Psychology of transition

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Psychology of transition Psychology of transition

Topic started by Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on Tue Dec 9 21:31:08 EST 1997.
All times in EDT/EST +9:30/10:30 for IST.

Responses:

From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Tue Dec 9 21:34:30 EST 1997

Since the 50's TFM has seen several phases with important periods
of transition between them. In the 50's G Ramanathan and R Sudarsanam
used to me in the top. In the late 50's MSV/TKR brought in mellisai
with a bang and TFM fans hooked-on to their enchanting music immediately.
This was the first important transition. In the middle 60's there was
a transition when MSV and TKR parted and there was confusion as to who
would rule TFM from then on. MSV won the race and went on to dominate
TFM for 10 more years. Then in 1976 Ilayaraja came with a BIG bang and
the second part of the 70's witnessed an important transition phase.
After a big gap of about 15 years, ARR (+Deva) have walked in to give
a new direction to TFM and TFM appears to be going through another important
(long) period of transition.

What I would like to be discussed here is the psychology of transition.
When a fresh MD with new methods and ideas comes-in with a bang,
how does a theevira rasigan of the old, established MD react?
Why does he/she react that way?
Does this reaction continue for ever?
How does the theevira fan of the new MD react?
Who are these theevira fans? Were they fans of the old, established MD
who got converted?
How do the old, established MD and the new MD react in this transition?
(Can anyone really know these reactions precisely?)
etc. etc.

I know NOV, Kanchana, Gopal and Amar will have a lot to say in this topic since
they have seen some of the key transition periods. I am sure others will
also have many comments to make. If we go through this discussion clearly,
perhaps we may get some hints about how a transition phase has to be
approached. I sincerely hope that this thread will not end-up as another
"IR fans vs ARR fans" dishum-dishum!
From: RAJAN (@ proxy-114.iap.bryant.webtv.net) on: Tue Dec 9 22:27:29 EST 1997

What I gathered from the others is, there was no such (theevira) reactions before MSV period; this dishum dishum started only after the MSV. (May be wrong).

Who got converted?
1. Most (not all) of the MSV fans are now ARR fans. This is true, most of my friends fathers, relatives are in this category.
I hope KANCHANA may answer for this.
2. The young generation.
3. Some of them who really appreciate the good musics.

Does this reaction continue for ever?
Those who are in the transition 1 will only appreciate the transition 3, 5,....
Those who are in the transition 2 will only appreciate the transition 4, 6,....
Ex: Assume the transition..
MSV - IR - ARR - KR - .......
MSV fans will appreciate ARR and not IR, KR.
IR fans will appreciate KR and not ARR.
This is the fact.

I am wondering, how the mellisai mannarin theevira rasigarkal, Isaipuyalin theevira rasigarkal aanargal yendru. This may be because of Psycology.

THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION.This may be correct/wrong.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-ti01.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Dec 10 01:39:59 EST 1997

Keerthi:

I think what you have started here is one dissertation (or more?). Excellent topic if approached with a historical perspective of TFM.

Clarifications upfront:
I was born during the MSV-TKR era, and grew up during the MSV era & the very early iLayaraja era. What I'm going to outline pertains to my/my family's experiences only and is not an attempt to generalize.

I'll start with the pre-MSV/TKR period with the legendary MD's. Obviously, I wasn't born even, but I am familiar with the music and recently have been appreciating it more & more. The lyrics were more sanskritized and the music was based on carnatic ragams.

Then came MSV-TKR who tried to fit into the carnatic mold, but couldn't make a dent. They radically turned the entire scene around with Paava Mannippu in the late 50's, redefining the rules for TFM, shifting it out of the carnatic realm, and laying the foundation for the modern movie music as we know it today. This transition did not go unnoticed. My parents absolutely loved MSV-TKR and welcomed them with open arms, but my grandparents held on tight to the old HMV gramaphone and heavy graphite records of PUC,MKT,MMKT,MSS,MLV,VK et al, and pronounced MSV-TKR's music as lacking swara layam, thamizh kalai nayam, etc. etc. Basically my grandparents were unable/did not want to accept any music they were not familiar with. So, Rajan, there was a dishum--dishum then too, but it was not so loud as today because of the times, I assume.

By the late 70's MSV was wearing out and iLayaraja burst into the scene like a breath of fresh air. I was a teenager here, and was able to welcome IR. What I liked about IR was the fact he was tinkering around with new techniques, new types of orchestration/instruments and the way he somehow "volume yaethufied" his songs. Songs from iLamai Oonjalaadugiradhu, Pudhiya VaarpugaL, Sigappu RojaakkaL and Madhura Geedham were some of my favorites then. I have to own that as a teenager I liked IR for his non-naattuppura songs; I loved the way he used the guitar in some of his early songs.

Now, my parents were another story. They said that IR's music was too westernized, his orchestration was too loud and you can't understand the lyrics; they said (not as a compliment) I liked IR because I was also into western music heavily then. They also pointed to songs like oaram poa oaram poa rukkumani vandi varudhu and claimed that the standard in movies & music overall was declining. So my parents refused to accept IR, but had no option over the next two decades:))

Since I left India for the US as IR was getting to be the Raja, and never witnessed the "arrival" of ARR or Deva, my perceptions of these transitions do not count.

My heart still lies with MSV-TKR songs which blend great lyrics with unpretentious music, but I have favorites from G.Ramanathan, M.B.Srinivasan, T. Chalapathi Rao, A.M.Raja, MSV, iLayaraja, A.R.Rahman, Deva and Vidyasagar.
I'm starting to appreciate the pre-MSV/TKR era music more and more now--now, what's the psychology behind this, I wonder???!!!!.

But, looking at my grandparents' response to MSV-TKR and my parents' response to iLayaraja, there are some similarities:
1. they did not wish to accept something new;
2. they accused the newer MD of detracting from the cultural heritage, and held their generation was superior in safeguarding our heritage;
3. this "denial" continued for their life duration;
4. they lost out on some good music, in my opinion, because of this denial.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-ti01.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Dec 10 01:40:15 EST 1997

Keerthi:

I think what you have started here is one dissertation (or more?). Excellent topic if approached with a historical perspective of TFM.

Clarifications upfront:
I was born during the MSV-TKR era, and grew up during the MSV era & the very early iLayaraja era. What I'm going to outline pertains to my/my family's experiences only and is not an attempt to generalize.

I'll start with the pre-MSV/TKR period with the legendary MD's. Obviously, I wasn't born even, but I am familiar with the music and recently have been appreciating it more & more. The lyrics were more sanskritized and the music was based on carnatic ragams.

Then came MSV-TKR who tried to fit into the carnatic mold, but couldn't make a dent. They radically turned the entire scene around with Paava Mannippu in the late 50's, redefining the rules for TFM, shifting it out of the carnatic realm, and laying the foundation for the modern movie music as we know it today. This transition did not go unnoticed. My parents absolutely loved MSV-TKR and welcomed them with open arms, but my grandparents held on tight to the old HMV gramaphone and heavy graphite records of PUC,MKT,MMKT,MSS,MLV,VK et al, and pronounced MSV-TKR's music as lacking swara layam, thamizh kalai nayam, etc. etc. Basically my grandparents were unable/did not want to accept any music they were not familiar with. So, Rajan, there was a dishum--dishum then too, but it was not so loud as today because of the times, I assume.

By the late 70's MSV was wearing out and iLayaraja burst into the scene like a breath of fresh air. I was a teenager here, and was able to welcome IR. What I liked about IR was the fact he was tinkering around with new techniques, new types of orchestration/instruments and the way he somehow "volume yaethufied" his songs. Songs from iLamai Oonjalaadugiradhu, Pudhiya VaarpugaL, Sigappu RojaakkaL and Madhura Geedham were some of my favorites then. I have to own that as a teenager I liked IR for his non-naattuppura songs; I loved the way he used the guitar in some of his early songs.

Now, my parents were another story. They said that IR's music was too westernized, his orchestration was too loud and you can't understand the lyrics; they said (not as a compliment) I liked IR because I was also into western music heavily then. They also pointed to songs like oaram poa oaram poa rukkumani vandi varudhu and claimed that the standard in movies & music overall was declining. So my parents refused to accept IR, but had no option over the next two decades:))

Since I left India for the US as IR was getting to be the Raja, and never witnessed the "arrival" of ARR or Deva, my perceptions of these transitions do not count.

My heart still lies with MSV-TKR songs which blend great lyrics with unpretentious music, but I have favorites from G.Ramanathan, M.B.Srinivasan, T. Chalapathi Rao, A.M.Raja, MSV, iLayaraja, A.R.Rahman, Deva and Vidyasagar.
I'm starting to appreciate the pre-MSV/TKR era music more and more now--now, what's the psychology behind this, I wonder???!!!!.

But, looking at my grandparents' response to MSV-TKR and my parents' response to iLayaraja, there are some similarities:
1. they did not wish to accept something new;
2. they accused the newer MD of detracting from the cultural heritage, and held their generation was superior in safeguarding our heritage;
3. this "denial" continued for their life duration;
4. they lost out on some good music, in my opinion, because of this denial.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-ti01.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Dec 10 01:43:50 EST 1997

TFM Group:

Could you please remove the second posting? Sorry for the trouble.
From: Gokul (@ p1.echostar.com) on: Wed Dec 10 02:40:33 EST 1997

I dont really remember what songs were coming out of MSV when I started to notice music in films. For sometime I was singing Sambo Siva Sambo( I must've been 11/12 then I guess when did this
movie get released?). I thought that song was cool with Rajini and all that. I dont remember Annakili and other movies. I was kind
of oblivious to one of the greatest event that happened to TFM
(I was busy playing cricket and koli). The first song that struck me
was En Kanmani.. (from chittukuruvi) by then people around me were talking about MSV being de-throned by IR. I didn't care too much.

When films like Nizhalgal came, I was really getting sucked into Raja's web. Every day was glorious listening to Vivith Bharathi in my ottai
radio and rejoicing like crazy when songs like "Ithu Oru PonMaalai Pozhudu" stood at the top for weeks in IOB Top Ten in ceylon radio.

I was really getting awestruck by the variety in the music and when I had to listen to some old songs of MSV/TKR
they sounded monotonous & mediocre (excuse me folks).

I was getting exposed to a fine Blend of Carnatic,western and naatupura songs I could not digest MSV's stuff.Me and my friend
Lakshminarayanan used to take immense pleasure in talking for hours marvelling Raja's work and ignoring others. Every day was wonderful.

There came a day when my brother brought a Cassette and said there is a new MD and the songs are good.It was Roja. I could not accept the fact
for sometime that anybody other than IR could give good music in TFM.
I had to give in after listening to songs like "Puthu Vellai Mazhai.."

I have liked many of ARR's songs wondering at his innovativeness at the sametime, I cannot help but feel how it would have been if only IR had scored music for that.

I never for one moment stopped thinking how would it have been if IR had scored the BGM for Roja while I was watching it.

I have been thinking often why do I hate ARR even though his music is not all that despicable and he is capable of making good music..

It is the love I have for IR and his music. It is my camouflaged desire to relive the days of my past adolescent youth when his music was
refreshing my otherwise dreary days.
Basically it is matter of what you can relate to. I could easily relate to the concepts in IR's music.ARR's generous use of POPish music form is not that turns me on.

I have grown and matured with IR's music and ARR's music at times sounds too flippant to me.I feel I am more matured than his music.

I guess I would forever be a hardcore IR fan!
From: Gokul (@ p1.echostar.com) on: Wed Dec 10 03:16:37 EST 1997

on further thoughts..

(konja naala adangi irunthen.. Ippadi ussupethi vittuteengile Sathya!)

Mudhalil itta mutham..
Muthalil konda mogham..
muthalil ketta paadal!

Enna than Manavi samaithaalum
ammavin kayil kondatharku eedaguma?

That is the difficulty in accepting this transition too!
From: shankar (@ webgate2.mot.com) on: Wed Dec 10 03:34:17 EST 1997

I think what rajan said is partly true .For instance , my father was a hardcore MSV fan and I clearly
remember , in my childhood days ,the arguments (not as heated as ours) my dad and uncle used to have (uncle -IR fan , who by then was a new md) .
Now my dad is a great admirer of IR . It 'll take some time for the people who are /were hardcore fans of one MD to admire a new one .Probably they are used to that MD's style and may find it difficult to adapt to another style . But this can't be generalised (bcos the new MD then was IR who doesn't follow any style and that makes a difference ) .
For " MSV's fans becoming ARR fans " - those people who didn't /don't like IR's style (he doesn't stick to one style ,though) would 've become ARR fans (here again I find no reason for this as both their styles are contrasting .while MSV totally relies on the tune, ARR relies on rythms/beats ) Probably they couldn't digest the fact that IR is anyday better than MSV in tunes , orchestration and variety (which MSV himself has accepted -perunthanmai) .Mind U ,I am not trying to start any argument .This is just MY OPINION .It would be ideal if those people who got converted answer the reason for their conversion (as u call it ) .
From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Wed Dec 10 04:40:05 EST 1997

Sathiya Keerthi - Intha neraththil neengal intha topioc-ai aarambiththathu rombavum appropriate-aaga irukkuthu. A very relevant topic.

