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Dr.SPB , DR.KJY, M.Rafi & Kishore Kumar, who is the greatest out of these?

Topic started by Udit naryan, harihara & Kumar sanu (@ 195.92.67.65) on Fri Jan 10 12:56:43 EST 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I know it is a touch one, it is very close between Rafi & SPB, my opinion is as follows

1) SPB
2) Rafi
3) KJY
4) KK

how about yours??

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Fri Jan 17 04:54:32 EST 2003
  
  Ali;
  
  >>whereas SPB is not that much in demand as of now.<<
  
  it's obvious you are not listening to any teleugu songs nowadays!
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Fri Jan 17 04:57:22 EST 2003
  
  Ali;
  
  Shammi kapoor, big deal, he is just an actor, let me ask, some thing, can rafi/kk match Dr.Sivaji ganeshan (Only TMS can), can Rafi/KK match Super*rajni (Only SPB can), just because rafi is the only match for Shammi, (BIG DEAL), does not make him the greatest, does it?
  
  pls don't attack any hubbers personaly, I have seen you do that in many posts, it's not nice, we are just debating, not fighting :-)
  
  
• From: Karan/London (@ 213.2.111.98) on: Fri Jan 17 06:07:58 EST 2003
  
  Raghu , where can you get telegu songs in London?
  Tamil is easy to find..but not telegu
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Fri Jan 17 06:49:39 EST 2003
  
  Karan;
  
  U can listen to SPB's telugu songs on line at
  www.raaga.com/telegu, but not sure about any telugu video/audio shops in london, if I find out, I will let u know!
  
  
• From: Sethu (@ 219.93.211.50) on: Fri Jan 17 07:07:22 EST 2003
  
  WHAAAAAT ??
  Dr.SPB , DR.KJY, M.Rafi & Kishore Kumar, who is the greatest out of these????
  I think IR is best singer then all these !!
  
  
• From: Sethu (@ 219.93.211.50) on: Fri Jan 17 07:10:00 EST 2003
  
  I think IR shud be given best singer for 2002 award for the song AMMA SONNA .....from SOLLA MARANTHA KATHAI ....
  
  
• From: Prabhu (@ 203.124.139.195) on: Fri Jan 17 07:34:13 EST 2003
  
  Just listen to Asha's Shenbagame(2) or Lata's Valaiosai(both 1987), quite smoothly done, coz these artists show commitment. Still a closer look at Shenbagame does reveal Asha's Marati accent, especially when you come to those Tamil words which have 3 or more syllables(Isnt it easy to pick out a Northie, Bong, Marati or Mallu from the way they talk English? The only Maratha I heard who's English doesnt show him up is Gavaskar!!)
  Keep these 2 in the backdrop and Udit is pathetically found wanting! Don't know if Ratchagan(1995) was Udit's first tamil foray, but still after 7 years, hearing his current efforts somehow I cant help relating them to a one-night-stand, hmmmm
  
  
• From: Prabhu (@ 203.124.139.195) on: Fri Jan 17 07:43:48 EST 2003
  
  Talking of tfm, was watching Sapthaswarangal in Mar 2001, when TMS turned up as the judge and sang Neerodum Vaigayile(Paar Magale Paar?), over 20 years after he'd taken a bow. The liveliness was still there to see. At the end, TMS sang a somewhat peppy number when the group started dancing(Not that AV Ramanan needs an invitation for that!)...TMS added to the mood with some vociferous and lusty whistles!
  
  It is a pity that we didnt hear much of this great singer in the 80s, SPB taking over. True, TMS and Malaysia Vasu(initial voice of Rajini), had that nasal tinge. But there was several enjoyable fast numbers which were more fun with TMS/MV than SPB. Sachin may hit sixes but its more fun to watch a natural six-hitter like Akram/Cairns!
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Fri Jan 17 09:59:00 EST 2003
  
  Prabhu;
  
  >>TMS and Malaysia Vasu(initial voice of Rajini), had that nasal tinge<<
  
  Thank you, at least u get the point, I was trying to make :-)
  
  
• From: Ali (@ 24.102.31.216) on: Fri Jan 17 11:51:55 EST 2003
  
  >>>pls don't attack any hubbers personaly, I have seen you do that in many posts, it's not nice, we are just debating, not fighting
  
  Raghu, I have never attacked anyone in any post an I intend not to anytime. People such as avr are calling Sam an Idiot and I have never called anyone names. I have seen you sometimes go extreme and respond to my posts and others in a sarcastic and rude way.....and you're saying I do that ??. If you have read my previous posts, I have only intended to respond to people's posts and have never attacked anyone personally. Ofcourse this is just a debate and not a fight and it should continue in this matter ok yaar !!.
  
