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violin, viola, cello, double bass & carnatic violin what is the difference

Topic started by other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on Tue May 13 13:29:33 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Can someone explain
1)what is the difference between these instruments.
2)And to represent what kind of sound or different moods are these used.
3)what changes are made with the normal violin to be used in carnatic concerts.

Off cource TFM examples will be greatly helpful.

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Responses:

• From: Raj (@ 206.97.63.112) on: Tue May 13 14:53:31 EDT 2003
  
  other_side: I am not sure how much detail you want. It is a big topic and there are lot of books on musical instruments. In short violin,viola,violoncello or just cello and double bass or simply bass are 4 string instruments except for bass which may have five. The size is the difference. Violin is the smallest (shortest)and bass is the longest. Violin and viola are held under the chin. But, cello and bass rest on a stand. You might have seen this in an orchestra. Violin,viola and cello give sharp or bright sound. Bass is somewhat ringing due to the length and plucking. The others are not plucked. The strings are pressed with the left hand while the bow is moved by the rught hand. The carnatic violin is the same instrument used in the west. It was brought to Tamilnadu by one Balusamy Dikshitar (if I remember correctly) in the 18th century. Saarangi was too difficult!!! The difference is in how it is held and bowing. In the west it is held parallel to the body with player standing up or sitting. The hair in the bow is held taut. In carnatic music the violin is held slanted close to the body with the left hand end down. Also, the hair in the bow is not taut. It is loose. The tuning is also different. I am not familiar with TFM where you can hear these instruments distinctly. The all form part of an orchestra. You might want to listen to some western concertos where you can hear each instrument separately. That is all for now. I am responding to some other thread. I will come back when time permits. May be, you will hear from others.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ 206.97.63.112) on: Tue May 13 15:01:11 EDT 2003
  
  Other_side : typo. In the west it is held perpendicular to the body or slightly raised.
  
  
• From: av (@ 132.206.72.96) on: Wed May 14 00:10:53 EDT 2003
  
  Raj,
  
  Can you explain what you mean by "saarangi was too difficult".
  
  Thanks!
  
  
• From: Vj (@ 61.11.83.184) on: Wed May 14 05:17:16 EDT 2003
  
  wd be happy if someone quotes some TFM songs and the instruments' usage in them.
  
  
• From: other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on: Wed May 14 09:57:19 EDT 2003
  
  Apart from size, what is the difference.if violin and viola are almost the same why not just one of them.why should we use both.
  Carnatic violin is different only with the way it is held ??
  
  
• From: Raj (@ 206.97.63.112) on: Wed May 14 11:26:58 EDT 2003
  
  av: At the time carnatic music adopted western violin for accompaniment Sarangi was the accompaniment for Hindhusthani music and to a lesser extent carnatic music. Violin is easier to master than sarangi,even though violin is considered to be the most difficult among western stringed instruments. Violin and sarangi differ a lot. Violin has only four strings, fret and finger board. That makes it easy(?) to fix the length and create the note and its variation with relative ease. Sarangi has three 'playing strings' and several sympathetic strings that may be as high 30 or more depending on the musician. In the violin you press the string again the finger board and may move a little to create the note/sound you want. In the sarangi you have to slide your finger nails to create the note, which is difficult and the lack of fret and finger board makes it even more difficult. This means you need years of learning,practice and control to be a concert calibre sarangi player. Actually, the number of sarangi players is dwindling. Only four or five are left. Even as recent as the fifties the hindusthani vocalists knew sarangi also. Sarangi is considered to be the closest to human voice, as we consider veena to be the closest to human voice. After all, what the accompanist is trying to do is to recreate exactly what the vocalist has created. Being closer to voice in addition to the notes makes the music more enjoyable. You might want to listen to Ram Narayan, Sultan Khan or Sabri Khan playing Sarangi. other_side: Carnatic violin is tuned differently. violin and viola: Exactly! Only violin is used in carnatic music. In an orchestra some composers like the slight difference in sound for the effect they try to create. It may be redundant for our music. In western orchestra, sometimes you will hear the music progressing from violin to viola to cello to bass and also in the reverse order. We do not do that in film music ( I have not seen that) unless the modern directors/composers do that. You are right violin and bass may be sufficient. We just adopted the western orchestra without any changes, unlike the violin where we changed the tuning . Vj: If I come across any TFM with distinct sounds of the different string instruments. There was a cassette of Balamuralikrishna's viola. Yes! the vocalist playing viola. You might want to listen to that
  
  
• From: av (@ 132.216.68.109) on: Wed May 14 12:48:23 EDT 2003
  
  Raj:
  
  That was a wonderful post. Thank you so much. Yes, I have heard snippets of BMK playing the viola!
  