You have said that there were four eras: 50's, 60's 70's/80's and the current period. I really can't comment on the pre-MSV era, as I was not even born then. Now for the next three eras.

I don't think "idolising" music directors began, until Ilayaraaja came into the scene. In fact recognising technicians such as MDs, cameraman, editor, choreographer, etc. are all recent phenomena. In the 60's there were many other MDs besides MSV and TKR. KVM immediately comes to mind. Up till IR came into the field, people recognised songs as old and new, i.e. 60's and 70's. The general perception was that the 70's songs were much inferior to the oldies. I was in the "short-pants" age and a rebel then. While everyone in my family liked old songs, I prefered the new.

Then Ilayaraja came into the field and Annakili songs were everywhere. I believe he created a huge impact only after 16 Vayathineiley, after which I became a staunch fan. I became financially independent in 1980 and since then grabbed every new IR release. As most of you had said, fans of the pre-IR era (note: not particularly MSV fans) didn't think much of his songs. My love for IR grew stronger and stronger in the 80s, when I gathered freinds of the same interests and discuss way into the night about IR songs. I had even written many articles for our local magazines. From then on, until now, I have always remained a fan of IR.

ARR came into the field with a bang in the early 90's. I was also affected by it, but did not attach much importance. However, his later compositions began to impress me, bit by bit. By then I had "matured" and now, in my 30's (age) I am able to appreciate good music irregardless of the composer.

IMO, those who vehemently disliked newer songs, have softened and have come to accept them. So, there are almost no pre-IR fans who disticntly dislike his songs, nowadays. But generally they prefer the 60's songs. As for people like me, we so do not dislike ARR/Deva compositions and can even enjoy some of them, while IR will reign supreme always. But I believe the younger IR fans (in their 20's) will find it difficult to accept anybody else until much later - maybe when someone else comes to topple ARR/Deva! :-))

Rajan - you should view this discussion with emotional detachment. Saying that MSV fans are now ARR fans seems to me as an angry rebuke rather than a reasonable evaluation.

Kanchana - I learned something new from your evaluation. Thanks. I believe that the reasons may differ from generation to generation, but the bottom line is that there will always be resistance to change.

Gokul - You enjoy ammavin samayal because, you were brought up with it, and not necessarily because it was better. This is a psychological analysis!:-)))

Please note that I am compelled to inform all poster in the DF that I'll be on leave until next week, and won't be able to respond until then :-)))
From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Wed Dec 10 15:05:09 EST 1997

I was brought up in a household where there was no tradition of listening to film songs. We were all aware of films, film songs but music - of whatever form - did not play a great part in our lifestyle. Let me add that I grew up in a village - with one "touring talkies" - and I probably saw 3 - 4 movies per year.

When I was 13, I went to a relatives house in Madras to continue my studies. My cousins always had the transistor on between 7:45 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. + tuned to Vividh Bharathi. Between 7:45 and 9:15 there used to be film songs, often presented by some celebrity ( I am talking of the years ( 77-80 ), followed by a drama for 15 mins followed by film ads for sometime. I used to listen to these broadcasts religiously but still I wasnt really committed to TFM.

The first song that really stunned me was "En Iniya Pon Nilaave". It is an amazing song with superb voice. By that time, my family had moved to a suburb of Madras and I had gone back taking the tradition of listening to film songs with me. And I thought Ilayaraja was one of the best things that happened to the music world. I didnt really think that MSV measured upto IR.

I later picked up the habit of listening to old songs in Madras A between 10:00 and 11:00 p.m. As I listened to these songs more and more, I became enamoured of two MDs viz. MSV-TKR and G Ramanathan. At that time, my fascination with IR was on the downswing mainly because of stupid lyrics like "Oram Po" and "Enna Paattu Paada". I thought/think IR should hv produced more of "En Iniya Pon Nilave" kind of songs. I thought that IRs gems hv lots of junk around them.

That was the time we bought a TV and TV specialized in broadcasting movies of the nature of "Aayiram Thalai Vaangiya Aboorva Sinthaamani". BTW, I saw this movie because GR was the MD of this one. As I kept seeing more movies of this nature, I realized that GR had several "unimpressive" songs too. I came to the conclusion that as time went on, the less deserving songs of the old times slowly faded into the oblivion; as we hear the better ones repeatedly, we come to the conclusion that the old-timers frequency of churning out a good song is higher. IR in the mid eighties was going thro a phase where it looked like he really concentrated of a few movies - banners like Motherland, big heroes like Kamal and Rajini - etc. and produced several forgettable numbers.

I also moved out of TN in the mid-eighties. I had also discovered HFM by that time and was into it completely. Now and then I used to hear some good ones espy by Ilayaraja - "Kottayai Vittu Vettaikku Pogum Sudalai Maada Saami" etc. - but my conclusions remained unchanged - MSV-TKR is the all time #1, followed by IR, KVM, MSV, GR with AM Raja and Sudarsanam bringing up the rear. Then I heard "Chinna Chinna Aasai". Fabulous! Then I heard some songs in Gentleman. Superb! Then I heard Pudhiya Mugam songs. Very good. ( BTW, "Kannukku Mai Azhagu" is a song I love to hate. - I think Vairamuthu is too pretentious. ) Kizhakku Cheemaiyile! and then I heard Kaadhalan - Kaadhalan makes you tap your feet to junk songs - because if you hear it repeatedly, you get used to it. I had to revise my opinion of ARR after that and few more movies. I think ARR lacks the greatness of several old timers but he is a brilliant technician. Pl. note the transition is a downswing after having a good opinion of ARR for quite some time. ;-)
From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Wed Dec 10 15:10:47 EST 1997

Oops! I dont know why but the last para got eaten away in the last posting.

Basically, I had a discovery in the early 80s - IR. My opinion slowly underwent a downswing while I disovered old TFM. MSV-TKR and GR. I was away and then I was very impressed by ARR. Again the opinion took a downswing after sometime.

The only ones who I really love are MSV-TKR. Every movie I hv seen of them has at least one good song. IR comes closest to this average.

Can someone point out a "bad movie" by MSV-TKR ? I think it is a matter of time before I discover one. ;-)
From: sappaatu raaman (@ cs512.cs.wmich.edu) on: Wed Dec 10 16:15:59 EST 1997

Oru sappattu virumbiyin kanippu

ARRs music is like eating sweets. u will like to have it once in a while but u cannot have it has the main course..romba thigattidum

Devas music is like eating the previous days food.Sometimes even that will taste good(like pazhaiya saadham etc:)

Ilaiyarajas music is like eating rice.But u can be bored with eating rice everyday and will expect for a change,variety.But generally rice is the main food for South Indians-u cannot avoid it.

MSV-TKR music is like water.We cannot live without it
From: pg (@ client-116-121.bellatlantic.net) on: Wed Dec 10 21:01:07 EST 1997

IR's music is like oxygen. You can survive without water for a day or two but try that with oxygen.

These misplaced analogies aside IMHO Kannadhasan's lyrics are a very major reason for the longevity of MSV's and MSV-TKR's music. MSV and VR were great musicians no doubt but they have had their share of turkeys. I have seen many old movies with MSV's music which are total junk. To be fair the movies deserved such music (many of which are missing from PPP's list). Ditto to KVM. I bought a HMV cassette with four movies of KVM for one song - iravukkum pagalukkum ini enna velai (from engaL thanga rAjA) hoping to have more good numbers but of about 15 songs in the cassette this was the only song worth listening to.

The human mind does selective filtering - only the good music is remembered.

And it has always been my opinion that IR's success in film music became an Achilles Heel after some time. He was one guy who transcended film music (though not to the extent I would have wanted him to). I remember Kamalhaasan saying in one interview that films shackled IR - I fully agree with that. IR's range is unmatched in IFM - from folk to tappanguthu to pure carnatic classical to western classical to pop to fusion there is no one who is his equal.
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ synergy.nus.edu.sg) on: Wed Dec 10 22:31:54 EST 1997

Since I will be busy today I will respond to all the
initial interesting and excellent observations made by
Rajan, Kanchana, Gokul, Shankar and RV, tomorrow.

I am making this hurried posting just to prevent
a degeneration that this topic may take seeing
the posting of saappaattu raaman.
PG: I guess you couldn't resist reacting
to s' raaman's posting! I request others not to
react similarly since that will seriously harm the
progress of this topic.

To everyone:

It's quite alright to mention your (+of
those who you have known personally) historical
preferences for MDs while you discuss the
psychology issue, but please do not get
into any (provoking) comparisons of MDs since
that is not the intent of this topic.
From: Bhaskar (@ dutyfree.proxy.lucent.com) on: Wed Dec 10 23:02:32 EST 1997

Sathiya Keerthi Sir:

I had a reverse Psychology of transition so to say. I will explain below how.

I started listening to Tamil songs with keen observation only may be from Agni Nakshatram. That is when may be I had a Tape recorder and some money to buy casettes. Till that time I never gave any interest towards music, I used to just hear the songs that come from the Radio but never listened to it with attention to anything. So I am new comer to the TFM listening.

After Agni Nakshatram I would have listened to almost all of the IR compositions that came later on. During my stay in the Hostel I had a friend called Raghavan from Malaysia, who used have a whole lot of IR, MSV and AMR collection. In his room he used to play TFM 24 Hours a day. I started listening to the songs that he used to play and got very interested in the IR songs that came before Agni Nakshatram. Only then I started listening to Annakili, Nizhalgal, Geethajali and so many IR creations.

By the end of 1992 when I passed out from college I had listened to almost all of IR's hits and started migrating to MSV/TKR and AMR era songs. Also by this time I picked up quite a bit of Tamizh knowledge, learnt it hard myself and started reading newspapers, kumudham, Ananda Vikatan and trying to interpret meaning of old songs. Once I could get a little grip over the tamizh I started liking almost all of MSV/TKR's hits. Also by trying to read some old novels of Sansilyan, Mu Varadarasan, and some other novels I learnt a little bit of Pazhagaala Tamizh. Once I learnt the pazhaya tamizh I started liking old Bharathiyaar songs and AM Raaja songs very much. That is why I said I had a reverse Psychology of transition. Now a days I listen to lot of MSV/TKR and AMR.

IMO, ARR came as an extension to IR compositions. ARR has a lot of qualities that IR has and some creativity/innovation which lot of other new MD's miss out on. ARR has the power to make a tune catchy.

My transition was IR/ARR -> MSV/TKR -> AMR :))))
From: Bhaskar (@ dutyfree.proxy.lucent.com) on: Wed Dec 10 23:08:34 EST 1997

Some typos: It is Sandilyan instead of sansilyan and pazhangaala instead of pazhagaala.
PS: That is why I am always interested in the meaning of the old songs so that my appreciation for the song goes up when I get to know the right meanings for the songs.
From: cp (@ 1cust234.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Wed Dec 10 23:42:35 EST 1997

1.When a fresh MD with new methods and ideas comes-in with a bang, how does a theevira rasigan of the old, established MD react? - In my case, I have heard songs from MSV, IR and ARR. I heard MSV when I was very young - even then they have always stayed close to my heart the reason being those were wonderful melodies with good lyrics. As far as IR is concerned I loved them because there was just sheer magic in this songs and I lost my soul and mind in those. It was just total bliss. I do not attach my age or youth or anything them. His songs are just divine. I do not think anyone who has heard MSV and ARR will also love IR's music. I liked rather loved ARR's Roja and Pudhiya Mugam but did expect the same from his next list of movies but was disappointed. Even though I am ardent fan of IR, I do not hate or dislike any other MD's songs. But qualitywise,I find there is a compromise in ARR's music as regards to tune and lyrics nowadays. This is my sincere opinion.

Why does he/she react that way? - I will definitely accept ARR's songs if he will give good music like Roja or Pudhiya Mugam. I love to hear MSV's music anytime - no doubt about that.

Does this reaction continue for ever? - If IR goes out of TFM and if I get good music from ARR then I might turn into an ARR fan.

How does the theevira fan of the new MD react? - Obviously, they wouldn't accept the pitfalls and the drawbacks of the new MD. Even though ARR recycles a lot of tunes and gives only selected hits, the fans say that all his movies are a hit and they do not mind about his repeating tunes.

Who are these theevira fans? Were they fans of the old, established MD who got converted? - A theevira fan will cease to be one only when the old MD fails to give good music or the new MD excels the old MD. In my case, I doubt if I will become an ARR fan. This is just my opinion.

How do the old, established MD and the new MD react in this transition?
The old established MD just maintains a low profile and the new MD is at the centerstage and gets all his attention. For how long the new MD stays in the limelight and the old MD comes back with a bang or quits the career depends on the individual's talents.

I have tried to answer most of the questions. All of those are of MY OPINION only as the interpretation of the questions are subjective.
From: cp (@ 1cust234.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Wed Dec 10 23:46:38 EST 1997

I am sorry.
"I do not think anyone who has heard MSV and ARR will also love IR's music" should be read as
"I think anyone who listens to MSV and ARR will also love IR's music"
From: Arun (@ internet1.ford.com) on: Thu Dec 11 08:59:44 EST 1997

This is probably the thread that I agreed with most of the responses. There are even certain things that I have noticed before but never really given much thought to, until I read it here. I will come to that later.