  Regards,
  
  
• From: Anwar (@ 195.92.67.71) on: Sat Jan 18 06:49:23 EST 2003
  
  Dear Ali;
  
  SPB I feel is the best amongs these four legends, One must think that Rafi had classical training as well ghazalls, KJY is an awsome Carntic singer, bu SPB had nor formal training like KK, but KK's voice is not that good. SPB has excellent bass, compared to other singers, of course he sings in tender voice as well, that's call voice modulation.
  
  hence SPB is the greatest amongst all singer in India, I mean in Play back singing!, there is not an actor in south that SPB ji has not sung for!
  
  do you agree
  
  
• From: Sam (@ 208.134.115.240) on: Sat Jan 18 15:52:18 EST 2003
  
  Mr.Anwar:
  methinks u r wrong. Rafi is everest. SPB is a heap of sand. disappers if strong wind blows okay. KJY is not a good carnatic singer ask any carnatic singer he will say dat. just cinema popularity datzall.
  Mr.Ali:
  u r very knowledgeable analytical and articulate. pls continue with the good job. thank u.
  
  
• From: sugathan (@ 202.141.24.2) on: Sun Jan 19 04:04:42 EST 2003
  
  
  There was nobody so brilliant and talented as PJC in tamil music.Rafi,kjy spb etc are below him.HE IS THE KING OF MUSIC.uNDERSTAND!
  
  
• From: Youth (@ 210.186.61.43) on: Sun Jan 19 05:02:31 EST 2003
  
  Sam, LOL.
  I believe you will find the right kind of music in donkeys' braying. Will fit your taste to a nine.
  
  
• From: Are Yaar (@ 203.115.31.67) on: Mon Jan 20 03:59:46 EST 2003
  
  >>>Since this is becoming a big digression, we can take this offline if you wish.
  
  Why Why...Just post all stuffs here...This is onbe rare thread in this foirum which is good.
  
  Ali:
  Man write in short paras and postings man..YOu put in huge post and I could not skip them because they are quite interesting...but I don't agree with you on many aspect...Repeatedly you are looking in only one way.
  
  Why do you have to look every thing with the prism of Rafi..? And this is the mistake most of them do.? They try to compare the next generation with the parametres set by privious generations..why not the other way round? Even in ** vs *** case it is like that (I don't want to mention those letters here..)
  
  Can you slightly try to look the other way round..where you think Rafi would have made a difference in SPB's songs.
  
  Also, you have repeatedly mentioned about SK's playback by Rafi and SPB's rendition of the same in a concert. Well that was a live in and you know you can't have a retake and you won't have that recording studio effect. Also, SPB would have thought that he should do a controlled version than to go beserk on that song..well if you truely ask me...that song was ment to be like that...
  
  But SPB's was just a controlled version..a diff one.
  
  I recently saw a film called Kaadhal Sugamaanadhu...
  There is a SPB solo in which he goes to low pitch and high pitch in the same song. KIndly listen to that..music is just a hell in that movie but what I wanted to say is the voice control that you wanted to talk.
  
  I am not amusic pundit like you or others..but I think I have good ears.
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Mon Jan 20 05:06:20 EST 2003
  
  Youth;
  
  Good one, we ignore sam, so don't waste your time on it :)
  
  
  Are yarr;
  
  >>.? They try to compare the next generation with the parametres set by privious generations>Well that was a live in and you know you can't have a retake and you won't have that recording studio effect.<<
  
  that's true, SPB is the only play back singer, who excels in stage shows, the rest are just hopeless.hey, I am not talking about 3 hours of hard core carnatic stuff that KJY/BMK performs :)
  
  Whose film is Kadhal sugamanthu?, I mean who is *ing it, could you please tell me whether this song is available on line or not?
  
  many thanks
  
  
• From: pan (@ 203.199.213.3) on: Mon Jan 20 05:25:26 EST 2003
  
  
  PJ is a living legend
  
  
• From: Are Yaar (@ 203.115.31.67) on: Tue Jan 21 02:27:26 EST 2003
  
  Kaadhal Sugamaanadhu is probably a dubbed version of a telegu film staring Tarun, Sneha and Vijaykumar manjula's daughter...
  
  Music is by Love today Siva..That's all I know...songs were just okay...but that song registered in my mind for its variations.
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Tue Jan 21 04:51:03 EST 2003
  
  Are yaar;
  
  If u happen to know where these songs are available on line, please let me know.
  
  thanks
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Wed Jan 22 04:45:54 EST 2003
  
  oh hello, any body there ??
  
  
• From: Devil's Advocate (@ 195.92.67.70) on: Sun Jan 26 08:22:40 EST 2003
  
  it is very difficult compare to legends, SPB/Rafi
  we all have different voices, some has a deep voice, like SPB, some has a soft voice like Rafi.
  
