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Why does ARR always begin songs with a word repeated twice?

Topic started by rjay (@ 204.220.167.123) on Fri May 8 04:27:19 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hi

10 years ago an American made a survey
of 3000 songs and analysed them to find out
what makes a hit. One of the startling findings was that 80% of the top hits began with a repeated word.

Having read this, I realised ARR should have read this somewhere too! More than 80% of his
songs (hits or not hits) begin this way.
Starting from
Chinna Chinna Asai to Haira Haira.
I am not going to list them. I would rather
make a list of ARR songs that DON'T repeat
a word on the first line!

Lot of other music directors have caught this
vagon too - Akila Akila, Nalam Nalamariya,
Dilrupa Dilrupa and so on. and there have
been lots of old hits too - thandana Thandana.
In fact this has been used as a poetic device
(Irattai Kilavi?)

What worries me is I suspect ARR is beginning to use this as a formula and this is making his
music very stale and predictable.

RJAY

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Responses:

• From: Ravi (@ envy.cs.umass.edu) on: Fri May 8 12:31:47 EDT 1998
  
  rjay: Beginning with repeated words is maing the music stale?
  
  
• From: Ravi (@ envy.cs.umass.edu) on: Fri May 8 12:54:46 EDT 1998
  
  rjay: BTW this statistic doesn't make sense unless we know what percentage of the songs beg. with repeated wrods were hits. Trying to list ARR's osngs without repeating words might be a slightly interesting trivia. Apart from that I do not see the purpose of this thread.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Fri May 8 14:05:04 EDT 1998
  
  Repeated words create an easy rhyme scheme and makes it easy for the writer. It also allows the singers to create an inherent chant. I believe Tamil Ilakkanam has a term for commonly used repetitions, isn't it Thema(VAA VAA)? Isn't Thema used in conjunction with Koovilangai?
  
  It has been a long time since Tamil Ilakkanam folks, can someone enlighten us? rjay,I would like to know about Irattai Kilavi too?
  
  
• From: pal (@ c45220.ece.umn.edu) on: Fri May 8 17:25:50 EDT 1998
  
  iRattai kiLavi doesnt give any meaning when pronounced alone! :-) please refer the first stanza of the 'kaNNOdu' by vairamuthu... in the film Jeans
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Fri May 8 19:05:06 EDT 1998
  
  So terms like, kisu kisu and vala vala fall under Irattai Kilavi?
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 204.220.169.94) on: Thu May 14 01:16:07 EDT 1998
  
  I got back my grammar.
  Repeating sounds(without meaningful words) Kisu-Kisu valavala salasala -
  are Irattaikilavi and repeating meaningful words
  is called Adukku thodar.
  
  Ravi, you are right, this does not need a separate thread. I should have posted this
  in the ARR-ROS thread, because the reason
  I brought this up was that I am
  beginning to feel this structure is limiting him
  severely.
  
  
  
• From: ARR (@ 208.28.2.2) on: Fri May 22 07:25:55 EDT 1998
  
  Because most of the songs he copies from begin with either two repeated english or arabic words?
  
  
• From: Ravi (@ envy.cs.umass.edu) on: Tue Aug 18 12:36:32 EDT 1998
  
  Junior: I am reviving this thread for you. IT would be helpful if you look at the archives, before starting a thread
  
  
• From: PURI (@ 202.54.33.218) on: Sun Aug 23 02:07:12 EDT 1998
  
  HI
  I THINK STARTING A SONG WITH A REPEATED VOICE IS A STYLE.
  SOME SONGS OF THAT KIND ARE:
  1 COLUMBUS COLUMBUS (JEANS)
  2 SONIA SONIA (RATCHAGAN)
  3 MAILU MAILU (V.I.P)
  4 CHINA CHINA (ROJA)
  5 HAIRE HAIRE (JEANS)
  6 NENJINILAE NENJINILAE (UYIRE)
  7 ANBAE ANBAE (JEANS)
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: junior (@ 194.170.2.7) on: Sun Aug 23 11:21:08 EDT 1998
  
  can i make a point?
  isn't the wordings something related to the guy who writes the lyrics and not the music director ofcourse if the md writes the songs then this is a different case, but i dont think this applies to the above man
  
  
• From: RAMU.R (@ 209.177.4.108) on: Sun Aug 23 16:06:05 EDT 1998
  
  Let's see how many songs of this variety ARR has given.
  