I come from a family and background where talking about movies and music was frowned upon. I am the youngest of four and nobodyelse in my family had neither interest nor knowledge about any music. Moreover the tragedy that hit our family when I was in elementary school, made things even worse. I was about 10, when Annakkili came out. Machaanai paatheengalaa was playing everywhere I was immediately was drawn to it. But that was an age that you don't know or care who did the music, but the music itself. As far as I can remember that was my very first favorite song. (My mom now says that I used to `sing' Ammaadee ponnukku thanga manasu all the time when I was about five or six, but I don't remember it.)

Until I was thirteen or fourteen I used to think of myself as a MSV fan. Only when I was in an argument with my then best friend (who was a staunch IR fan) that I reliased how many of my favorite songs were by IR. Then I stopped arguing and started paying more attention to his music. Every weekend I will give some excuse to my mom, ride 2 miles in my bicycle to my friend's house just so I could listen to movie-songs on his cassette player. In my high school days I was probably the only guy who was more interested in cinema paattu than in cricket. I will take our ancient `valve radio` to the bedroom every sunday afternoon so I can listen to Ungal Viruppam from Coimbatore at a very low volume so as not to attact attention.

When I finally got a cassette player as a gift from my mom, after everything stabilized, I was on the top of the world. I was collecting cassettes like crazy and listening to them all the time. I broke all the copyright laws to get my hands on the music that I loved. The interest didn't slow down a bit even after I went to college.

I had been amazed by a lot people at that stage like Kamalhaasan, (writer) Sujatha, Jayakanthan.. but if I was a fan of somebody it was only IR. My raththam would kothichufy if somebody spoke anything less of IR. My roomate in college who came from an very educated music background (both western and carnatic) used to say that IR was extremely over-rated and copied a lot. He was very much into western classical, newage and contemporary music and used to play the guitar very well. Although he had some appreciation for IR he used to quote a lot of strong influences that IR had from various other sources. I used to fanatically defend IR but lamented that I didn't have the knowledge that he had in music. But I didn't let that stop from enjoying what I loved the most. That is when I realised there is no such thing as `good' or `bad' music but only music you like or you don't. Whatever the reasons given are always because of the later, and don't constitute the former. I have seen enormous proofs for this 'til now.

When I passed out of college and started working in Madras, my interest in TFM waned away slowly. I thought I was just grown out of it and has become more `mature' to appreciate `better things' in life like my folks. Later I realised that I was just bored of the monotonous music that was coming out of TFM then. By this time I started listening to the huge oldies collection that my new roomate had. I was amazed to find that the same music that I thought uninspiring when I was very young sounded incredibly sweet now.

When I first heard Roja it struck me differently and I loved it. I had come to US and had become very financially independent for a long time then. But Roja was the first cassette I acquired for myself after a long time. But I didn't think Rahman will keep this up for long, like so many other MDs who will give hits in their first film and then disappear when people expected more. My opinion changed very slowly after listening to several of his albums. By `Bombay', I have become a thorough fan and had made a big invesment in an audio system bought all his albums in CDs.

Guess my transition goes like IR -> MSV-TR/AMR/KVM -> ARR. But I will always enjoy the music by all of them made during their prime.

Coming back to my revelation that I had from Rajan's observation. I have this friend who ia a close friend of my brother-in-laws. About 15years older than me, that I would consider as the previous generation. He is (was) a big AMRaja/KVM fan and used to berate IR (as unimaginative in rhythms, uses the same tabla beat song after song, every song follows the same formula.. etc.. etc..). `What an ancient relic!', I thought (Sorry Mr. ...m.). He said even a $100 spent on a car stereo wasn't even worth it. Recently when I visited him after about five years he had a very expensive surround sound system with all the gizmos and was tapping to `Humma.. Humma' like a 15 year old. When I asked that I thought he didn't like today's music, he said "Oh yeah, But listen to this guy's music! Just too good!!" Even though I was kinda felt better, I never understood it until I read this thread.
(Sorry for the lecture.)

- Arun.
From: Arun (@ internet1.ford.com) on: Thu Dec 11 09:12:33 EST 1997

Two corerctions:

Please read I have seen enormous proofs for this 'til now.

as I have seen numorous proofs for this 'til now.

Also read: Even though I was kinda felt better, I never understood it until I read this thread.

as: Even though I kinda felt better, I never understood it until I read this thread.

Apologies.

- Arun.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tk06.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu Dec 11 10:33:17 EST 1997

Arun:

As with any element of human psychology and behavior, there are multiple explanations for the preferences of your friend "Mr. Ancient Relic" :-)

I'll wait for Keerthi to sum up his thoughts on the personal anecdotes shared here, before getting into the "analysis" part of the discussion.
From: Amar (@ worf.qntm.com) on: Thu Dec 11 14:29:26 EST 1997

Keerthi:
Don't sum it up yet. I have been very busy here at work and this is such a topic where once I start, I am afraid I will continue pouring until we run out of interspace. And I can't afford the time now and I know we can't afford to lose out our space in this "internet" world. More over I may not make much sense or make too much sense.
I want to take a break and organize my thoughts and write that down in a succint but descriptive manner.
This is an "Interesting" topic and I love it.

Thanks,

Amar
--------
From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Thu Dec 11 14:59:05 EST 1997

A btw observation triggered by Amars mail:

I and a close friend of mine, who doesnt know one word of Tamizh, often listen to Tamil songs. It is he who pointed out to me that ARR kind of repeats himself. I mention this in the context of Amar senior friend saying IR used to repeat himself. Maybe a common complaint in the transition ?

2. On reading my prev posting, I realize that one of the points I wanted to make was not clear:
All great MDs had their junk movies and good movies ( with the possible exception of MSV - TKR. And I say this because I hv seen less than 50 % of the movies by them. ) and as time goes on, we tend to forget the bad ones. e.g MKT must hv sang 100s of songs but most knowledgeable people know probably a dozen songs. This is true of GR, KVM, MSV-TKR, MSV, IR and quite possibly ARR.
From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Thu Dec 11 15:01:45 EST 1997

Oops again! It should hv read in response to Aruns mail.
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Fri Dec 12 02:47:35 EST 1997

Folks:

This topic has started off amazingly well, I think. I will not try to do
any summaries at this point. I will only make some observations on the
comments made thus far. I will also raise some questions which can lead
to some discussions. Meanwhile other TFM-DF participants can continue to
describe their personal transitions (as well as those of the people who they
have known in their life, like friends, relatives etc). Also, please do
raise and discuss questions that you find are relevant.

Several of you have given descriptions of your (+of others you know) personal
preferences/transitions. In the transitions that have been described
there is variety. As NOV has said, there are ones who are "hooked-on" to one
MD's music and only "softly" and "selectively" enjoy other MDs' music. This is
probably the typical category. I would put myself also in this category. But
what I find to be amazing, even from the small sample we've got here, is that
there are those, like RV and Bhaskar, who switched their liking from one MD's
music to the music by MDs who were far back in time! Various are people's tastes!

Arun made this wonderful statement: That was an age (say when he was in
school) that you don't know or care who did the music, but the music
itself. A fundamental set of questions then arises: Why don't we continue to
remain the same forever? Why do we, at some point in time become a "theevira
fan" of some MD? What does one gain by it? Does one get some "psychological
thrill" by being a fan of some MD (say, when the MD scores a great song and
everyone praises it as extrordinary, you derive great "substitutional pleasure")?
But, isn't that extremely harmful? After all, all that you end-up
by being a "theevira fan" is that you get terribly attached and become averse
to even good music that comes from other sources, and, not to mention all
that paranoia that "my MD is being challenged" etc!

What roles do the MD's attitudes towards other MDs play in the psychological
transitions of theevira fans? It would be interesting to do a historical analysis
of this question.

Nov, to some individual comments.

Rajan:

Your "jump-over-the-next-MD" theory is too much of extrapolation! I don't
believe, say, an MSV fan waits for 15 years to start seriously enjoying music
only after the arrival of someone other than IR, say ARR. I would consider such a
fan as crazy simply because: (1) he missed the lovely music of IR; and
(2) ARR's music style is farther away from MSV's than IR's. Would your theory
have been right if, say, KR had followed as the MD after IR? I also don't
understand your statement: IR fans will appreciate KR and not ARR.
In fact this opens up an important question that is very relevant to the
current times: Why do IR fans typically appreciate KR's music, but not
ARR's music? It would be interesting to discuss this matter, objectively.
Is it because of musical styles, or, are there psychological reasons?

Kanchana:

Nice observations about your Parents and Grand Parents. So, I guess there
are those fans who have loved music in a certain time period, and who never
went-on to like the music of later MDs. Obviously you haven't gotten yourself
into that kind of trap. (I do remember that the oaram poa oaram poa rukkumani
vandi varudhu song was banned in AIR in the late 70's because rowdies
started using it regularly for eve-teasing! What a strange reason!) I look
forward to your detailed analysis of various issues in this topic. Perhaps
we can all join together to write a dissertation and get a Ph D for TFM-DF!

Gokul:

UngaLai usuppivittadhu nalladhaa pOchchu. Illaatti ungaLudaya arumaiyaana
observations ingu vandhirukkumaa? Thanks. mudhal muththam, mudhal
mOgham, amma kai saappaadu endru examples koduththu explain paNNiyadhu
romba poruththam. Once one gets attached to one MD's music for many years,
the music, the style, and the songs get so entrenched into one's mental
system that it is extremely difficult to adapt totally (or convert) to
someone else's music. That explains why most people belong to the typical
category I mentioned above.

RV:

Interesting changes in preferences. Two comments on your statements: Can someone
point out a "bad movie" by MSV-TKR ? I think it is a matter of time before I
discover one. There was a movie maganE kEL in 1965, none of whose songs
became popular. As regards your comment that MSV/TKR gave a much higher rate of
good-songs-per-movie than IR, it is because they did only about 10-15 movies
per year while IR was doing 40 per year! Anyway let's not get into these
comparisons in this thread.

Bhaskar:

Another reverse psychology of transition! Now I see why you are so keenly
interested in interpreting the lyrics of those songs of yester-years. I am
sure all the effort you put-in to learn Thamizh properly and then go-on to
spend time on Thamizh classics has been very worthwhile.

cp:

Ennanga, EdhO nirubar kEtta kELvigaLukku badhil sonna maadhiri tuk-tuk-nnu
badhil sollittu pOyutteenga? It would be nice if you can open-up and discuss
any matter that you feel is relevant to this thread.

Arun:

The most beautifully described personal transitions award goes to you.
Your comments on good/bad and likes/dislikes is certainly very valid. Your
friend's change of preferences -- very interesting! Have you talked to him
to find an explanation? Let's see what Kanchana has to say on this.

Amar:

Yov. TFM-DF thaan life-il more important. (Just kidding!) So, forget your work and
pour your looong set of thoughts here. We're waiting.
From: Arun (@ internet1.ford.com) on: Fri Dec 12 09:02:55 EST 1997

Kanchana:
I cannot wait for your explanation for my friend's preferences. I was totally clueless until I read Rajan's theory. It makes better sense to me now than it did before.

Sathiya Keerthi:
Thank you for the award; I am honored. I did talk my friend. He said ARR's music is much better than IR's. That's what confused me: KVM/AMR's music style have even less in common with ARR's than IR's. He disagreed: It's not the style, but the quality (IHO). I didn't buy it completely, but was happy that atleast he finally likes that something that I like too.

- Arun.
From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Fri Dec 12 15:36:39 EST 1997

This is one of the best discussions that I hv seen in TFM. What follows is a digression; I am talking about music that interests me in general - not restricted to just TFM.

In the mid eighties, I slowly discovered HFM. I didnt hv any baggage from the childhood days here and I found it very easy to relate to various MDs, singers, lyric writers, film directors in the context of filming songs etc. I had several discoveries - never a transition.

In the late eighties, I got introduced to Western Classical Music. I personnaly consider Beethoven and Bach to be the ultimate "musical" persons. Again, I never had a transition - I had several discoveries. I never had the problem of saying "only A is good and nothing from B is good" or whatever. I am still discovering a lot here.

So the question that I hv is this: Is this "theevira rasigath thanmai" start only when you form an attachment in the childhood/adolescence ?
As one grows older, does one appreciate good music whatever be the origin ?

Digressing further, I grew up when Visvanath and Gavaskar were the cricketing idols of the country. I was a hardcore Vishy fan and I had trouble in acknowledging Gavaskars contributions and I tried to belittle SMG in every argument. Today I dont hv a problem in appreciating Saurabh Ganguly or Sidhu. I just look at each innings - i.e. if I get lucky!

So maybe as we grow older, we just make discoveries and not transitions. What do you guys think ?