  Rafi was indeed unmatched at high octaves, due to the fact he had high pitched voice, another example of this nature is TMS!
  
  on the other hand SPB has very low pitch, his lower pitched songs are unmatched, and unparallel, now this is due to the nature of SPB's voice, deep voice, hence if SPB sings in high pitch it may sound odd to some, as SPB will be going out of his voice range to sing in High octaves, same thing applies to Rafi singing in low octaves, in some cases, u might experience just air comig out of his throat, rather than sound.
  
  
• From: Ali (@ 24.157.237.42) on: Sat Feb 1 00:07:11 EST 2003
  
  The reason why we compare the singers of the generation following the generation of Rafi is because Rafi set such a high standard of singing that others have tried to emulate but have not done so. Let me state an example, Viv Richards came and conquered the world of cricket with his batting skills. He had a wide range of talent and set new standards of batting when he reached the pinnacle of success, standards that only rare talents can achieve. Now if we were to compare Lara to Richards, we can say that Lara has an abundance of talent and certainly on his day is the most feared batsman in the world. He holds the single highest score in test match and county cricket and has developed a unique style of his own to be termed a great. Although Lara may be great in his own way, he still has a ways to go before he can be put on a pedestal with Richards. Sure, one can compare him to Richards in terms of ability and skill, but the standards Richards set such as for ex. temperament on alien sub-continent conditions, batting on bouncy pitches against venom pace, ability to manhandle a team on his own is yet to be matched. Now if we reverse the situation and ask ourselves could Richards have done what Lara has accomplished ?. Well with the wide range and skill that Richards had available at his disposal, there is no reason to believe that he could not have sat in Lara's shoes. Same applies to Rafi vis a vis SPB. With the wide range Rafi had, there is no reason to doubt that he could not have rendered the songs SPB sung. Ofcourse the two sung in different languages but I mentioned earlier in one of my posts if Rafi had time to enter the SI industry he would have done well. Class is permanent and can get adapted to different environments real easy as can class batsmen to different conditions.
  Are Yaar, tell me one thing, are you saying (as you mentioned earlier)that ** could not have done what *** is doing now. ** has set a standard for music and he is a benchmark for the next generation of MD's in tamil cinema.
  
  When talking about voice, SPB as is known to many, has a voice range of low-mid base. When he enters the territories out of his range i.e. high-pitch, he tends to sound odd and does not have the same ‘sur’ in his voice as he does when he is confined to his range. Let me make a point that those unaware of the range Rafi had are simply missing out on one of a kind. Firstly, the title of 'Saatwan Sur' (the seven notes) he has been given is not just there for show. Those who feel that Rafi could not do justice to low pitch songs should go and research on this topic. Surprise, Surprise, you will be amazed. Simply saying that sometimes you will experience just air coming out is a statement made out of ignorance and bias. Sure SPB may not sound as good in high pitches as he does in low, but Rafi sounded as good as low as he did when he sung high.
  
  You can tell by the range of the compositions created for SPB that music directors knew that SPB was excellent in low-mid pitched songs and never tried to make him sing higher-pitched songs unless it was absolutely necessary or the composition demaded so. Their compositions were limited to being created in that particular voice range. Sure SPB did full justice to the songs that were given to him, but they were created keeping his range in mind. Mukesh is another good example. When Kalyanji Anandji composed all those pathos based songs for him, they kept his range in mind and created compositions to suit his ability. Mukesh so wonderfully put emotions into those songs though he was limited in range. When K-A composed for Rafi it was a different story all together. They could now traverse different scales than the usual ones always present, and be more creative in their compositional frame because they had a singer who could do justice to them. Now tell me, which music director would always like to create compositions within the same scale ?. I'm sure they would love to challenge themselves and in the process challenge the singer as well. I mean the more creative you are, the more meledious your compositions can be. Just yesterday i was listening to the pathos-filled 'Mohabbat ke suhane din' from Maryada (1971) composed by K-A and the way Rafi has traversed highs and lows just cannot be compared. Not only was he able to go so high, he glided over the song in the same process and shifted notes all at one time. Compare that with for ex. SPB's ‘Nilalai pola thodarum’ or a ‘Man kanda sorgangal’ and also to Kishore’s ‘Mera jeevan kora kagaz’ or ‘Mere naina sawan bhadon’ and you can easily spot the differences. K-A and others surely must have enjoyed composing for Rafi because they knew that whatever they created, on whatever scale, Rafi could sing it. This is why Rafi is a benchmark for all singers when it comes to comparing others with him.
  
