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The problem with Raja's BGM

Topic started by Arvind Kumar (@ ip32.santa-clara6.ca.pub-ip.psi.net) on Sun Jul 5 23:54:12 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I strongly feel that Raja's BGM is overrated. He does give excellent BGM, but the BGM is bit too much. In fact BGM should be used sparingly to get the best effect. BGM in hollywood films is used
seldomly and the effect is really good.

To give some examples of overuse of BGM by Raja:-

(a) Nayagan - the bell and flute music was repeated ad nauseum.
(b) Mouna Ragam - ditto with Shahnai music.
(c) Agni Nakshatram - the thunder like music whenever Prabhu and kartik
cross each other.

I can go on with many more examples, where the overuse of BGM kills the joy.
A question: Under whose jurisdiction does BGM lies. Is it Director's or Raja's fault to
overuse BGM.

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Responses:

• From: Arvind Kumar (@ ip32.santa-clara6.ca.pub-ip.psi.net) on: Sun Jul 5 23:57:17 EDT 1998
  
  I also feel that Rahman uses BGM lesser. His style is very much like that of Hollywood films
  but his choice of BGM is bad most of the time.
  
  
• From: nesan (@ sdn-ts-001txfworp11.dialsprint.net) on: Mon Jul 6 00:24:56 EDT 1998
  
  That is becasuse he (ARR) copies Hollywood films.
  Nesan
  
  
• From: Rajesh (@ pdxss902.jf.intel.com) on: Mon Jul 6 00:38:41 EDT 1998
  
  Arvind,
  
  Perhaps ur perception of BGM is different. I feel
  Rajas BGM or BGM in general should complement the
  scene tereby bringing out the best from the scene.
  There are movies which I have watched repeatedly just for BGM alone. I wouldn't admire any movie without BGM.
  
  
• From: Arvind Kumar (@ ip252.santa-clara11.ca.pub-ip.psi.net) on: Mon Jul 6 01:03:10 EDT 1998
  
  Rajesh,
  
  No, my perception is same. When BGM is overdone
  (as in most of the Raja's films) it kills the scene. BGM is to complement, not overwhelm the scene.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 161.225.48.3) on: Mon Jul 6 10:23:15 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Guys,
  
  If you say hollywood does not have much BG music I am sorry you have not heard!....
  Jaws, Star wArs, Mission Impossible, X-Files, Juraric Park..etc..etc.. take any famous English movie, they have a theme music and Cds come out only with BGM scores.
  
  Have you guys wathced the above list tamil movies without the BGM, They are nothing witout those scores.,
  
  Raja has a style of BG music,
  Mouna ragam, NAyagan etc, had a very thick and emotional story line, I am sure except bombay - AR has not done any heavy subject movie., he fails badly in Karuthama.
  The fact is Ar does not know to rerecord, there is nothing like holly wood style etc, Raja's re-recording is never overrated., He is best for rerecording in TFM.
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Arvind Kumar (@ 38.29.70.115) on: Mon Jul 6 11:01:49 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth,
  
  Hollywood movies do have theme music, but it never
  over played as in tamil movies. I repeat, I don't know whose fault is this, director's or Raja's.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 161.225.48.3) on: Mon Jul 6 11:16:51 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Arvind,
  Hollywood movies are only for 2hours.
  Our movies are for 3+ hours, so it is an ill-u-tion that HW movies are not overplaying the theme music.
  The Film director and the MD is responsible for BGM selection, the MDs will give the director atleast 3 to 4 choices, but mostly the placement is fixed by the director and sometimes music director also chips in his idea.
  BTW:
  The BGMS impact is so much that we are discussing about it now. Thats what is Raja's BGM..
  Frankly!, Raja's BGM scores are lessons for other MDS.
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ isdbsd1-inet.ci.mil.wi.us) on: Mon Jul 6 12:03:31 EDT 1998
  
  Arvind,
  
  When it comes to BGM in films, I guess "overwhelming" is a relative term. BGM in films are used to give emotional cues (e.g. shehnai=sad situation) and commercial films everywhere (Hollywood and India) could be considered overwhelming by your definition. It's only the artier fare in Hollywood that do not use a lot of BGM.
  
  Unless BGM intrudes on the listenability of the dialogues, I don't think I'd call it Overwhelming. Take for instance, Moondram Pirai. There's a two-minute BGM segment (no dialogues) where Kamal sends Sridevi off to change into a saree and imagines how she'd be (until reality kicks in). This is a stunning piece and I do not know if the scene would have had any impact at all without this BGM.
  
  Your examples: I don't think that the Nayakan BGM was the same music ad nauseam. The pieces were "variations" of what could be called "Velu Nayakar's Theme" (had it been a Hollywood soundtrack). There are happy versions, sad versions... but each time, they reinforce the situation the character finds himself in. I doubt the film would have had as much an impact had IR scored different pieces for each moment.
  
  I'm sure that not every IR BGM score is a masterpiece, but he is the only MD I know who infuses some kind of thematic continuity in his scores. Otherwise, most MDs go the "fight-ukku drums, sogathukku shahnai" route, or simply play pieces of a song to indicate mood.
  
  
• From: Madhan,Goa (@ 202.41.117.44) on: Mon Jul 6 13:11:25 EDT 1998
  
  Dear Arvind,
  
  Have you seen Mani Ratnam's "Idhayathhai Thirudaadhey" - Geetanjali in Telugu ?
  
  The movie has the least od dialogues and the heavy emotional core of the movie is carried on only by IR's BGM -
  
  Nagarjuna has one of the most expressionless faces in the film industry; most of the scenes in that movie are like picture post card abstract Victorian paintings, with shades of modern art -
  IR's BGm simply gives life and incredible beauty to each and every scene !!
  