  Personally, my "favourite instrument" is the Sarangi. I prefer the Sarangi accompaniment in Hindustani classical vocal concerts to the regular use of the harmonium. But yes, the Sarangi is soon going to become an "extinct" instrument. There aren't too many Sarangi maestroes, and moeover, there is the "stigma" that is associated with this instrument and its players. In Hindi films, the Sarangi has almost always been used only in "mujraas", till O P Nayyar started using it regularly in all his songs, even the romantic and sprightly ones!
  
  
• From: Raj (@ 206.97.63.112) on: Wed May 14 12:57:36 EDT 2003
  
  av: I am with you. I like the Sarangi and have collected every recording I could find, mostly 33 rpm and classical. There is absolutely no comparison between harmonium and sarangi. They went to harmonium because it is lot easier to use. I forgot to mention one major difference. The main three strings in sarangi are made of gut(animal intestine). The strings in violin are steel/iron or bronze. The guts also pose some difficulty.
  
  
• From: av (@ 132.216.68.109) on: Wed May 14 13:55:56 EDT 2003
  
  Raj:
  
  Are you a Sarangi player? :-) This thing about the animal gut being used for the strings is news for me!
  
  Personally, (and strictly IMO), I don't think the sound of the Veena (or of any stringed instrument played by plucking) really is THAT close to the human voice. Of course, there are "meendkaars", but I somehow feel the sarangi (and even the violin) is closer to the human voice because it allows a greater "continuity" (for lack of a better word) between the notes thereby simulating the sounds from the human vocal tract better.
  
  BTW, as you have mentioned - the early vocalists like Bade Ghulam Ali Khan and Aamir Khan were known to be excellent sarangi players. They became vocalists, unfortunately as far as the sarangi was concerned (and fortunately as they contributed so much to the vocal domain).
  
  Today, maybe there are many more sarangi players in Pakistan, I don't know.
  
  
• From: other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on: Wed May 14 14:04:08 EDT 2003
  
  Sarangi:
  "Its name is widely believed to mean "a hundred colours" indicating its adaptability to a wide range of musical styles, its flexible tunability, and its ability to produce a large pallette of tonal colour and emotional nuance"
  
  so it is probably Sau-rangi which became sa rangi...got this from a great article
  http://www.sarangi.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Sarangi.html
  again by a foreigner(www.sarangi.net/) :(
  
  
  can listen to some sarangi stuff at musicindiaonline
  http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/l/01010L
  http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/l/01010X
  http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/l/01010D
  
  
• From: Raj (@ 206.97.63.112) on: Wed May 14 14:50:31 EDT 2003
  
  av: Me, a sarangi player! I wish. I used to play bul bul tar(ang). Even that I forgot. I don't even have the instrument with me. I am one of those with mixed up priorities- engineering instead of music. I agree with you about string instruments replicating human voice. There is nothing to beat sarangi. Veena may be our bias,because it is a venerated instrument. I am interested in classical music -carnatic, hindusthani and western. That is all. I wish I had paid more attention to music when it would have been easy!!! Actually, my children are musicians. That explains my participation.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.18) on: Wed May 14 14:54:12 EDT 2003
  
  Correction Raj: Violin does not have frets unlike the guitar.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ 206.97.63.112) on: Wed May 14 15:01:26 EDT 2003
  
  Thanks Swamiji. It should have been ' bridge', not fret.
  
  
• From: av (@ 132.206.72.59) on: Wed May 14 15:31:09 EDT 2003
  
  I have always been curious to know the difference between the types of VeeNas. There are so many types - anyone knows the difference? I wish this thread were named "violin, viola, and veena". I admit I am causing a digression :-)
  
  
• From: Raj (@ 206.97.63.112) on: Wed May 14 16:46:07 EDT 2003
  
  av: The differences have to do with fret/no fret,plucking/sliding, fixed frets/movable frets and the number strings. I just want to make sure I associate the right combination with the right veena. We have a Tanjore veena at home. I will relate to that. Give me a couple of weekends for me to dig up all my books on music/musical instruments so that I can be concise and precise. So far, I have been posting from memory. This veena is a little more complex needing books.
  
  
• From: doubter (@ 208.142.210.1) on: Wed May 14 17:05:25 EDT 2003
  
  Songs with saarangi:
  
  1. poo pookkum maasam (varusham 16)
  2. poovE semboovE (so.thu.manasu)
  3. semmInE semmInE (sevvandhi)
  4. nilavE mugam kAttu (ejamaan)
  
  It is used in the first interlude of all these songs.
  
  cello (bass??) can be heard JUST before Shailaja starts 'kailai naadhar nadanam aadum' in 'naadha vinOdhangaL' (salangai oli). Violin and cello play the same note alternatively. No prices for guessing which is which :-)))
  
  
• From: other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on: Thu May 15 15:06:24 EDT 2003
  
  doubter thanxs for the inputs...
  i was thinking that the instrument used in
  poo pookkum maasam (varusham 16)
  nilavE mugam kAttu (ejamaan)
  was violin.Are u sure they are sarnagi??
  
  
  
  

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