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Naive questions about Carnatic music

Topic started by RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on Thu Dec 11 15:49:34 EST 1997.
All times in EDT/EST +9:30/10:30 for IST.

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Responses:

• From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Thu Dec 11 15:58:20 EST 1997
  
  First of all, let me make it very clear that what I know about Carnatic music can be summarized on a pinhead.
  
  
  Recently, I was talking to a knowledgeable person and she told me about Maya Malava Gowla. In fact she taught me to play the basic notes on a keyboard. The song she used to illustrate this Raga was "Sri Gana Natha".
  
  The notes were:
  
  Ma Pa Tha Sa Sa Ri
  Ri Sa Tha Pa Ma Pa
  Ri Ma Pa Tha Ma Pa
  Tha Pa Ma Ga Ri Sa
  Sa Ri Maa Ga Ri Sa Ri Ga Ri Sa
  
  Frankly, I was impressed by the musical effect. I wanted to find out film songs in Maya Malava Gowla so that I can relate better to this Raga. Obviously, I turned to TFM.
  
  
  I cant see how songs like
  "Enna Paattu Paada", "Manjal Nilavukku", "Senthaazham Poovil", "Andappuratthil Oru Maharani", "Mookkutthi Poo Mele", "Nandoorudhu" etc. hv the same notes structure as Sri Gana Natha.
  
  Let me add that I am an ignoramus. I would like to know the answer so that I can enjoy music better. So flaming me is fine, but pl. give me an answer and then flame me!
  
  
• From: Chandrasekaran (CS) (@ palo4.pacific.net.sg) on: Thu Dec 11 19:40:03 EST 1997
  
  Good discussion on Raagas in TFM is being held under the thread, Raaga of Song Please.
  You may find some useful information there. I think the songs you mentioned did follow this raaga.
  
  
• From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.135.224) on: Thu Dec 11 20:13:52 EST 1997
  
  RV
  
  For your info, "Sri gana natha" is not MMGowla.
  It is Malahari. The conspicuous difference
  is in the absence of Ni.
  
  Well.. what are your questions, btw? : )
  
  
• From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Thu Dec 11 21:57:29 EST 1997
  
  Rajaraman:
  
  Obviously my teacher wasnt all that knowledgeable! Are the notes at least correct ? It does solve part of the mystery; why none of these songs had the swara structure I expected them to.
  
  A related question:
  If all these songs hv the basic swara structure, the songs should sound identical - at least similar. These songs dont hv an identical tune; similar tune - maybe? "Enna Paattup Paada" and "Andhappurrathil Oru Maharani" dont sould similar. Sure, "Andhappuratthil" sounds similar to "Manjal Nilaavukku". At least the meter - chandam - looks similar. How are they based on the same raga ?
  
  
• From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Thu Dec 11 21:59:11 EST 1997
  
  Rajaraman:
  
  Also, if the swara structure is same, shouldnt the songs sound identical instead of similar ?
  
  
• From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Thu Dec 11 22:04:34 EST 1997
  
  Also,
  
  Couldnt find any songs in Malahari in the TFM page on TFM & Classical Music. Anything that you guys can remember ?
  
  
• From: Kanchana (@ ww-tj06.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu Dec 11 22:13:14 EST 1997
  
  RV:
  
  sri gaNa naadha geedham starts with the notes you had given above. It also includes another set of notes to the best of my knowledge from the part which starts with kundha gowra gowri vara:
  
  tha pa ma ga ri sa // ri ma pa tha ma pa
  tha ri ri sa tha pa // tha pa ma ga ri sa
  saa ree ree // tha pa ma ga ri sa
  sa ri maa ga ri // sa ri ga ri saa
  
  There are also other simpler geedhams in mohanam, kalyaani, aanandha bairavi, sudha saaveri etc. that I've tried out on our piano and the effect is very pleasing.
  
  
• From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.135.224) on: Fri Dec 12 00:04:09 EST 1997
  
  
  Well RV.. you are raising a philosophical
  question.
  
  Ilayaraja once said "Composing music
  is Cheating" !!!. The way to interpret, I
  think, is similar to how you argued.
  Suppose one takes scale, there are only 7
  notes. If one composes a song, all other
  songs on this scale should be similar to this.
  How does compose new songs at all?
  The answer is to "cheat" the human
  mind into believing as if the music were new. : )
  
  I hope you appreciate the point.
  
