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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Mon Apr 10 21:39:29 EDT 2000
  
  Just to put things in perspective, Srikanth, you may want to mention that whatever you state above is for POP recordings. Classical recordings eschew all these things. For eg, Kavi Alexanders' recordings are made with just two (Blumlein) microphones and have no digital effects. He made the news recently for recording the whole Philadelphia Orchestra itself with his usual blumlein arrangement.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ wdslppp129.sttl.uswest.net) on: Mon Apr 10 21:52:13 EDT 2000
  
  tfm is something like pop music,
  the above also applies to bgm tracks in english films, sound engineer is the key, he plays a big role, he can change the pallavi to saranam or vise versa. In India this trend is yet to come.
  
  Kiru,
  Recording live wc scores is an art by itself, during my music school days i have studied many chamber scores are record in old churchs to get the natural reverb etc likewise our carantic music is recorded with just 3 mics.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Mon Apr 10 22:37:01 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth,
  I agree most TFM music is POP.
  But many of IR's songs have a classical arrangement. I dont know how all these new techniques can fit in. I have a CD 'Hits of Yesudas' by IR. I am very happy with the recording. I would never want any digital effects in them. But many recent songs of his really need this kind of sound engineering but lack it.
  
  Yes, churches are the most sought after place for recording, especially chamber music. Many churches have been converted to recording studios. You can do other kinds of recordings too. Its the 'space' people are after more than the reverb, which can also be very pleasing.
  
  You can hear the electronic drone I am talking about in 'yArO yArOdi' in alaipayuthe. I have noticed many ARRs techniques that can be classified as 'innovative use of sound' - 1) sounds of LP noise in 'iruvar' to give the 'period' effect. 2) using crash cymbals for rain effect (chAral) in then mErku paruvakkAttru.
  
  I dont think ARR uses just the sampled sounds.He kind of adds some effects to them. For eg. the using LFO with tabla (as mentioned by Shashi). All this along with his mixing he creates a signature sound that no MD in India has been able to replicate. Only album that comes close is 'poovellAm kEttuppAr' by Yuvan Shankar RAja.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ wdslppp129.sttl.uswest.net) on: Mon Apr 10 23:00:04 EDT 2000
  
  kiru,
  "Proper (rather unquie) tonality selection came into picture more prominantly when arr came into the scene, -- my earlier posting"
  
  ARR uses just the sampled sounds
  --- i told the same thing. :))
  
  also kiru, you are in misnorm that digital means efx, efx is part of digital tech,
  i am talking about sound clarity, sound is any day more clear in if recording using a digital recordor,
  
  like instruments like Korg trinity or many micorphones have an digital output these days, this can be connected to a digital mixer or directly connected digitally to a workstation like roland vs series, there is not sound loss.,
  without efx it self you will hear lot of difference.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Tue Apr 11 12:21:10 EDT 2000
  
  arul,
  
  Thanks for the pointers to the music. I will
  listen to it tonight. And thanks for the pointer
  to the book. It is very nice to read expert views
  from Srikanth, Kiru and you.
  
  more later
  rjay
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Tue Apr 11 12:22:17 EDT 2000
  
  arul,
  
  Thanks for the pointers to the music. I will
  listen to it tonight. And thanks for the pointer
  to the book. It is very nice to read expert views
  from Srikanth, Kiru and you.
  
  more later
  rjay
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Tue Apr 11 12:23:44 EDT 2000
  
  MS, Chandy, Vijay,
  
  Thanks for taking time to read and
  for the nice words,
  
  rjay
  
  
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Tue Apr 11 13:13:28 EDT 2000
  
  Your discussions made me think about
  mixing during various periods.
  
  In a classical symphonic setting,
  where a live orchestra plays, the only
  way to vary the texture dramatically is to
  bring in different instruments at different
  point of time. The only way to balance
  volumes and to mix relative volums would be
  to have multiple instruments and have them
  play together or alone! Otherwise we dont need
  5 horns, 4 violins and so on. And the only way
  to fill the spectrum would be to have a violin,
  viola, cello and contrabass, which are
  all violins of different size and hence
  frequency range. Similarly brass and woodwinds.
  