  Also, artists galore have time and time again mentioned this facet about his singing. You can then answer yourslef as to why NTR brought Rafi all the way from Bombay just to sing a song with Janaki in the tune of 'Aaja tujhko pukare mere geet' composed by K-A and originally sung by Rafi/Lata because he and his team beleived only Rafi could do justice to that pitch required. Sure there was TMS, SPB, Ghantasala and PBS around but the question is why did he choose Rafi ?.
  
  All singers such as SPB, Mukesh, KJY, TMs, etc have mastered their approach to singing within their range and have done extremely well in many compositions given to them. It is one thing to switch notes effectively inside your range like the above mentioned have done, and it is a different approach when you have to switch notes outside your territory and then back to your normal range. This is what sets Rafi apart from others. Before Rafi came, there was a time when compositions though creative were limited to a certain scope. For ex. If Naushad wanted to create a sad melody for Talat Mahmood, or if MSV wanted to create a melody for TMS, he had to keep his range in mind. Talat could surely sing in low pitches which was easy for him and his velvety voice could bring out emotions very nicely. But when Rafi came on to the scene, Naushad created ‘Baiju Bawra’ for him knowing that Rafi could bring out pathos on a different level than his contemporaries.
  
  When one is talking about pitch in terms of singing, it is good to discuss Western Classical Music. Music at that time was created at a standardized pitch of about A=425Hz. For ex. When you play a violin at a pitch of A=440Hz and play another violin at A=425Hz it is very difficult to retain the A=425Hz sound because the violin will go back in one way or the other to its standardized sound. When music from the 17th or 18th century is performed on stage, the vocal parts are usually very difficult to perform because at that time, compositions were created with steep scales. Both men and women sound stressed when they have to sing in high pitches and some are afraid that they will strain their voice when doing so. Singing low can be adapted variably to different combinations of notes and does not put as much pressure on your voice as do high notes.
  
  It is said that today that orchestra players play on a relatively higher pitch to achieve a more brilliant sound. If the music director would like to create a unique emotional song with his violin orchestra, he needs a singer who can follow the orchestra and sing at that level. Lata used to complain that Shankar Jaikishan always used to make her sing at a high pitch but SJ were of the opinion that if she could do it, why not ?. Same aplies to Rafi in this context. Most of the high-pitched songs Rafi has sung were made for the male baritone who could traverse those scales and when these same songs were sung by Lata, ex. ‘O mere shahekuban’, ‘Dil jo na keh saka’ and ‘Hum intezar karenge’ sung by both Rafi & Asha, one can easily spot the differences in comfort and glide that Rafi had over Lata or Asha. These songs could not be sung with the same effect by females, though they have a thinner voice, than was sung by Rafi. Rafi not only could sing in high-scales but his deep-throat effect accompanied this. Most singers when singing high, their voices get strained and they sound thin, in the case of Rafi, his voice became better and had depth to it. One good example is the bhajan ‘Suk ke sab saathi’ from Gopi. I request all of you to go and listen to that song. There are so many difficult transitions in this song that there is no singer who could have sung this. Sure SPB has excellent bass but how many times can composers create a challenging melody using just bass alone ?.
  
  Rafi neither had a heavy bass, or a nasal voice, he had a good voice. This is why Yesudas said "god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu..but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu". Rafi could sing "as intricately as a lady without sounding thin", "cover any mood", "versatility odey perfect example Rafi". KJY, the golden emblem of classical music in India must know a lot about transitions in vocal music since he has spent his whole life mastering vocal classical music and by saying this about Rafi you can imagine what Rafi had.
  
  Music directors and instrument players love to be challenged. When I play my harmonium at home I try and play a combination of notes that challenge me. I have played many a singers songs on the harmonium and have seen what types of notes they have had to sing. From my experience most singers have sung within the same boundaries (in terms of notes). Rafi’s compositions according to my harmonium are totally out of the normal boundary. I am not only saying this out of the blue, I am saying this because I have played his songs on the harmonium. The harmonium is a very good and accurate way to determine what notes are used in vocal music because it is from the harmonium that the basic tune is created for the song and the singer.
  
  
  
• From: Rahul (@ 195.92.67.68) on: Sun Feb 2 08:05:50 EST 2003
  
  Dear Ali;
  
  >>You can tell by the range of the compositions created for SPB that music directors knew that SPB was excellent in low-mid pitched songs>never tried to make him sing higher-pitched songs unless it was absolutely necessary or the composition demaded so. <<
  
  Not at all,I think you have not heard any SPB songs in High octaves, please listen to some songs like
  
  1) Naanum Unthan uravai - from Mythili ennai kathali
  2) Sri thambura -Vijayaprthaban (telugu)
  3) Mun paniya - Nandha
  4) Kannai kasakum - Red
  
  and so on, then comment upon these
  
  take care
  
  

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