Sorry to digress like this, but I can see no better way of illustrating my point.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-to04.proxy.aol.com) on: Fri Dec 12 20:30:28 EST 1997

RV:

That is very perceptive of you to raise that point. Without trying to do a Cognitive Psychology 101 lecture here, let me just say this: in our formative years a mental structure is established by the brain complete with reference points for each stimulus category we are exposed to. The purpose: to organize and process the complex world around us more efficiently. How new information coming in accepted or rejected when compared to the reference point varies on a particular person's latitude of acceptance or rejection within that category, i.e., it's highly individualistic and personal.

Coming to TFM, I don't believe I personally ever "transitioned" or "shifted" or "converted"; I found that I could easily add songs I liked to the MSV-TKR songs in my head. My first "mental anchor" for TFM was obviously the MSV-TKR music. But, as I saw and experienced new things like carnatic music, western classical, jazz or pop during my childhood/teenage years in India and later in the U.S. as an adult, this exposure helped widen my latitude of acceptance, which in turn helped me welcome IR, ARR and others who followed, and at the same time seek out and enjoy the pre-MSV/TKR era music.

Such "discoveries" or "broadening" is related more to the richness of your experiences and not necessarily to chronological age, in my opinion. I am a thirty-something now, but my acceptance of IR was immediate during my teen years based on his music.

Rajan:
Your skip-the-next-MD hypothesis certainly deserves to be examined. I believe it might apply to a certain % of fanatical followers but cannot be treated as a universal law. I personally cannot comprehend a blind passion of such high magnitude for one MD which automatically rejects the next MD by a real music fan, but do understand each of us is different. Your hypothesis is one possible explanation for Arun's friend's behavior.

Arun:
Coming to your million-dollar-question on your friend's puzzling preference for ARR while skipping IR, the simplest explanation is Rajan's-- provided your friend is a fanatical follower of MSV/KVM/AMR.

A second explanation is that he was fanatical in his younger years and was in "denial" re IR, but became more open as a result of various experiences over the years and was able to accept ARR much later.

There is yet another explanation--this is related to life-stage and its impact on attitudes and behavior. I cannot complete my explanation without profiling ARR's music in terms of what it has to offer your friend. (please note that this is not a discussion of ARR's best/worst--we have other threads for that.)

Fro my perspective, ARR's music falls into at least two categories.
The first category has the following ingredients:
1. light-hearted, harmless fun;
2. feet-tapping rhythm/beat;
3. innovative use of technology (sometimes so much so that it substitutes for music.)
The second category can be typified as follows:
1. soft, melodious ballads where the music is understated so as to place the lyrics in the centerstage (similar to yester-years' music);
2. good use of technology.

Now consider this:
1. When IR comes along, your friend is entrenched in his "old songs". He is already baffled by IR's innovative, experimenting, anything-goes style, and the more intricate, complex musical arrangements which need time to digest and appreciate. He most probably is at a life-stage where career/life pressures are high, and TFM has taken a back seat. So, it is easier for him to cling to the old and familiar and reject the new, giving you reasons which sound rational (same tabla beat etc.)
2. When ARR comes along a decade-and-a-half later, the same friend is at a life-stage where he is settled enough to kick up his heels, relax and have fun without all the uncertainties in personal/professional life which plague our early adult lives. ARR's music as described above is a perfect fit to this (almost) carefree, let's-have-some-fun attitude--the timing is perfect.
3. Regardless of what we may think of ARR as a composer, we all agree that he has great mastery over technology. Take a techno-buff, plug in some affluence for gadgets and gizmos like surround-sound etc., insert an ARR CD, and you have the rest of the equation.

Obviously, I don't know your friend, and have no/few datapoints, so this is just another untested theory only. If incorrect, read it as a story and let's all have a good laugh. But, music is heard, processed and felt within the context of one's life, isn't it?
From: CS (@ palo10.pacific.net.sg) on: Fri Dec 12 20:33:42 EST 1997

I dont believe in this transition - atleast for me. I grew up in the MSV-TKR era. I have also listened to GR, Sudharsanam, SMS etc. And now, towards the millenium, I still love songs from Uthama Puthiran made by GR and Naeruku Naer songs by Deva. That means, a generally accepted good music is there forever and it does not affect the socalled transition psychology. Music is something that we dont completely erase from our minds when new MDs/ songs bound to appear in the course of time. This transition may be true for other arts such as acting, playing etc. But for music-something that has to be felt in our inner souls-this transition does not occur.
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ synergy.nus.edu.sg) on: Fri Dec 12 21:23:46 EST 1997

RV, Kanchana & CS:

Regarding your comments that you didn't have
transitions, but only discoveries:

Fine for you 3. But, does that really happen to a
theevira fan who is so much hooked that
discovering and accepting a new MD is difficult?
Suppose Arun's friend had really kept away from TFM
for years because he could not accept IR, then
he was one such fan who missed out a wonderful
part of TFM! Let me also recall a comment made by
NOV: But I believe the younger IR fans (in their 20's) will find it difficult to accept anybody else until much later - maybe when someone else comes to topple ARR/Deva!
A theevira fan has obviously built a psychological
wall around, and gets hurt easily when, either
his favourite MD is attacked (rightly or wrongly)
or when the new challenging MD is being showered
with praises (deservedly or undeservedly). Even
if this category of such fans is only 5% of the
whole, it is worth discussing their psychology.
Don't you think so?
From: RV (@ 1cust96.max2.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net) on: Sat Dec 13 02:16:40 EST 1997

Satya Keerthi:

Maybe I didnt make my point clearly. I had transitions in TFM from IR-MSV:TKR-GR-KVM etc. It is just that when I got hooked into a new area e.g HFM - as an adult - I didnt hv transitions, I had discoveries. So the question that comes to my mind is: Is this "theevira rasigath thanmai" a characteristic that comes up more often as a kid/adolescent ?

As a further example, I point to my cricketing preferences in my teens where I had difficulty acknowledging the greatness of SMG vs Visvanath whereas today I just look at the innings played.

In my view, most of us these transitions. Possibly in cricket too but thats another topic altogether. I am just wondering whether these transitions originate in the so called "immaturity" of the teens.
From: RAJAN (@ proxy-107.iap.bryant.webtv.net) on: Sat Dec 13 09:38:08 EST 1997

SATYA KEERTHI:

I expected the same question....

Intha theorey-ai, america-vila poluthupoagama yosechi yeluthiathillai..!

En valkayil naan santhiththa friends parents, relatives, and other sources, moolamaga naan kanda unmaigalai thaan yeluthiullean. MSV, IR, ARR, dishum-dishum moolamaga naan yen niraya nanbargal(including their parents) are not in contact (atmost 20). Most of my friends parents are theevira MSV fans.

Isayai rasigarkal irandu vagai undu yendru naan ninaikirean:
Isayai Ketpavargal:
Appappo entha paadal hit aagiratho, athu thaan avargalukku appothaya thevaganam, they don't mind about the other things.
Allathu kurai, kindal seivargal.

Isayai Rasippavargal:
Ivargal nitchayamaaga ethavathu oru vithaththil THEVIRA (MD/Flute/violin/drums/lyrics,......)
rasigargalaaka iruppaargal.
Ivargal thamakku pidiththavai sariyaga amayavittaalum athai nooru thadavai kettavathu athai, THAAM rasikkumpadi amaithukolvaargal.
Ivargalal mattume oru paadalai akku veru aani veraga alasa mudium.

Psychology behind that is:
Thanakku pidiththavayaga irukkum poluthu RASIkkirargal matra nearaththil KETPAvargalakirargal.

Ithuthaan ennudaya theory-kku vilakkam.
Itharkkumelum explain panna yenakku aasaithan aanal, marunale yenakku SENthamilil pugalpaadi veettukku e-mail varum, anthamathiri e-mail eluthupavargalukku kasdam vaikka virumpavillai...!

Inthakalathil nalla musicai rasippavargal kuraivu,
yellam label-in(MD's name) magimaye.

Another question is how they are ... for 15 years?
Already ARR completed 6 years, still discussion is going on. So I don't think 15 years is too much.

YOU and NOV are accepting the statement "Thevira IR fans may .................after ARR/DEVA:))", Why not MSV - ARR?

I don't know which statement makes you to too much extrapolation!

Kanchana:
I am not telling ALL MSV fans are changed to....
I am telling MOST of the MSV fans......
Markettingil ulla tech. vaiththu ithai compare panni paarungalean.
Oru porulai romba naalaga virumbi, rasiththu use pannikondirukkiroam, appoluthu ......

Tail piece:
GOOD example for ketpathu, rasippathu:
Rajini padaththai nooru thadavai paarkkalam, but kamal padaththai nooru thadavai RASIKKALAAM (ex. MAGANATHI, GUNA, KURUTHIPUNAL, etc.,)
Ayyo eththanai kundu (E-mail) vilappotho?!!
From: Arun (@ internet1.ford.com) on: Sat Dec 13 11:12:52 EST 1997

Wonderful job Dr. Kancahna:

All your theories seem to fit for my friend. I thought of one more. May be that he was mad that his favorite MD's have been replaced by IR, and hated him for that so much that he would deny himself of good music, inventing some excuses for doing so.

Now, that his son is about 15, (info. that I didn't give before, sorry.) he wants to somehow connect with him that he opens himself up to enjoy what is today's music. The fact that it's not IR who is top just worked conveniently for him. (God, I hope he doesn't read this. He is very good friend of mine.) It is also true that his son is more likely to enjoy ARR's music than IR's.

- Arun.
From: CS (@ proxyf6.cyberway.com.sg) on: Sat Dec 13 18:12:46 EST 1997

Rajan:

I beg to differ from your view of seeing music as a porul (commodity). The diminishing theory of economics does not work on music. In fact it is its reverse when listening to music. More you listen to music, you will like more music. It is not the otherway around.

Sathya

As RV puts it, probably the age / immaturity makes one to be theevira or saadharana rasigan. Theevira rasigan has a mental block to accept ( I have seen lot of Rajini fans) anything that affect their idols they have in their mind. But during the course of time, 8 out of 10, begin to accept the changes. This 'theevira thanmai' is more among the uneducated (remember, MGR fans. I dont mean all MGR fans are uneducated.) at different time periods (kaala kattam). As that theevira rasigan has more responsibility to play greater role towards his / her personal, family, society lives at different ages, the theeviram in his/her rasipu thanmai fades.
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Sat Dec 13 18:21:02 EST 1997

My only theory is

Personality cult.

It applies to all aspect of Indian lifestyle - from religion to
software production.

Explantion:

MASSES.

ciao.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tb06.proxy.aol.com) on: Sun Dec 14 11:30:53 EST 1997

Arun:
Please continue to call me Kanchana. :-) I didn't want to mention the children factor for fear of it being too sensitive--I was afraid my analysis was too blunt as it is.
I can identify with the kid factor. Even tho I'm the one who introduces specific TFM/CD's into our household, the way our 10-year-old daughter clicks with ARR songs is unbelievable. She has been exposed to all TFM starting from pre-MSV/TKR eras, but she naturally gravitates toward ARR; when asked, the reason given is "listen to that beat, it's such fun!" (I get specific requests to play the Minsara Kanavu CD on the way back from school even now.) But since I like selected songs of ARR myself, this works out well--quite different from my parents who disliked IR and disliked the fact I liked IR!

Rajan:
"chenthamizh paattu" bayathai meeri neenga viLakkam koduthadharku nandri. As long as we maintain mutual respect & dignity and do not resort to personal attacks of each other or MDs/artistes, what is wrong in sharing our beliefs openly here? poatruvaar poatrattum, thootruvaar thootrattum. :-)
A question due to natural curiosity:
How do your parents explain their preference for ARR? My parents also disliked IR, but they moved away from TFM as a result, immersed themselves in carnatic music exclusively, and never came back to TFM.

Some straightforward statements which offer insightful glimpses to TFM fan behavior:
" 'Idolizing' MDs started during the IR era"--NOV (and continues on to ARR now, I guess?)
"isaiyai rasippavargaL thamakku pidithavai sariyaaga amaiyaa vittaalum adhai nooru thadavaiyaavadhu kaettu THAAM rasikkumpadi amaiththu koLvaargaL"--Rajan
"Personality cult made possible by mass (herd?) mentality"--aruLarasan

So, the MD transcends his music, for a certain % of people, after a certain level of devotion/passion is reached for that MD's music?!
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Sun Dec 14 23:21:53 EST 1997

Rajan:

This is again regarding your "skip-the-next-MD"
theory. I am not saying that it does not apply
at all to anyone. If you see my last posting
(where I was recalling NOV's statement on
theevira IR fans waiting for someone to topple
ARR/Deva) I was only referring to a small percent
(say 5%) who are of the extreme nature. (I think
NOV also was referring to such a small percentage
group when he was making that statement.) I am
basically disagreeing with your statement:
that Most MSV fans waited for someone to
topple IR until they started enjoying TFM.
If you replace Most with it
would be more appropriate. Perhaps, all the MSV
fans that you have had association with were of
the "extreme" type and so you generalized!
My experience with MSV fans (my friends, mostly)
has been quite different. In a group of 20 friends
who all loved MSV's music (actually, because of
his music in the 1960's), we all resisted IR for
a year or two, but came out of the trap and went on
to love IR's music also. I only remember a single
friend, who was such a "hard-core" fan of MSV/TKR
that he could never accept IR. I have lost touch
with him for years and so I really do not know if
he waited for all these years to become an ARR fan!
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Sun Dec 14 23:27:58 EST 1997

Please read my statement:

"If you replace Most with it ..."

as

"If you replace Most with Some it ..."
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Sun Dec 14 23:40:07 EST 1997

It would be nice if we discuss and (try-to) sort-out
issues as they arise. Apart from Rajan's
interesting "skip-the-next-MD" theory, which is
to be sorted out, I see one more.
RV raised the following question:

Is this "theevira rasigath thanmai" a characteristic that comes up more often as a kid/adolescent?