  1 CHINNA CHINNA
  2 ANJALI ANJALI (DUET)
  3 URVASHI URVASHI (KADHALAN)
  4 MUSTHAFA MUSTHAFA (KADHALDESAM)
  5 MARGAZHIPOOVE MARGAZHIPOOVE (MAYMAADHAM)
  6 THILLANA THILLANA (MUTHU)
  7 KUCHI KUCHI (BOMBAY)
  8 THEE THEE THITHIKUM THEE (THIRUDA THIRUDA)
  9 COLUMBUS COLUMBUS
  10 HAIRE HAIRE
  11 NENJINILE NENJINILE
  12 SONIA SONIA
  13 RUKMANI RUKMANI
  14 MAILU MAILU
  15 ANBAE ANBAE
  16 CHIKUBUKU CHIKUBUKU
  17 NARUMUGAYE NARUMUGAYE
  18 VENNILAVE VENNILAVE
  19 ACCHAM ACCHAM
  20 MALARGALAE MALARGALAE(LOVEBIRDS)
  21 ENNAVALE ENNAVALE
  22 ORUVAN ORUVAN (MUTHU)
  
  CAN ANYONE THINK OF ANYMORE?
  
  
• From: NaNbaN (@ barcache1.caribsurf.com) on: Sun Aug 23 17:42:53 EDT 1998
  
  Although it seems trivial, but its incredible that ARR that this many 'two word' songs. I guess
  something (??) should be behind this phenonmenon.
  Let me extened the list. Advanced thanks for RJAY for pointing out this occurence and *incredelble* for analysing songs in a diferent angle
  
  1. Vennilla Vennila Venilavee - IRUVAR
  2. Parota.. Parota.. seemavilay Parota - Vandi chollai sinarasu
  3. Samba Samba Samba - Pudhiya Mukam
  4. Come on Come on aye Kamatchi- Love Birds.
  5. Samba samba aye samba oh rye..Gha sa ri ri ga ma ba ga re Ammani Ammani - Love birds
  6. NO problem NO Problem - Love birds
  7. Muthu Muthu mallai muthanathey - Mr. Romeo
  8. Kathirika.. Kathirika Goondu.. - Duet
  9. Paarkathey Paarkathey - Gentleman
  10. Kannum Kannum Kollai Adithal - Thiruda Thiruda
  11. Kathu kathu enna kathu pudhu - Ullaavan
  12. Pennalla Pennalla Roja poo sivantha.. - Ullaavan
  13. Sugam Sugam meendu meendu - Vandi sollai sinarasu
  14. Chaiyya Chaiyya - Uyire
  15. Thayya Thayya - Uyire
  16. Hamma Hamma Hamma..Hamma - Bombay
  Although this song starts differently since hamma is used as catchy repeated word I included in the list.
  17. Rangeela Rangeela kathalicka sonnaalaa - Tamil Rangeela ( Hindi : Ayeerai Ayeerai)
  18. Kya karai ka Kya karai ka - Rangeela (I don't know the wordings properly)
  19. Thannuga.. Thannuga.. - Rangeela
  
  The list is 41 songs which is approximatley 1/4th of ARR songs. Does he uses this formula for creating fast catchy songs. If you notice the 41 songs, most the songs ARR Golden Hits.
  
  I am sure there will be more to this list.Guys to some research. I will post later.
  
  But my question is same as RJAY, Is ARR using some kind of formula for tuning songs. I guess he should be using formulas. Lot of his tune patterns are very similiar. But what wonders me is ,this guys(ARR) is incredibly effective on areas of songs.
  I can't agree this repeatation a mer coincedence also. Is this why top MD's say ARR is monotonous??.
  Man One thing is sure I AM CONFUSED.
  
  Puzzled,
  NaNbaN
  
  
• From: kiruba (@ slipper.watcom.on.ca) on: Sun Aug 23 18:52:44 EDT 1998
  
  Isn't using ragams for songs also using a formula ? Maybe some music-savvy people can tell us whether there is any standard ragam behind this.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Mon Aug 24 19:19:11 EDT 1998
  
