you win here.:)
  */
  There is nothing like u or me winning/losing here. What matters is whether we all win or lose, whether TFM/IFM wins or losses. And believe me, if at all we lose, we will not know it till it is quiet late:(
  
  Anyway, lets enjoy TFM/IFM now hoping for better music.
  
  (Trend, I’m sorry if I sounded a little sarcastic. U earlier posting to me made me feel so (i.e., sorry!!). Just took some liberty…2-3 times nakkal avvalavuthaan. adhayum specify pannen. So, don’t mistake it to be disrespect towards u as I know u r very knowledgeable than me…believe me. It is just that I am quiet young to many here and am not very serious kind of a person… So, just brush it aside as childishness...something silly. Anyway, u won’t see much of me here. Yedho indha threadla theriyaama maatindhutten:))
  
  
• From: ravi (@ 167.230.227.60) on: Wed Sep 5 19:04:40 EDT 2001
  
  /* I have a Jazz vocals CD where the women is singing about here lover being nice/having affair with another woman. Mind you she is not angry, she is just sad and envious about the other women. Different culture, you see. */
  No, this is not different from our culture. This is what most of the bharathanatyam songs are about, about women longing for their man to come back to them when they are having an affair with some other woman. And kaNNagi was not angry with kovalan, she was just sad.
  Anyway, this is not true in real life, with any society. Women everywhere would be more angry than sad when they are cheated on.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 63.232.53.154) on: Wed Sep 5 19:24:43 EDT 2001
  
  KS,
  
  I don't take anything personally.I was just exploring the possibilities and trying to understand what our culture is all about and what kind of music could benefit our culture in a idealistic sort of way rather than how we practice it today.You don't have to apologize for being sarcastic or whatever.It's all in the game.:-)
  
  I think ravi has a point.If women are only sad wouldn't they be dumb losers.:-)
  
  PS:Posting from a different Computer.
  
  
• From: ravi (@ 167.230.227.60) on: Wed Sep 5 19:30:07 EDT 2001
  
  /*fire talks about sexual preferences, which may/maynot be suppressed in india. but the fact is homo sexual tendency does not prominently figure in india. inciting or posing a picture as if it is the latest fad in india was disgusting! */
  Deepa Mehta was not portraying lesbianism as the latest fad in India. She was proposing it as a solution for women to get what they are denied. Infact, the movie portrayed Indian women as being slaves to their husbands, which is quite true.
  
  
• From: Bharath] (@ 172.135.245.64) on: Wed Sep 5 23:24:28 EDT 2001
  
  //"She was proposing it as a solution for women to get what they are denied."//
  
  okay! I accept u are right! she was trying to intro it as a latest fad!
  
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.5.214) on: Thu Sep 6 01:26:55 EDT 2001
  
  KS & Kiru,
  It's quite interesting to note that Indians (with no single moral code but multiple schools -even within Hindu background- & each acceptable to different groups) are relatively much better off than the so-called-Christians of the west:-)) If at all they (westerners) are serious about their professed religion, then the moral code is very strict & lofty (To quote Jesus, one who is just looking at a woman with sexual interest has already committed adultery in his heart...and such ones will be better off without eyes...)
  
  Means, most don't care about religion/spiritual values in the west and the culture is primarily atheistic / agnostic. The popular music of west has to obviously reflect that.
  
  However, there ARE seriously religious people in west too, and to my knowledge most of them favour listening to WCM, obviously because of the plentiful use of WCM in choirs / religious music.
  
  By this line of thought, any dose of WCM may not affect our culturual / spiritual values, IMO!
  
  
• From: rf (@ 152.163.204.83) on: Thu Sep 6 02:36:03 EDT 2001
  
  Eden, good point. There are a lot of choral works and also most of Bach's work were works for the church. I think that must have appealed to IR a lot.
  
  
• From: suresh (@ 202.88.155.34) on: Thu Sep 6 03:44:41 EDT 2001
  
  an interesting discussion...
  
  Bharath, did i read somewhere that you were a psychology student (or teacher)?. I've noticed your strong feelings towards 'gays', so much so you even flinch from using the word. Presuming you live in the USA, would such expression be culturally appropriate to the society you chose to live by CHOICE?
  
  I will not debate the merits of respecting one's sexual orientation here, but let me just point our that there are innumerable references to homosexuality in our temple architecture, cultural and religious archives.
  
  We can also, privately, get into the extra-marital preferences of a substantial number of Indians, one that makes us one of the most HIV-affected nations in the world. To imagine that all those getting affected are 'marginal' sections of the society would be a travesty of reality. The underbelly of our society is far more complex than the simplistic understanding that our strata professes.
  
  KS, I think we're treading on fine ground by equating music with religious affiliation. How could an IR in his post-spiritual days tune to so many obscene lyrics, how a Vaali can profess 'samanjadhu eppadi' with equal fervour as 'amma endrazhaikkadha'? Commercial motives? Then would MONEY not be a contextually stronger centrepoint than whatever values we're talking about. If many decades ago, crossing the seas was forbidden in one's culture, today havent many enlarged its scope by assimilating many 'foreign' practices such as meat-eating, etc.? Would you call it wrong, dangerous, realistic, contextual, or broad-mindedness?
  
  Why must you always deride 'alien' culture, when there are so many things - equality, women's rights, work ethic, etc. - that can one learn positively from it? Hasn't the very same culture you mock given you the equal opportunity that many are denied in India? If you have a problem with the nightclubbing or dating in the west, so would a westerner find forced marriages, female infanticide, and casteism obnoxious in a professedly mature cultural landscape.
  
  I understand that you and many here are deeply religious and spiritual, but pls. don't universalise your choices as THE RIGHT choices. You certainly are no arbiter of what's right or absolute. It will take you and me much more of our living and being open to understand what life is all about.
  
  I can't force you to be more tolerant, if not understanding, of other's beliefs and value systems, but the least you could do is stop generalising.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Thu Sep 6 10:49:29 EDT 2001
  
  //"I've noticed your strong feelings towards 'gays', so much so you even flinch from using the word. "//
  
  well! i didnt know if this web site filter wud let the word thro! since it has let urs I have no qualms in using the word "GAY" :-)
  
  be bak in a while...
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Thu Sep 6 11:26:16 EDT 2001
  
  //"innumerable references to homosexuality in our temple architecture, cultural and religious archives. "//
  
  I would like to know what they are! frankly I dont believe it! but if there is something I am missing I wud certainly like to know it!
  
  
  //"get into the extra-marital preferences of a substantial number of Indians, one that makes us one of the most HIV-affected nations in the world"//
  
  again allusion to some thing that at best can be described as a myth! AIDS , i agree can come thro indiscrimnate sex. but not only thro' that! you know it! I neednt explain the other reasons. there was a movie that came a while before called "inba noi aids " i cud only sympathize with the producer!:-)
  
  again by sheer # of our population even a small fraction will make us the #1 in numbers.
  
  //". To imagine that all those getting affected are 'marginal' sections of the society would be a travesty of reality. "//
  
  as far as AIDS is concerned the people affected are in specific pockets of the soceity and yes they are a very low % .
  
  
  
  

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