CS followed it with the comment:

As that theevira rasigan has more responsibility to play greater role towards his/her personal, family, society lives at different ages, the theeviram in his/her rasipu thanmai fades.

This 'theevira thanmai' is more among the uneducated.

Shall we discuss these?
From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Mon Dec 15 05:17:36 EST 1997

Satya Keerthi - About the theevira thanmai, I think aruLarasan summarised it in two words: Personality cult. He continued by saying that It applies to all aspect of Indian lifestyle - from religion to software production. I tend to agree with him. The need to have a sense of belonging is very strong. And what better way than to have someone to idolise? And then it becomes a cause to fight for. We have seen this happening often enough!
I will reserve my comments on the uneducated bit as I expect it to raise some blood pressures :-)))
From: Kanchana (@ ww-tc01.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Dec 15 11:04:21 EST 1997

Keerthi:

It is a known socio-psychological fact that extreme fanatical behavior is driven by idolizing/ personality cult as pointed out earlier by NOV and later by aruLarasan. The real psychology underlying such idolizing behavior is not pretty---lack of self-identity, low self-esteem, lack of a sense of belonging and lack of emotional maturity are some of the drivers of such behavior. Please note the term "emotional maturity" which is not necessarily related to chronological age or education, but could be a product of age/education for some people.

In my opinion, Rajan's hypothesis applies to these extremists only.
From: Gokul (@ p1.echostar.com) on: Tue Dec 16 01:59:37 EST 1997

Theevirathanmai stems out of unshakeable faith. The faith need not be
blind always but some times it is. Love blinds! But there has to be reasons to qualify this huge passion.
When I say I am a theevira fan
of Raja, it simply indicates the enormity of faith in his talent. This does not come out of blue without its reasons. I maintain IR is capable
of making excellent music based on the very fact that he has been making good music from the start. It does not imply that music from others is not unacceptable to me. I enjoy his work more than others.

I do not think idolising plays a major role in this scenario.

It is a simple issue of what you like and what appeals to you.

Personality cult is nothing new to this universe.
Otherwise Religions will not exist.

What will be the case if a person belongs to the
so-called "Masses" (God! Do I hate this word! Masses are obviously made of individuals and no 2 individuals are same!)
and refuse to accept music from anybody other than
his favorite MD? We would think he is so fanatic and not open minded as we expect him to be. He is deviating from the norm. We expect everyone now to accept ARR (same before for IR and numerous others).

But he is not led by the frenzy of the mass. He refuses to accept something (in his eyes) which he is not able to relate to and enjoy. He could be wrong in others opinion but he is
right in his own right.

This is what is evident when it comes to enjoying
music and other arts where bias is based on your sense of enjoyment rather than personalities.
From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Tue Dec 16 02:35:53 EST 1997

Gokul - I think you are missing a point here. No one is condemning a fan's preferred taste for IR or insisting that everyone should accept ARR. We are discussing the whats and whys of fanaticism.

IMO, bias begins when one's idol (or favoured person) cannot do any wrong! Remember, no one, but God, is perfect. Anyone else has both the good and the bad - and this includes your idol's opponent (for want of a better word)!
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Tue Dec 16 03:41:44 EST 1997

Gokul:

NOV has a point here. Of Course, the liking for an
MD starts because of a strong basis -- the attraction
to those wonderful songs. The MD gives more beautiful
songs -- one is attracted more. As this goes on, and
when the rasigan is not alert enough, that's when
he falls in the trap and starts idolizing.
An identification occurs and what happens?
Even mediocre songs produced by his favourite MD
start looking beautiful; even excellent songs
produced by other MDs start looking ordinary!
From: Bhaskar (@ dutyfree.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Dec 16 18:15:24 EST 1997

Sathiya Keerthi Sir:

There's another phenomenon that occurs to me whenever I go and buy cassettes in a shop.

I am not sure whether again this Psycology is involved during selection of albums.

Before ARR's arrival:

I used to first look at all the IR's album see which ones are good among those and select the best out of it. If I am running short of IR albums to buy then look into Old movies (MSV) Albums.

After ARR's arrival: Especially after Roja, I just bought all of ARR's Albums blindly with faith in him that he would have given good music. I used to look it IR's music only someone said that it was good.

Nowadays: When I walk into a cassette shop in Bangalore I do not see any ARR's and IR's Albums at all except a very few. All the cassettes are filled with Deva and tons of new MD's. I tend not to buy Deva's music immediately after release because most of the movies has only one or two songs good in them (with some exceptions). So I asked by friend who runs a cassette shop to record all good songs of recent TFM movies, he could easily fit all the "good" TFM songs that were released in the past six months including IR, Deva and other MD's in four D-60 cassettes.

In those 4 casettes I could reduce it to one D-90 cassette.

I generally tend not to buy new MD's unless they are exceptional. For example I never bought VIP cassette for a long time, but now I am expecting another movie from Ranjit Barot :)

Infact I bought a lot of old HMV TFM cassettes this time when I went to India than the new ones.

This might be because my music taste changes day to day and hour by hour. Sometime I feel like I need to hear feet tapping/dancing kind of songs of ARR when I am with a group of friends and sometimes when I am alone, I would like to listen to soft and melodious song from MSV and IR.

Another observation to be noted is that ARR's albums are short lived, you can listen to it for sometime say 2-3 months may be for a good album but one will loose interest very soon and will be looking for a new one. But lot of the IR's albums can be heard anytime you want. Also one can listen to MSV/TKR and AM Raaja's song you just seem to enjoy it anytime you listen to it, they just seem to be immortal. One doesn't get fedup with old songs but do get fedup with the latest ARR's very soon.

For Ex. Now I have stopped listening to Minsara Kanavu and Iruvar and started listening to Rakshagan and Monolisa. But I have always in my car hits of AM Raaja and Hits of PBS whenever I put that seems to be divine and a rush of blood flows when I hear to them :))

Do other people in this TFMDF also feels the same way or some people can hear to ARR's music anytime/always, IR's music anytime/always and no to MSV/TKR/AMR music.
From: RAJAN (@ proxy-113.iap.bryant.webtv.net) on: Thu Dec 25 10:23:35 EST 1997

What happened to this thread?
Innum 2 naalaikku yethuvum type pannavillai yendral archive -vukku poyidume intha thread!
From: Bhaskar (@ ww-tc02.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Dec 27 00:08:03 EST 1997

Raajan:

Naan kashtapattu ivvalavu neram yosichhu type pannadhu waste-aa pocchu. Naan ezhudunadhakkaparom yaarume endha comments-um kodukala :( Sari, Atleast indha thread archives pogaamal irukka neenga kaettadhu nalladha pocchu.

Ippo ennavo, neenga, naan mattum dhaan TFMla irukkura maadiri thonradhu, mattravargal ellam Christmas mattrum, New Year kondada sendru vittargal pola :))
From: RV (@ 1cust114.max2.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net) on: Sun Dec 28 16:26:26 EST 1997

Bhaskar::

Actually, I wasnt sure whether the comments on ARR's musical talents or lack was appropriate in this column. So no comments.;-)

And where is everybody ? Maybe time for Satya Keerthi to sum up ?
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Wed Dec 31 02:53:47 EST 1997

Bhaskar:

I am really sorry. I somehow completely missed
reading your posting of Dec 16th.

I don't see your preferences and their changes over time
to be due to any psychological reason. In fact,
to me you appear to be free of any psychological
pressure that a theevira fan typically has!

Aduththu edhaip patri discuss seyvadhu? I am hoping
that others like Amar will also convey their
comments on the psychology issue. It would be
interesting to find out the various reactions
of the MDs during the transition periods. For
example, how did MSV feel when IR came and
replaced him at the top? (Srikanth?) What were IR's reactions
when ARR came into the TFM scene? Does anyone
remember these reactions? If so please share
the info with us here.
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Thu Jan 1 22:34:41 EST 1998

Let me ask a question on psychology which is very relevant to this
discussion forum. Let's take a participant of this forum who is a
theevira fan of MD X, who says MD Y is not bad and MD Z is horrible.
After several months of active participation with fans of X, Y and Z
on numerous topics, what happens ti his/her attitudes?

Does he/she think:

Oh I have come to know and appreciate some great songs by Y and/or Z.
They are better than what I originally thought. Also, there are many
songs where even X has done a mediocre job... etc.

OR

Other fans of X here have impressed further on my poor views about
Y and Z. X is even better than I thought. Oh, how awful and stupid
these fans of Y and Z are... etc.

Without giving any personal comments we can simply discuss, in a
general way, as to which kind of transition, we think, has occured to
the participants of this forum.
From: RV (@ 1cust8.max2.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net) on: Fri Jan 2 02:04:58 EST 1998

I never had much interaction with "theevira" fans before I discovered this forum as I kept moving around a lot in my childhood. The only time when I was a "theevira" fan of IR, every friend of mine was a "theevira" fan of IR. When I discovered old TFM ( MSV-TKR and GR - my reverse transition ) I looked down upon all "theevira" fans of IR as having not enough musical sense; hence I never argued with these fans. My attitude was while IR turned in good ones, GR/MSV-TKR were infinitely better and there is no comparison. I never argued much with the "theevira" fans as I didnt expect them to understand my attitude. I felt superior to these musical philistines and their fads. Also, I found a couple of guys who shared my attitude and a great friendship sprang between us. ;-)

So all the changes that took place - my initial high assessment of IR, MSV-TKR, GR, ARR and the eventual realization that all these people were not as good as I expected them to be - happened on my own. Maybe thats why I never had any problems in reassessing. Frankly, I expect these people to score a century everytime. ;-)

At the risk of boring people to death, I am going to state my reactions to various MDs.

1. IR : The first MD I fell in love with. As time went on, I realized that he is taking too many movies and is not giving the attention each movie demands. He started to concentrate on big banners, pet projects. stars etc. Several duds came up. Also some of his numbers suffered from very poor lyrics - "Enna Paattu Paada", "Oram Po" were something I really hated.

2. MSV-TKR: I love these people. In every movie that I know of, they hv come up with at least one good number. As Sathya Keerthi remarked once, they of course had to do may be 10-15 movies a year.

3. GR: GR was a revelation. I hated carnatic music and GR and later Madurai Mani Iyer made me realize that this is a beautiful school of music. But as I saw more GR movies, I realized that he turned in several unimpressive numbers and brought my opinion down by a notch or two.

4. ARR: When he came in, he brought a burst of originality with him that was refreshing and attractive. Of course, being away from TN ensured that I heard only the good songs. I loved the way the saxaphone came alive in Duet. ( I hate most of the lyrics in this movie, though. ) After hearing a lot, I think he is brilliant technician. And his one innovation is the respectability he has given to the "saavu molam" - the beat you hear when a corpse is being carried out the burning ghats.

It is only in TFM which I discovered a couple of months ago, I hv had discussions on my viewpoints. Thats why I love TFM site. ;-)
From: Srikanth (@ tick.dsddhc.com) on: Fri Jan 2 13:52:50 EST 1998

Hi Guys,

As far as MSV is concerned he had not considered IR his rival or enemy...
though his popularity came down due to Raja's Growth....

He considers Raja's score really good,
I have heard him praising Raja for
"Valai OOSAI " in sathya....
He mentioned " it was most different tune that he has heard his life...."

Similary the "Kozal udum kannan" in Mella thirandau kadvan was tuned by MSV and the orchetra score was done by Raja,
This is because Raja mentioned, I cant set a tune better than the Melliasi Manner, I dont dare to do it. I would love to set an orchestration for the composition by him.

As far as I know among MSV/RAJA there is no direct personal ego clashes,,,, they have worked more than 3 filims together...
In fact MSV has done background music for few Raja filims when Raja was very busy...
I could remember one movie staring satyaraj.
"vinducha kalyanam"...

They respect each others talent...

But I dont know about AR...he gave a open interview and rubbed on the wrong side of MSV..
AR was once playing for RAJA,
There is a famous industry rumor, that IR AND AR HAD FIGHT and AR challanged IR that he will throw out Raja one day in future.....
I dont know how far this is true....

I feel Matured musicians dont have hatered...
AR is still young, might get "Vivekam" when he becomes little old...