  According to me, if you are musically sharp,
  you'll see how the same notes are weaved
  into many different songs. If the composer
  is creative enough, it actually doesn't sound
  repetitive but enjoyable. (even to knowledgeable)
  That's the beauty of music..!
  
  BTW, the blame may not be on the music teacher.
  The teachers usually start with MM gowla
  swaras. Once you are somewhat comfortable, they
  go on to "srigana naatha" geetham. Since
  Malahari is a janyam of MMGowla, they feel this
  geetham should be easier. Sometimes they
  don't mention the name Malahari leading one
  to believe this too is MMgowla.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Ramaswamy Gireesan (@ m42.m59.big.ac.at) on: Fri Dec 12 10:39:37 EST 1997
  
  And there is a very good reason why music teachers start off with MMGowla.
  
  Note the pairs of notes SaRi, GaMa, PaDa and NiSa - each pair is made up of adjacent notes. S-R1, G3-M1, P-D1,N3-S : a neat staircase arrangement which helps newbies grasp the basic structure of the raga easily. Was it Purandaradasa who introduced MMGowla as the first step in music teaching? Nice idea, I should say.
  
  
• From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Fri Dec 12 17:20:28 EST 1997
  
  Guys,
  
  I don't know if this question should go in here or in the
  other thread "Raga of Songs". Anyway, I find mAyA mALa gowLa to
  be very meloncholic (or at least that's how I like to play it).
  Especially the nishAdham seems to always send me in a downer. But
  I have not heard any song/krithi in this rAgam that evokes such
  meloncholy (or as the filmi lingo goes, pathos).
  
  Anybody have any comments/info?
  
  aruLarasan
  
  
• From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.135.224) on: Fri Dec 12 21:25:05 EST 1997
  
  aruLarasan,
  
  What do you feel about "Kuyila pudichu
  koondiladachu"(Chinna thambi) ?
  
  
• From: RV (@ 1cust96.max2.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net) on: Sat Dec 13 02:39:39 EST 1997
  
  Rajaraman:
  
  I wanted to think about the answer you had given to my "philosophical" question before I post anything further on it.
  
  Again, pl. note I am an ignoramus on the basics of music. I just like some music and...
  
  
  Similarity between two songs:
  I believe this can come from two things. 1. meter and 2. tune. Sure, songs in the same meter can be sung quite differently e.g. the two versions of "Kaakkai Chiraginile" by MLV? and Jesudas but it does contrinute to the similarity. Meter can be broken up be the Tamil grammar laws into various Asais - Nerasai, Niraiasai etc. e.g. All Kavadi Chindus share the same meter. All venbas share the same meter. "Kaadhalikkum Pennin Kaigal Thottu Neettinaal Chinnath Thagaram Kooda Thangamdhaane" and "Vennilaa Vennilaa Vennilaave Vandhadhe Mudhal Kaadhal" hv the same meter. i.e. the two songs should approximately hv the same pattern of asais.
  
  2. Shouldnt the tune follow the same rules with swaras ( incl. gamakam ) ?
  
  
  
• From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Sun Dec 14 18:45:13 EST 1997
  
  Yes rAjArAman. that's a good one. thanks for reminding.
  
  
• From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Wed Dec 31 13:04:04 EST 1997
  
  Need to sum this one up too!
  
  
• From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Thu Jan 15 15:01:13 EST 1998
  
  Summing up:
  This topic started off with my wondering why MMGowla that I had learnt doesnt correspond to many songs listed in TFM as based on MMG. Turned out that I had learnt Malahari instead. ;-)
  
  
  That brought the part 2 of this topic; If two songs are based on the same Raga, why dont they sound identical ? Rajaraman feels that it is basically the same notes and the composers clever tricks make the listener feel that (s)he is listening to different songs.
  
  
• From: nagarajan (@ freeway.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Apr 14 15:34:41 EDT 1998
  
  This makes me think that our MD's are more
  brilliant than the 'medai cachery' vidwans.
  
  
• From: Sushma (@ ) on: Fri Mar 26 22:29:35 EST 2004
  
  i don't know if this is a response but can i get full song notes for " Sri gana natha". I searched for it in many websites but couldn't find any.
  Thank you
  
  

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