  But for IR's BGM, that movie would have been a miserable two hour MUMBO JUMBO
  
  Like this I can quote at least 35 - 40 movies, in which IR is the HERO of the movie in every way !!
  
  BGM in Indian movies got attention only after IR's entry - even in Hollywood, apart from stalwarts like JErry Goldsmith,John Williams, Howard Shore, James Horner, there are not many composers who can produce haunting BGMs which also capture the spririt and the mood of the movie.
  
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 161.225.48.3) on: Mon Jul 6 14:20:25 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  50% of IR's sucess in TFM is because of his R.R scores. He gave a new dimention to recording.
  Movies like Agni * - just a lousy story about having two wives, Raja lifted the movie with his songs and perfect recording. -- The score when the two wives meet - A Tabla and Sitar...Only Raja has can do it..The last scene in Kadaluku Mariyadai.
  Aravind, Your point is not valid, Raja is guru for TF BGM. Though other have done good work, Raja tops them.
  Poovizi vasalile - Every scene will remaind Raja.
  - The Augumented Chorded and 4th Chorded Brass scores - Who has taught about these kinds of chord progression in India. - No One till now except Raja.
  
  Once again Raja's recording is not a overdose of scores, without those scores all the movies are just slient movies - he is the master in rerecording.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Veera Akkoor (@ 1cust27.tnt2.det1.da.uu.net) on: Tue Jul 7 20:21:39 EDT 1998
  
  Why do people drag us(IR fans) to praise the maestro always? DO we need to explain what the BGM genius had done in the past. The only MD who proved that BGM is the life line of a movie example being any movie by "Bharathiraaja,Mahendran,Balumahendra,Manirathnam,Vamsi(telugu)etc.
  
  He is born for BGM. For your info to quote the cine star Revathi "We need not worry about not acting in any scene Raaja sir fills it perfectly with the BG score". He is a supreme perfectionist to the core. He can make even a story with a loose line like agni* to a stupendous success.
  
  The classic examples being crime thrillers like sigappu rojakkal,tik tik tik,Maharishi(telugu),Poovizhi vaasalile,idayakoil,Udayageetham,Gopuravasalile,all Bharathiraaja movies and to top it all "Kathalukku Mariyathai". As mentioned the climax scene played the song in a different beat.
  
  I could keep describing about the genius forever. Nothing is too much for the maestro especially in BG score.
  
  
  Thanks
  
  
  Veera Akkoor.
  
  
• From: Veera Akkoor (@ 1cust27.tnt2.det1.da.uu.net) on: Tue Jul 7 20:32:06 EDT 1998
  
  Dear friends,
  I forgot to tell the reply for Nayagan piece. Can you recollect the song "thenpandi chimaiyile"? This song comes four times in the movie. First time we donot have any music. Second with minimum score that is with little effect. The third with more effect. The final piece has the Jazz effect and full orchestration. This would explain the full story of Velu Nayakar. That is first he is a kid and in later stages he matures with the story and the music too matures. I cannot imagine anyone to give that kind of effect.
  Who can bring the mood of the story in music form?
  IF anyone has seen such a piece of BG ,please tell me. The credit ofcourse goes to both Mani and IR.
  
  Please do not compare ARR's scores with the Music genius and supreme BG "IR".
  
  Thanks
  
  Veera Akkoor.
  
  
• From: mannAru (@ ns.arraycomm.com) on: Fri Jul 10 20:19:03 EDT 1998
  
  I am shocked to see the points raised by Aravind.
  He points all good things in the BGM and says
  it is annoying him. See 'indian' movie. somebody
  kathufying in the BG is horrible. But for Bombay and Roja BGM is good.
  
  Remarkable BGM by IR is in
  Mounaragam, idayathai thirudade, anjali, noorAvadhu nAl, moonRam piRai, nAyagan, devadhai, kadhalukku mariyAdhai, mudhal mariyAdhai, agni
  nakshathiram, AthmA, kazhuku and much more movies.
  
  In fact if u ask me which part of IR's creation
  i like the most(songs or BGM), i will choose BGM.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ socks6d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Sat Jul 11 11:19:04 EDT 1998
  
  Idhayam was a very big hit when it came out. I think it stands second only to Pesum Padam in terms of lack of dialogues. If not for IR, this would be a silent movie.
  
  
• From: R.Balaji (@ 129.130.140.41) on: Sat Jul 11 21:46:32 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Arvind,
  Please don't continue this thread with the intention of degrading a genius's BGM recording.
  Whole tamil nadu is praising IR for his BGM and his works in TFM.
  i am happy that Sirkanth is complementing IR.Srikanth vazhga!
  
  
• From: Arvind Kumar (@ ip216.santa-clara11.ca.pub-ip.psi.net) on: Sun Jul 12 16:02:12 EDT 1998
  
  Balaji and others,
  
  Please do *not* teach me on how to appreciate BGM.
  I feel that BGM by Raja is overdone in tamil movies, to the point of being annoying. However this is not true in every film.
  
  I am not going to respond to this thread anymore.
  
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 254.minneapolis-07.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Sun Jul 12 16:14:39 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Aravind Kumar,
  It is you who started this topic , now you are running away from this. - Alas! unable to prove the your point..until now.
  
  No one tried to teach you! - I am sure I have much better things to do than that.,
  We tried to make things clear...also to make sure no one accuses Raja's BGM without valid points.
  Tell me a good BGM score better than Raja's in TFM - You cannot say!...
  Because 'ARR poota case in RR and others follow ( better word than "Copy") IR's style.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
  

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