As far as my view goes Ar has done some goods things , he improved the standard of recording...
his recording matches world's standards..
People say he uses electronics,
but to use that, one needs skill , controling those gadges is not easy....I am saying this with experiance.Try to record a song with BGM/Chours etc.....it is a pain to get that quality ....sleepless nights/days ...
Programing a drum pattern in a drum machine needs skill...Sampling a sound needs skill, AR uses new sounds, he samples them personally
though he buys many.He works on the sound...
He has bought 100% tempo accuracy and 100%
perfect rythm sense....He has made masses to think about recording quality.." I have seen villagers in outskirts of Madurai asking the cassette dealer about the recording quality before buying them.."

As somebody said
"IR is a musicain and AR is a technician."
I belive in it and take the good in both...

This will not bring my faith on MSV...
I am a great fan of MSV -- No one can do the song "Ragangal pathinaru" in "thilu mullu"
it is not in any perfect set Raga but still it is very melodies, similary "Kana kannum kangal" in "agni sachi" master piece.

My friend Prasana often says this to me .
There two kinds of musician in the world...
One does music as a service - he earns out it ,
he is reatailer, has margin...etc..
Eg:Deva

Other one does music for the love for music...He is not bothered about a return from the music he makes...
(Many are there in Western, especially in Jazz)

Our IR is blend ..he knows to be a member of both the cult..

(Parasana you will find his name in AR movies for Guitar playing, one of the few musicians who can play hardcore rock, Hardcore Jazz and "Agmark Carnatic music" on guitar professionaly on the stage - very talented person)

Thanks

Srikanth
From: Gokul (@ p1.echostar.com) on: Fri Jan 2 20:00:11 EST 1998

Srikanth

Is this Prasanna from IIT, Madras the famed
Guitarist?
From: srikanth (@ 44.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Sun Jan 4 00:51:07 EST 1998

Hi Gokul

Yes, He is from IIT...

Srikanth
From: Gokul (@ p1.echostar.com) on: Mon Jan 5 19:50:07 EST 1998

Excuse us for this small digression,

Srikanth,

This guy Prasana played in the rock competion during our college (KREC)
festival (I think it was '90). The way he did fusion (Blues with
Carnatic)
was awesome. I was very much impressed. I am kinda
sorry to see him in ARR's group (because I would
not want a person of his calibre pandering to
the current Poppish Junk of TFM).
From: srikanth (@ 36.minneapolis-07.mn.dial-access.att.net) on: Mon Jan 5 22:59:54 EST 1998

Hi Gokul
He is not with Ar, he plays for him at times
Have you heard the song "July madam vanthal" in pudheeya mugam all the guitar scores are by him..
and the guitar piece in "Samba Samba" in Love birds (in raga bhilahari) was played him,,

I have had few opportunites to work with him in recordings, I have sequenced his score...
fun working him...

srikanth
Srikanth
From: Amar (@ worf.qntm.com) on: Wed Jan 14 17:13:16 EST 1998

Hi, just to keep this topic alive, I am posting this note.

I am almost done with my thought on this topic which I will check one last time before posting it tomorrow.

Thanks!( Keerthi, sorry for this delayed response )
From: Amar (@ worf.qntm.com) on: Mon Jan 19 17:37:26 EST 1998

Hi Keerthi, sorry for the very-delayed response.

Muthalil, yerkkanavey intha topicil koorappatta irandu "analogy"ai
patri comment pannivittu, piragu ennudaiya sontha sarakkai eduthu vidurein.

Someone said earlier in this posting that
"Pondaatti Evvalavuthaan Nanraaga Cook Panninaalum, Amma Kaimanam Varuma?"

Based on that analogy, We can divide the people into 2 categories:
1. "Ennathaan Pondatti Arumaiyaaga Samaithaalum, Amma Kaimanam Varuma? Enbathupol Keitpavargal

2. "Yaar Samaithaalum, Nalla Irunthaal Rusichu Saappittu Paaraattum" Manappaanmai Ullavargal

Isai vishayathilum athey maathiri aatkalai nammaal paarkkamudigirathu.

1. Thanakku piditha MDyin isaiyaithavira matra MDs evvalu arumaiyaaga Isai Amaithaalum, avatraiyellaam yerkkaathu othukkubavargal

2. Yella MDs isaiyil ulla Nalla, Arumaiyaana Isaiyai, Paadalgalai Rasikkum Manappaanmai Kondavargal.

#1 vagaiyai sernthavargalai "Theevira Visirgal" yenru kollalaam.

******

Atheypol, matroruvar intha topicil, "One Generation Gap Theory"yai patri ezhutiyirunthaar; Athu oruvagaiyil poruthamaagavey enakku thonrugirathu.

My mother-in-law used to be very strict with her daughter & son. Romba Payangaramaaga Khobam Varumaam; Pasangalukku Semma Adhi Vizhumaam. Yaar thavaru seithaalum, irandu peirukkum Adhi Kedaikkumaam. Avarey, ippo hannudaiya grand-daughter yethaavathu thavaru seiyya, enn manaivi thitha aarambithaal, "Vittuduma, Paavam Kuzhanthai" yenru support pannugiraargal.

See, what a generation gap does!!!

Our topic is not exactly similar to this. Namma topicil, Theevira Visiriyaaga Ullavargal thangal Abhimaana MDyai Veezhthi Vetrivaagai Soodum Puthu MDyai Verukka Aarambithu, Eppada Ivan Saaivaan? Yenru Kaathirunthu, Adutha Generationil Matroru Puthiya MD Ivanai Veezhthi Vetrivaagai soodumbothu, Antha Puthiyavanai Yetrukkolgiraargal.

Thannudaiya Abhimaana MDyai Veezhthiyavan Veezhvathil Oru Thirupthi; Avanai Veezhthiyavani Thannudaiya MDyin Mariyaathaiyai Kaathavanaaga Yenni Yetru Kolgiraargalo Yennavo? Athanaalthaan Oru Generation Gap Therigiratho Yennavo?

So, it is possible that such a category of people also exists in the world.

Amma Paatti aagumbothu yeirbadum Generation Gap, Vayathaavathil Mellow-down Aavathaal Yeirpaduvathu.

Theevria-Visiri Vishayathil Yeirbadum Generation Gap, Pazhi-Vaangal Unarvil Yeirpadum Unarchi; Pazhitheerthavanukku Kodukkum Angeegaaram.

******

Yenakku Ninaivu Therinthu Naan Paartha Muthal Padam, "Kuzhanthaiyum Deivamum" Aduthu Paarthathu, "Enga Veettu Pillai". Irandum Antha Chinna Vayathil Yennai Kavarnthathukku Isai Oru Mukkiya Kaaranam.

Anrumuthal Inrumurai Naan Pala Padangalai Paarthuvittein, Parpala Paadalgalai Kettuvittein. Anraiya MSV-TKS paadalgal yerpaduthiya oru impact verentha kaala paadalgalilum yerpadavillai. Inrum antha paadalgal ovvonraiyum keitkumbothu "Yetho Ninaivugal, Yethetho Kanavugal" manathil "pilim" kaaattum. Malarum Ninaivugalaal Manathil Yethanai Yethanaiyo Unarchigal. Avai Athanaiyum Pasumarathaani Bhimbhangal!!!

Atharkkuppin, appadippatta oru paathippu orusila IR paadalgalil yenakku yerppattullathu, that's all.

1976il Yen Akkavukku Valaikaappu Pannivittu, yengal kudumbathinar and some friends, "Annakkili" padam paarkka poyirunthoam. Antha padappaadalgal bayangara hits! But, yen manathil oru kaayam. MSV-TKR( mostly MSV )yai manathaara yetrukkonda yennaal IRin puthiya hit paadalgalai mathikka mudiyavillai; yetrukkolla manamillai.

You must notice one thing here: Aarambathilirunthey MSV isai amaikkumbothu pala thiramaiyaana Isai-Amaippaalargal irunthanar; avargalum parpala arumaiyaana hit paadalgalai koduthanar. Appadi irukkaiyil, IRin paadalgal 1976il oru kalakkathai, oru salasalappai yein yeirpaduthavendum? Yenenil, antha samaiyathil MSVyin isai amaippil oru downward trend yerppattu Irunthathu. Sumaaraana Paadalgalai mattumey MSV koduthukkondiruntha neram athu. Athanaal, appothu vanthu nalla isaiyai IR koduthabothu, TFM avarai vaari anaithukkondathu.

Oru puthiyavar, namathu abhimaanavarai "dethrone" pannugiraar yenraal, antha samayam namathu abhimaanavar is "vulnerable" yenru therigirathu. MSV peakil irunthabothum, pala pazhaya, puthiya isai amaippaalargal arputhamaana pala paadalgalai koduthirukkiraargal. Like KVM, V.Kumar, Vijayabhaskar, MBS, Shankar-Ganesh. But, appozhuthu MSVyum hit paadalgalai koduthuk kondirunthaar.
So, avargalaal, athigapacham, "co-exist" panna mudinthathey thavira, MSVyai kavizhkka mudiyavillai. Athey MSV, konjam konjamaaga tharam thaazhnthu, thalai-kuninthu, nilai-sarinthu, ghavanam-sithari irukkumbothu vantha oru thriamaiyaana puthiyavar, IR, avari elithaaga "dethrone" panna mudinthathu.

Aanaalum, keezhey kaviznthaalum meesaiyil mann ottaaatha, migaththeevira rasigargalaal athanai yetrukkolla midyavillai! Yennaalum Iyalavillai! IRin paadalgalil "Sorkutram", "Porul kutram", "athu sariyilai", "ithu sariyillai" yenru kutram kurai koorikkondey irunthein, athanaiyum uthathalavil. Ullathukku Unmaiyai Yetrukkollum Pakkuvamillai. The Brain Knew but the Heart was Skewed.
Athu yenenru enakku puriya maattengirathu.

Ithu Isai Amaippaalar vishayathil mattum illai, veru pala vishayangalilum yenakku therinthavarai Unmai. Yenakku TMS, P.Susheela yenraal uyir. Avargal Paattukkaagavey pala "kuppai" padangalaiyum naan chenru paarthirukkirein. SPB vanthu pugazh adainthabothu, TMSin pugazh kuraivathai yennaal yetrukkolla mudiyavillai. Atharkku SPBthaan kaaranam yenru thavaraaga ninaithukkondu, SPByai veruthu, othukki vanthein. "Tamizh Ucharippu" sariyillai; Romba Romba Westernize pannugiraar. Sivaji, MGRukku suit aagalai. Athu Sariyillai, Ithu Sariyillai yenru kurai paadikkondeyyirunthein. But, soon I realized that the demise of TMS was not caused by SPB but by TMS himself. Old age, cracked voice, non-suitability to the new and the young actors caused TMS voice to be out-of place, awkward and bad. At the same time, SPB had a great voice, better modulation capability, a good knowledge of english and that helped his newer generation of songs to sound better and more appropriate for the
younger generation of actors.

I faced a similar situation with P.Susheela when S.Janaki bouyed by IR's music became the dominant female playback singer. Romba kashthamaaga irunthathu. But, reality sunk in and had to reluctantly accept the fact that life goes on and changes are inevitable.

Similar things happened to me in regards to the Lyricist ( my fav: kannadasan ), actors( MGR, Sivaji ) and so on.

IR, MSVyai replace pannina samaiyam, kutram kurai kandupidippatharkkaagavey naan niraiya IR paadalgalai keitka aarambittein. Yethavathu oru padam flop aaguma? IRin isai sariyillai yenru vimarsanam varuma yena yengikkondey irunthein. But, unmaiyil IRin thiramai, isai-puratchi, puthumaigal yenru parpala vishayangal yennai konjam konjamaaga kavara aarambithana.

Antha samayathilthaan naan US vanthuvittein. Atharkkappuram Aangilappaadal theeviramaaga keitkka aarambithuvittein. Avvapppoathu, Sathya Keerthiyin thayavil pazhaiya paadalgalai keittu magizhnthu vanthein. Then, orunaal, ennudaiya friend ruvan keittukkondiruntha "Payanangal Mudivathillai" songs yennai kavarnthathu( atharkkul oru maturity-yum vanthuvittathu ). IRin
thriamaiyai, isaiyai, muzhumaiyaaga rasikka aarambittein. 1987il muthal muraiyaaga India chenrabothu aarambithu, inru varai kittathatta aayairam casettes-CDs collect pannivittein. Innum thaagam theeravillai.

Nalla paadalgalai yaar koduthaalum rasikka vendum yenra manappaanmai vanthu vittathu.

"Aaravaara Peigalellaam Oadivittathada;
Aalayamani Oasai Nenjil Koodivittathada;"

IRin isaiyaal meilum meilum kavarappattu, IRin parama rasiganaanein.

IRin cassetteai nambi vaanghi keitkka mudinthathu; and, if not all, most of the songs will be superhits yenra nambikkaiyum veen poanathillai. Aanaal, early 90'sil vantha sila padangal antha nambikkaiyai thagartherinthana. Chey! ivvalavuthaagaa IRaal kodukka mudinthathu yenra yerichal yerppathathu. IRukku TFMukku isaiamaikkum aarvam kurainthuvittathaaga yenakku pattathu.