  A novice composer would write something and
  it would sound terrible mix (I am not talking
  about the quality of music, but the quality of
  the sound), because he used two instrument which
  occupy the same spectrum simultaneouslya and
  they would muffle each other. Or he would choose
  a pitch range for an instrument, without knowing
  that it sounds horrible in that range. For example, asking a piccolo to play low notes.
  This is why the term composer and arranger
  become important, because while writing good
  catchy and effective musical ideas itself
  is great skill, putting them together in a
  rich orchestra is a much more difficult art.
  
  However, when a composer like Beethoven or anyone in
  his class writes for the instruments many many
  years and listens, he learns which instruments
  go together well and to Srikanth's point,
  how instruments spread out and how they fill
  the spectrum, without hindering each other or
  muffling the mix altogether. At this point,
  the composer does not even need to play and see,
  he can use his past experience and thumb rules
  (which might get translated into intuition -
  or the subconscious habit, to be less mystical)
  I think Ilayaraja has developed such an ear for orchestral sounds, so attracted by western
  classical music.
  
  If the score is well written and arrangers and
  performers understand the composers intentions
  and score's functions completely, then in a
  big cathedral you can get the orchestra to play
  it and just capture the entire thing without
  any eletronic readjustments. It might still sound
  excellent. Kavi Alexander (I have not heard
  him or heard of him) might be a 'back-to-nature' attempt. After
  all, if the listener can sit in the cathedral and
  get ecstasy listening to the live orchestra
  two hi quality mics can be placed where his ears are, should capture the sounds
  as good as that!
  
  However, the potential offered by digital
  recording and mixing is amazing. Think of it
  this way:
  
  When MSV composed, he sings out or calls out
  the musical ideas to each and every musician,
  then gets them to play together in small groups
  first and then later in larger groups. How
  would he mix well? Just by telling the musicians
  to play little more loudly or softly and they
  would remember these settings. And without multiple rehearsals and keeping the same
  musicians over and over, mixing would be a
  horribly difficult job. Think of that and
  'Engae nimmadhi' seems an amazing achievement!
  
  In the time of Raja, he effectively used the
  technology - of writing down score parts and
  getting people to arrange. The moment you write
  down, a lot is lost. First melody is broken into
  discrete notes. But I think he used the score only
  to give a rough idea and get the performers
  to learn the basic idea. And then he would have
  auditioned each musician (at least the
  lead melodies and distinct areas like bass etc)
  and corrected him like wise by correcting the
  performance and giving cues in volume dynamics,
  pitch dynamics, and countless instrument specific
  nuances. (I remember Arunmozhi saying,
  "Other music directors would give just the
  note sequence for a flute solo, but Raja would
  also tell me how the vary the volume levels while playing" - this is well understood factor in
  the west). Then an 8-track recording and a
  console mixing would have definitely helped.
  
  Digital recording provides a wider palette
  ranging from instrument sounds, to their
  dynamics to mixing. Rahman today has
  at his disposal a wide variety of techniques,
  including all the ones available to his
  musical ancestors.
  
  Indian classical music took a radically differnt
  view. Why need multiple instruments to play
  simultaneouly? Instead have the singer
  go deeper into his ideas and bring out the
  emotion. At any point, let one instrument
  play its soul out. If mridhangam player has
  mastered his instrument, we will give him
  a separate section for improvisation. If there
  is an additional ghatam vidwan, let them play
  a duel during the avardhanam. The whole
  emphasis is on the feel of the melody and
  the complex elaborations of the rhythms.
  
  Many composers use this minimalist viewpoint.
  We have seen T.Rajendar produce great hits
  by focusing on the melody and the lyrical impact.
  We have seen MSV, Raja, Rahman produce
  outstanding melodic hits which almost
  seem unembellished, and still soul-stirrers -
  like Kannae kalaimaane, porale ponnuththayee.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Tue Apr 11 13:21:34 EDT 2000
  
  A good analogy would be to see music as
  painting.
  
  There are realistic painting, modern art,
  cartoons, water color, oil painting, pen and
  ink, pencil forms and photography is a form of
  painting.
  
  Similarly we can see, orchestral music,
  melody-oriented-music, synth, ambience etc
  
  I many times think the problem of composition
  is the same problem faced by a painter or
  for that matter a story teller - how to
  put different things and people and ideas
  together and make it feel like a seemless
  whole that moves smoothly from one point to
  another and yet create dramatic emotions -
  during its journey.
  
  

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