  ARR has no variety, look at all the other songs he has with repeat words. Oh wait, I forgot these are all by IR:
  1)vaa vaa anbae
  2)vaa vaa anbae anbae
  3)sendhoorappoovae sendhoorappoovae
  4)vaa vaa vaa kannaa vaa
  5)vaa vaa manjal malarae
  6)orambo orambo
  7)mayilae mayilae
  8)muthumani muthumani
  9)kuyilae kuyilae
  10)darling darling darling
  11)chinnamma chinnamma
  12)meendum meendum
  13)manidhaa manidhaa
  14)vaa vaa vasandhamae
  15)vaa vaa vanjiyilamaanae
  16)olai olai kudisayila
  17)vazhividu vazhividu vazhividu
  18)radha radha nee engae
  19)janani janani
  20)poo poo poo pooppooththa solai
  21)chinna chinna vannakuyil
  22)kaviriyae kaviriyae
  23)dhoori dhoori manadhil oru dhoori
  24)dhoori dhoori dhummakka dhoori
  25)mannavanae mannavanae
  26)pooththu pooththu kulunguthadi
  27)kaadhali kaadhali kangalaal ennai
  28)thalukki thalukki udal
  29)nam thana nam thana thaalam
  30)kuyilae kuyilae konjum thamizhae
  31)chingidi chingidi
  32)kanmani kanmani
  33)koo koo endru
  34)kuyilae kuyilae undhan geethangal
  
  I'm sure there's more by IR but I think the point has been made.
  
  
• From: NaNbaN (@ barcache1.caribsurf.com) on: Mon Aug 24 20:38:18 EDT 1998
  
  Agreed Udhaya with your point. I guess I was wrong
  
  Thanx for pointing out my mistake
  
  NaNbaN
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ socks13d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Mon Aug 24 21:04:54 EDT 1998
  
  Udhaya:
  With due respect to your caustic humour ;-)...
  I have always held the belief that ARR's scores are simplistic and their USP is their catchiness. In an earlier thread I compared "Chinna Chinna Aasai..." with "Baa, Baa Black Sheep..." ! Another example would be "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" ! See a pattern here ? ;-))
  
  I think it lies in the way the lyricist interprets the tune. If it reminds him/her of a nursery ryhme...Ooops !...I mean if it sounds like a jingle, I guess the natural reaction would be to repeat the first few words.
  
  When I first came across this topic, I wondered how the MD could be blamed for the lyrics ! Looks like I have the answer now !
  
  Another point that I would like to raise is that if you take a cursory look at the first words which are repeated, you will find a subtle difference between ARR's songs and IR's songs. The repeated words in most of IR's songs are expressive whereas in the majority of ARR's songs they are objective - they carry little or no expression. And of course, if we start counting percentages like NaNbaN did ARR would have a significantly larger percentage of songs which start with repeated words.
  
  I'm sorry guys, the Rahman Basher in me simply refuses to die :-)
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Tue Aug 25 13:58:19 EDT 1998
  
  Srinath, I missed you man where you been? I'm caustic?!!! I guess it takes one (If if reminds him/her of a nursery rhyme) to know one.
  
  I'm sorry guys, the Rahman Basher in me simply refuses to die :-)
  Now, why would we want that basher to die, when so much fun could be had with him? Now that Nithin, Madhan, and k.r.ravi (I'm naming you guys because we all mixed it up in heated but fun debates before)seem to be either on hiatus or on shorter shifts, I guess you will have to play the honorary ARR needler.
  
  Now, coming to the ring, round three is it? Unless traditional sandhams (with enough ups and downs in the beginning of the song) are used, the lyricist is not given much to work with, this much is agreed. But IR is the first one to break the mold of TFM where the song begins with an inflexible sandham. Take note here because I'm not saying this is wrong, it was rather a refreshing departure from the song's title announcing itself in the start.
  
  ARR blew this door open even wider by making tunes whose sandhams wouldn't climb or fall for an entire minute into the song (Oh vennilaa, Uyirum neeyae,etc). Does all this mean that he creates nursery rhymes? Hell no! ARR is breaking with the set rules that have been governing TFM for half a century. If ARR is so formulaic, how come the many fools who ape him haven't succeeded? This is not architecture folks to be deconstructed to its base element. You can't recreate an ARR by taking him apart brick by brick and putting him all together in the formula you think you have figured out.
  
  Only a tirelessly creative mind would have come up with an out of this world accordion loop in "Ennuiyirae Ennuyirae". That is the most original TFM tune all year. Should the fact that Ennuyirae is repeated in the beginning and in the middle matter? If you think so then you should go after prayers and devotionals because they repeat the same words: Siva Siva, Krishna Krishna, Rama Rama.
  
  
  
• From: NaNbaN (@ barcache1.caribsurf.com) on: Tue Aug 25 15:54:04 EDT 1998
  
  Udhaya Good posting man! Keep it up!
  
  NaNbaN
  
  

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