Yeirkkanavey MSV vishayathil sonnathupoala, IR kaalathilum pala MDs nalla paadalgalai koduthukkondirunthaargal. MDs like Chandrabose, S.A.Rajkumar, Maragathamani, Aadithyan, Deva, avvappozhuthu MSV, Shankar-Ganesh, matrum peyar sariyaaga theriyaatha MDs yenru palar. Aanaal, IR athiyarputha isaiyai vazhangikkondirunthathaal, yentha MDyaalum IRai asaikkamudiyavillai. But, IRin tharam thaazhnthu irunthasamaiyam vantha puthiyavar-ilampuyal ARRin new-wave music captured the hearts of TFM audience. Again, konja naatkkal yenakku IRin veezhchiyai, ARRin Pugazhai yetrukkolla muidyaamal satru thadumaarinein. But, very soon recovered to enjoy ARR's music as well as IR's music whenever they offer the good ones.

Aanaal, sameebha kaalamaaga IRin isaiyil oru marumalarchi thoanrugirathu, MSVyin vishayathil illaatha oru Arputham. That only assures that IR is a genius and has a lot more to offer. Orutharai matroruvarukkaaga veruthu othukki iruppathu, "Kulathumeiley kovichukkittu yethaiyo kazhuvaamal
vanthavan" kathaiyaagathaan mudiyum; Nashtham Namakkutthaan. Ullathai Ullam Sollavendum, Nallathai Naadey Poatrvendum. Inthappakkuvam 10 varudangalukku munnaal yenakkillai;

So, I can understand why the current younger generation feels about IR and ARR. Time will change and so will the attitudes.

Nalla isaiyai rasikkavedumthaan, aanaal, puthiyavarin isaiyai rasikkumbothu pazhaiyavarai mattamthatti pesuvathuthaan sariyillai.

Yennudaiya Mama oruthar who is about 70 years old now has always been a fan of TFM songs and music. Anthakkaala G.Ramanathan, MSV, TKS, KVM, AMR muthal inthakkaala IR, ARR, Deva yena ellaarudaiya isaiyaiyum rasikkiraar. Ainthu Varudangalukku munbu naan chennai senrirunthapoathu, Avar orey aaravaaramaaga "Kaathalan padam paarthiya? Yenna Music, Yenna Dance, ARR oru kalakku kalakki Irukkiraar! Kandippaaga Paarkkavendiya Padam" yenraar. Yenakku migavum aachariyamaaga irunthathu. Athey maathiri, 10 varudangalukku munbu naan chenrirunthapaothu, Avarey Ilayarajavai "Aahaa, Ohoh" yenru pugazhnthu, "Agni Natchattiram Paarthiya? Thalapathy Paarthiya? Yenna Music, Yenna Songs" yenru koorinaar. Avaraal nalla isaiyai yaar koduthaalum rasikka mudinthathu. Vayathu vithiyaasamo, vayathaaghivittathey yenra guilty feelingso illaamal Avar vaazhnthukkondirukkiraar. That's the way it should be!

Yennudaiya brother-in-law( who is currently in US doing Ph.D in Genetics ) has been an ardent fan of one and only MD, IR, as far as Music is concerned. He has never bothered to listen to nor appreciate older songs of MSV or other earlier MDs or even later MDs. He is a born musician who has learnt to play quite a few instruments all by himself and he can compose Music now. Yenakku
IRai patriya pala viyakkavaikkum vishayangalai sonnathey avanthaan. Like, IRin BGM scoring ability, that he is the only MD in the whole world who can write the complete notes for a BGM score without ever trying it out. That his compositions range over complex Raagams; that he has skillfully adapted, blended, experimented with Raagams in unusual, non-traditional realms. And, blah blah and blah blah and blah blah! He is one reason why I became a die-hard fan of IR. His description of IR's composition for songs like "Raakkamma Kaiyai Thattu" from "Thalapathy", "Kanmani Anbodu Kaathalan" from "Gunaa", "Oh, Butterfly" & "Puthu Rootulathaan" from "Meera" and quite a few others are memorable. He is the one who had explained to me the rather complex details of music, composition, etc., that I don't think I can do justice in reproducing here. Anyway, you get the point!

But, the same person is now an ardent fan of ARR to the point he doesn't listen to IR's songs at all. He claims that IR is from a different school of Music and that ARR is from the school of Music which can follow the current trend and cater very adepthy to the current generations. He points out that ARR has touched such levels in "Bass Guitar", "Hard Rock Electric Guitar", "Jazz Music" etc. like never before by any Indian MDs including IR. He claims to be able to relate to ARR better than to IR. He agrees that IR is the only Genius that he had known but points out that either IR does not have it or refrains from getting into such areas of Music as ARR. Of course, in the recent times, he had liked some songs of "Siraichaalai", "Periya Kudumbam", "Veera" etc. but is no longer interested in IR's kind of music. I find it hard to explain but such is the transition.

My niece is a college student in Madras. I remember her enjoying songs like "Mathura Marikkonzhunthu Vaasam" from "Enga Ooru Paattukkaaran" 10 years ago. Now, she likes all the "Pop Albums" besides ARR songs. She does not even give any credit to IR's songs, except a very few songs. They don't even want to talk about IR. I feel that maybe it is considered a "stigma" to talk about MDs like IR, with one's friends and that students should only talk about ARR. I can undestand the logic that younger generations want only to relate to young MDs and to current,modern, trends.

Silar, tharpozhuthu keikkum IR paadal nanraaga irunthaal, udaney, "Chey, IR yenraal IRthaan, yeppadi music poattirukkiraar. ARR, Deva yellaam waste! Chumma, english vaarthaigal, damaal, dimeel music, angirunthu ingirunthu copy adikkirathu; yenna pozhappu" yenru oru kooppaadu. Innoru naal, ARRin iniya paadalai keitkkumbothu, "ARR yennama Isai amaithirukkiraar. Evvalu freshaa irukku; IR innamum antha pazjaiya styleil, dappaankuttu, tablavai thattikkondu paattu paadikkondirukkiraar. IR avvalvuthaan, ini theravey maattaar" yenru vasai paaduvaargal. Ippadi "pachondhi" vagaiyil silar.

Enakku therintha friend oruthan eppavum TFMai mattamthattikkondey iruppaan. Hindi allathu English paattukkal mattumthaan avanukku pidikkum. MSV music poadumbothu "athu sariyillai, ithu sariyillai" enru sollikkondey iruppan. I remember one day, when we both were in his house and this song "Inbhamey Unthan Peir Penmaiyo" from "Ithayakkani" was on the radio. In one of the interludes, there is a beautiful trumpet music and I heard him say, "Ada, Trumpet yellaam namma aalungalukku varuma?" But, I could see that he was impressed by that piece of Music by MSV but would not accept it. This reminds me of the famous dialogue in "Kaathalikka Neramillai" where Kanchana & Rajasri always say, "We don't watch tamil movies, we only watch english movies" and Nagesh will respond in a cynical voice, "Unalaiyellaam we don't watch english movies, we watch only tamil movies" yenru solla vaikkirein". Antha maathiri oru unmaiyaana nilamaiyai TFMukku kondu vanthavargal, Oaralavukku MSV, TKS, KVM but major credit goes to Ilayaraja.

So, I feel I have seen different kinds of transitions; transitions based on strong beliefs, transitions based on fanaticism, transitions with aging, transitions based on ages, open-minded, natural transitions that make people appreciate changing music as new trends set in, transitions like fads, close-minded-non-transitions, etc. So, I feel there is no one definition for any "psychology" of transitions.

I rest my case!
From: RV (@ nat-20.avanticorp.com) on: Tue Jan 20 15:33:59 EST 1998

Amar: Romba arumaiya unga transitiongalai vivaricchu irukkenga.

Oru Kelvi: TKS yaaru ?
From: Amar (@ worf.qntm.com) on: Tue Jan 20 17:01:42 EST 1998

RV:
Athu TKS alla, TKR( TK Ramamoorthy ) - Sorry!

Thanks for reading my long posting and commenting on that!
From: gopal (@ 1cust177.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Tue Jan 20 17:04:08 EST 1998

Interesting and good one Amar.
From: Kanchana (@ ww-to04.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Jan 20 17:26:45 EST 1998

Amar:
A detailed analysis which actually reflects aspects from the other transitions discussed earlier. Can serve as a summary for this thread.
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ synergy.nus.edu.sg) on: Wed Jan 21 03:27:11 EST 1998

AmarEsA:

IvvaLavu naaL engaLai wait paNNa vachchaalum, oru
azhagaana analysis koduththu dhooL kiLappittE!
70 vayadhu mama, niece and b-i-l patriyum sonnadhaRkku
thanks. (Everyone in this forum knows your Love-
good-music-wherever-it comes-from attitude;
looks like you've inherited this from your mama.)
Adhu sari, unnOda b-i-l eppadi IR-->ARR transition
aanaar endru sariyaaga sollalaiyE? He has stopped listening to IR songs? puriyalayE?
You mean the new songs by IR?

Unnidam 1000 cassettes/CDs collection-aa? AmmaadiyOv!

I agree with Kanchana. Your analysis is a nice
round-up of the discussions in this topic: especially
the general comments you've made at the beginning
of your analysis.
From: Amar (@ worf.qntm.com) on: Wed Jan 21 10:29:54 EST 1998

RV,Gopal,Kanchana & Keerthi:
Thanks for your comments on my posting. Athaan aarambathileyey sonneiney, vittaal ennudaiya ennangalai koottikkondey iruppein - such is the topic. Velai busyyaaga irunthathaal konja naal TFM pakkamey varamudiyavillai. Antha samayathilum konjam konjamaaga intha analysisai develop panni kadaisiyil post pannivittein. Yes, I could have written some more, but, this is a never ending story.

Oru mukkiya vishayathai ezhutha ninaithu maranthu vittein. MSV meil yenakku entha alavukku patruthal irunthathu yenbatharkku oru uthaaranam: enn manathai purinthukkonda yennudaiya kudumbathinar enn wedding receptionukku MSVyin Mellisai Katcheriyai Arrange panniyirunthaargal( that was in 1988 ). I was thrilled to see MSV performing with L.R.Easwari, "Thavil" Murugesan, Poorani, et al. all those songs that I had enjoyed in my life. Oh, what a feeling!

Keerthi, ennudaiya B-I-L yein IR->ARR transition aanaar yenbathu yenakkum sariyaaga theriyavillai. But, let me explain a little more:

1992 he came to US and at that time he was still a fan of IR. In US, he did not get the opportunity to listen to TFM at all. But, then, somehow, somewhere he had heard "Roja" songs and something must have clicked. He saw something in those songs and so he started following ARR's music. Even, then he did not like all ARR songs. In the next ARR movie "Puthiya Mugham", the only song he liked was "July Maatham Vanthaal Jodi Seirum Vayathu" and the flamingo guitar interludes. Then he pretty much liked all the songs from "Thiruda Thiruda" and some songs of "Gentleman". I think the songs of "Kaathalan" was the turning point for him. I know how much he enjoyed the "Bass Guitar" interludes in those songs. Yennudaiya systemil poattu poattu keitppaan and he also showed me what he meant. By then, IR's songs were already sounding unusually of low-quality and hence, he stopped listening to IR's songs. Wheneer I show him the new albums of ARR, he does not like all of them. As far as I can remember, he had only liked "Bombay", "Iruvar", "Minsaarakkanavu" & "Musthafa Musthafa" from "Kaathal Desam" - nothing else( not even "Indian" songs nor "Muthu" songs ). He never ever liked Hindi songs and the only exception was "Rangeela" songs by ARR.

When I look at these songs of ARR that he likes, I can find great instrumentation using "Bass Guitar", "Electric Guitar", "Drums" as the special aspects that could have appealed to him. Since, he is also composing with "loop-bits" available in US, I can understand how he feels about somebody(ARR) doing the same thing in a much better way than had ever been done in IFM and that could be why he likes ARR's songs.

When I say he stopped listening to IR's songs, I mean he is not interested in the newer IR songs. I know he still loves "Oh Butterfly" song from "Meera", "Raakkamma Kaiyai Thattu" from "Thalapathy", "Mouna Raagam" songs, etc. Recently I showed him the songs from "Devathai" hoping he would appreciate the new orchestration that IR has done, but he did not like them. The only song that he thought IR has done better was "Oru Naal, Antha Oru Naal" which he thought was very well composed.

I know when he heard the songs from "Veera" and "Periya Kudumbham", for a moment, he thought those songs were by ARR and was surprised that IR was the composer. He still says IR is a genius but feels that he can relate to ARR better than to IR because ARR does something similar to what he is trying to do. He feels IR is more classical-oriented along the lines of "Beethoven" et al. and ARR is very contemporary. The next time I see him, I will show him the songs from "Kaathalukku Mariyaathai" and see how he responds.
From: Mukund (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Wed Jan 21 19:11:52 EST 1998

Guys,

I have been following this thread all along bu
found it too busy to reply these days. Sorry to
barge in this way. Pertaining to original topic
of discussion - Do you know why there is so much
comparison coming up w.r.t IR and ARR and why is it so difficult for IR fans to accept ARR?

Because even though ARR has agreed in the interviews that IR is a genius, he has not mentioned even once that he likes IR music.
He does not have to like all aspects of IR's
music, but isn't there atleast one aspect of
IR's music which he likes ?

NO !!!

He mentioned long back in Anantha Vikatan that he liked MSV, pre MSV music, Rajendar etc. as far as TFM goes, but IR did not find mention there. This pissed me off badly.

Because only at that point like everyone else I
was beginning to appreciate ARR for the freshness he brought out to TFM and I was also happy in a way, because this way monopoly would not exist. But to brush off the 20 year span of music just like that was very disheartening.

After this point I was very critical of ARR trying
to find out his repetitions and copies from day 1.
Simultaneously I started listening to a lot of IR
songs and now I am firmly moulded in as an IR fan.

But compare the same situation to MSV-IR transition. IR honestly agreed that MSV was great
in producing tunes !!!. IR gave MSV the respect due for his senior. This pacified both their fan groups. This probably also happened because MSV would have been a part (indirectly thro TFM) of IR's musical growth. He might have admired MSV in
his early days and he stayed honest to that feeling till last.

To me NOW, it would take eternity for ARR's music to come close to my heart even though I do listen to them and appreciate good ones, whereas I immerse myself in IR every other day.

I hope I do have a point in there.

Bye,
Mukund
From: Amar (@ worf.qntm.com) on: Mon Jan 26 11:06:14 EST 1998

Keerthi:
Ennudaiya irandaavathu postingkku( ungal keilvikku konjam vilakkam kodukka munainthu ezhuthiyathu ) ungal bhathilaiyey kaanoam, unnim padikkalaiya?
From: Bhaskar (@ ww-ta02.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Jan 26 22:49:52 EST 1998

Amar:

Ivvalavu post pannengala, naan innikku dhaan paarthaen, romba nanraaga ezhudhi irundheenga.

Naanum pachondhi dhaan, aanal neenga sona style-il alla, IR nandraaga isai amaithaal andha paadalgal kaetpaen, adhae samayathil ARR, Deva, mattra yaarum nalla paadalgal pOttaalum avargal isaiyayum kaetppaen :-)

"Thoppigal" of to you :-)
From: vijay (@ ryan.ece.sc.edu) on: Mon Jan 26 23:39:48 EST 1998

mukund,
i agree completely with u.i have read somehere that ARR himself was a keyboard player for raaja once.so he should have definitely noticed some finer points about composing music.but in interviews he does not make even the slightest mention about them.
ego problems?as u said IR and MSV have ben good friends.MSV has publicly kissed 'mottai'
and has appreciated him.they have even composed music together.

the other reason that sparks off the debate of
ARR vs IR is perhaps the undue publicity that ARR has been getting today.IR for all his melodious compositions did not get even half the publicity that rahman has got.they say that
ARR's music is divine ,that his vande matharam is an anthem for youngsters etc.i hate the media and the press for this reason.same thing with directors like shankar and manirathnam.shankar has produced trashy films,all 100% masala.in the name of giving messages he had cleverly fooled the people by resorting to cheap gimmicks like prabhudeva dance,graphics,etc. and also some vulgar dialogues in gentleman.
and a separate page in HINDU friday review was allotted to him and a big interview as if he had given some wonderful classics.

the third reason is the failure to recognize IR and award him,both by the govt. and by the people.
they have completely forgotten him but iam sure he would prefer talking with his music in the future like he has always done!

vijay
From: mannAru (@ ns.arraycomm.com) on: Wed Jan 28 01:04:00 EST 1998

Adengappa ivvalo pEr ivvalo pakkam ezhitheeteengo!
nAnum en partukku konjam ezhuthurEn. Ovvaruvarum
transitionai pathi thAn sonnAnga. nAn adhan basic
motivation pathi konjam analysis(karpanai) panrEn.(karpani period 1950-1970).aim: Different perspective.

70's la Arambicha ennoda music appreciation,
started with IR's music. Adharku mudhalla
"Ceylon thamizh chevai" kku nandri sollanum.

antha kAlathula, FM started from the Dramas and
plays. It was the person's capacity to attract
the croud. MKT -kku appadi koottam irundhuchunna
adharkku, mike -illama ellorukkum ketkira mAdiri
pAdum GAthraam irndhuchu avar kitta. Charisma
mattered in that period. (ChinnappAvinAl
antha alavukku valara mudiyalai. avarai valaravum
vidalai. adhu vera visayam)

kAlam chella chella, personal skill in - lyrics, music, play back singing ellam poyi, slowa sila per serndhu panra mAdiri Anadhu. Mudhalla music
out. appuram play back singing out. appuram lyrics out. (order
is not important. The point is they were split).
idhu thaanga change-ukku asthivAram.

PodhuvAha, Ovaruvarudaya ilamai kAlangalil
avargalukku entha pAdal kettArgalO, adhe pondra
style avar pirkAlangalileyum edhir pArkirAr.
yEmatRamadaikirAr. Pudiya pAdalgal kuppai
enkirAr. Chinna vayathil kEtta pAdalgal, nammudaya
paLLikooda vazhkayai/inimaiyAna ninaivugali
gnapagapaduthum. AdhalAl andha style manathile
oru urchagAthai kodukkum. This is the basic
motivation for the transition.

When coming to GRamanadan era, the style of
singing in carnatic ragas became popular because
of the gramaphone invasion. People no longer
need to sit for 3-5 hours in carnatic concert.
They welcomed the raga based songs in TFM.
The good old style is forgotten.

(KVM/pappa- kind of overlay period)

Then MSV came into picture. He started to mix
western instruments. That is the plug-chord
for him. Of course TMS/kannadasan/MGR/Sivaji
helped him indirectly a LOT. No doubt, he gave
very good melodies. Here lyrics took importance
and good old carnatic music is gone. Any body remember TR pAppA's music,.Marvelous ones.
Here radio started to foster the new songs.

Then IR came. IR's style is more orchestration.
and twist in melody to sound more
folky. IR used the "folky tunes" chord to
capture the market, though he has to work
a lot to really capture market. I think he
faced the toughest competition. (Becos he is
not from a music family. Some where in
pannaipuram, who knows what he can do.)
As a kid and as a teanager IR's
music really tingled my mind. Again radio
played a major role. esp. Ceylon tamizh Sevai.
But IR stayed upto his standard, he started
to give varieties. Brought music to pAmaran.
brought western classical to TFM. I guess hw
is the first and last.
unfortunately lyrics started to degrade because
of kannadasan's demise and pudhukkavidhai marabu.

It is a standard fight between my parents and
us(me and my brother) to compare IR and MSV.
(we also compared Sivagi and rajini kamal)
In that age, rajini was the hero and MGR
was the GOD. Sivaji and all useless one
who can only cry and make others cry. I really
laugh when i think about the silly fights
we had. That is childishness. Sorry off the track.

Then we all know how ARR,KR came into picture.

Now no body has the real market that IR and MSV
had. Because now, people are confused. Yes.
That is the reason. ARR has no style
of his own(no flames please - my apologies
if u are hurt) which could establish him like IR.

One thing is sure he wanted to be different
from IR, but could not withstand people's
expectations because IR already hiked that.
But he is still different. He is popular
because of arrival of satellite TV and CDs.

BharathiyAr pAdal engeyO ketkiradhu...

"mella thamizh inichakum.."

'Isai enbadhu veLLathil moozhgum'

The rise and fall of MD's is because of the
taste of the people and change of environment,
not because they ran out of stuff(including ARR/KR/Deva).

Karpanai seidha siruvan
madurai mannAru
From: Raja M (@ draco.eisi.com) on: Wed Jan 28 09:27:52 EST 1998

Great thread. I missed out reading this thread earlier ( I dont know why). I'll try to add my appreciation of tamil film music soon.

Raja
From: Raja M (@ draco.eisi.com) on: Thu Jan 29 12:10:48 EST 1998

I enjoyed reading all the posts to this thread. I could relate more to Kanchana's and Amar's views, because I belong to that period. I will digress a little, just to give you my views, based on my background.I studied in Madras and learnt Mridhangam for 4 years, before giving it up. My whole house was full of music, my mother is a carnatic singer and she still teaches music ( now living in Bombay). Those days, I really didn't enjoy classical music ( probably an overdose). I listened to tamil and hindi film music and western music. I loved MSV-TKR, MSV and IR ( the order is just based on the MDs domination in the industry). When IR came into the scene, I just went crazy and eagerly waited for his next movie release. I used to argue with friends always on IR's pakkam even though I loved the classics of MSV-TKR and MSV. As Amar mentioned, MSV also had run out of his stuff. I moved to Bombay in the early 80's and then slowly lost touch of the then current TFM. I used to enjoy IR's stuff but somehow not to the earlier levels. I had my own collection of IR's and MSV-TKR, MSV's classics which kept me going. ARR appeared in the scene, and I again got back to listening to TFM again. His earlier works were excellent. What amazed me was that even my 2 year old niece used to start dancing when mukabla played on TV. My north indian friends asked me for the tamil lyrics to ARR's hits . This was all new to me. I tried to make them listen to IR's classics, some of them really became fans of IR. The point I am trying to make is `classics' will always be remembered, talked about and enjoyed, no matter what the current market wants. What I wish is TFM should transit into better recorded, marketed and produced music and if we are lucky to have talented MDs in the years to come, we will probably see international recognition for this creative art form. " Isayile midhakkalaam edhayume marakkalaam" as TMS sang.
From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Mon Jun 15 12:46:49 EDT 1998

I find this kind of analysis exciting because people put on their thinking caps and get away from emotional mud-slinging. I have to revive this thread just to cure the virus of dispute that has spread in TFM recently.
BTW, before responses, and this applies to all threads, please read previous postings(Old Responses) or at least skim it so you know what has been said and realize the intent of the thread. I agree with much that has been said in this thread and identify with many people's views.
My own musical tranisition:
-I grew up in a huge joint-family setting in Madras with every family member adhering to a different musical taste. Although personal favorites varied, the great songs were unanimous favorites. I spent my vacations at a village in Madurai which put another spin on things. Music was always around, but my personal addiction began with the advent of IR. To me, it was a way to identify with my own generation and break away from the older generation. Also, hearing Tamizh that was easily understood must have been a big factor. The step down from Kannadhasan to Gangai Amaran's colloquialism was a perverse pleasure, a kind of in-your-face mentality towards the old stalwarts. The key in this growing addiction was the new territory that this new music was taking me--Western instruments, unpredictable jumps from the rigid stanza structure of instrumentation and tune in the previous era, and at the same time a rich rural texture that seemed to be full of earnestness and wisdom compared to the slick city life I was living.
-In my late teens I came to the US and went to this godforsaken small town in Minnesota. Very ironic for me. I was a rich city kid in a poor country who went to a poor small town in a rich country. I was stifled in every way and at that time I would have paid every cent I owned to get the latest TFM. Since TFM tapes were being sent to me from India only once in three months, I had to discover other music. I got pulled into Western Rock'n roll and began a faithful collection of Top 40 Hard Rock/Light Rock hits. During my high school and four years in college in Minnesota, I became a die-hard MTV and rock'n roll fan. I still kept up with every major IR movie meanwhile.
-Then another shift, I went to Washingtom DC for a year and got into House Music, dance club remixes, hip hop, and soul music. This expanded my influences even more and I heard sounds I hadn't encountered before.
-Then I came to California to do my Masters and by now had grown weary of most rock'n roll. Since IR had broken with VM and SPB and moved onto more and more Mano/Vaali, I listened to his newer stuff less and less, except for the occasional burst of creativity like the Mohan movies, "Sindhu Bhairavi","Chinna Thambi", "Chinna Gounder", "Kizhakku Vaasal", etc. But my musical craving led me to Jazz and Western Classical which blew the lid off anything I had listened to previously. This experience led me to Ghazals, Hindustani, Carnatic, and also the TFM classics. I began reading old Pattukottai, Kannadhasan lyrics.
-Then came ARR and he made me sit up and listen to TFM again with renewed interest.

These days I listen to all of the above being partial only to my mood, the same way I decide what to eat. I sincerely urge all of you to listen to as many different forms of music as you can just to enrich your life. Hearing a new form of music is like learning a new word. A whole new addition in your vocabulary.

I see the DFers falling into 2 main categories:
1) Fans of MDs:One thing I feel to be at the heart of "idol worship" is transferring the self's validation on to a popular figure wherein everytime that figure gets praised or condemned, the self feels gratified or distraught. And by defending the idol, the self is defending him/her self. We see plenty of examples for this in the DF and also in other walks of life, like in sports, politics, etc.
2) Fans of Music:Those of you who view music as music and appreciate or condemn each song by its own merits, do not have emotional attachment to the creator of the song, but to the song itself. This latter group gets to enjoy more music because no self-validation is taking place with regards to the rise and fall of an MD's career. Maybe group 2 arrives there with age, with exposure to more variety, or just plain balance.

But this is my Psychological diagnosis on top of all the dissertation standard material that precedes me in this thread. Please read this whole thread, folks, it felt like spending time with old friends. Very heart warming.

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