IR as a singer

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IR as a singer IR as a singer

Topic started by Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Wed Dec 3 01:46:55 EST 1997.
All times in EDT/EST +9:30/10:30 for IST.

Responses:

From: Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on: Wed Dec 3 01:48:36 EST 1997

My opinion on IR as a singer, slightly edited by Rajaram but I agree with this version too, is on the TFM IR page. I have linked it here for people who didn't know about the existence of the IR page on TFM pages. :). Let that be the starting point and lets carry on.
From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Wed Dec 3 04:55:44 EST 1997

Note to everybody: You can't view Ravi's IR as a singer if your background colour is white (like mine) Highlight the text with your mouse, and suddenly everything will dawn upon you! :-)))
From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Wed Dec 3 05:00:54 EST 1997

Quoting what somebody else had said previously, after listening (and talking about) Arun Mozhi, Ilayaraja's voice is like symphony to me...........

But seriously folks, while admitting that IR cannot sing well the average love song, he has contributed tremendously to the success of songs such as Naanaaga naanillei thaayey and Ithayam orui koayil, inspite of SPB having sang other versions of these. Also, IR's voice is a million times better than MSV's voice, which always gives me the creeps. (Is Ravi going to start another thread on MSV's voice?:-))
From: CS (@ proxyf10.cyberway.com.sg) on: Wed Dec 3 06:11:43 EST 1997

I think DEVA's voice is superior to IR. Thats probably the reason he got the title Thaen Isai Thendral. Ayyayo, Adika varatheengo.
From: shankar (@ webgate6.mot.com) on: Wed Dec 3 08:38:31 EST 1997

CS , idho vandutten......:-)
From: Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on: Wed Dec 3 11:44:06 EST 1997

NOV: I have changed the background now.
From: Ramaswamy Gireesan (@ m42.m59.big.ac.at) on: Wed Dec 3 17:27:52 EST 1997

(This is my first posting to this forum, so I am sorry for barging into the discussion like this).

In my opinion IR is fairly OK, as long as he sticks to 'gramiya' songs or sad songs. 'Janani Janani' was one classical song that he had performed exceptionally well, considering the effort he had put in to get his sanskrit pronunciation right. But consider other songs like 'Naan thedum sevvanthip poovidhu' and 'sorkkame endraalum'. Absolutely horrible, all the more because the female singer outshines him.

I read somewhere that when Banumathi approached IR for the movie Sembaruththi, she insisted that he not sing for the movie. 'Nee endhap paattum paadatheyppa, sagikkalai' or something along those lines she is supposed to have told him. IR just grinned and agreed. (It is a diff. matter that Banumathi's voice was not any tolerable either, when she sang 'sembaruththi poovu'.
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Wed Dec 3 21:28:45 EST 1997

Ramasamy

But IR did sing a beautiful song in that movie - the title song, 'kadalile ezumbura alaigaLai'. The lyrics were wonderful too -

kadal thaNNi karikkuthu kAraNam irukkuthu O mAnE
........... mInavar vErvaiyum kalakkuthu O mAnE
From: CS (@ palo6.pacific.net.sg) on: Wed Dec 3 22:13:34 EST 1997

IR used two other playback singers - Deepan Chakaravarthi and someone in the song JANANI.. JANANI. His horrible voice was nicely compensated by those two singers. Hence it became popular

I think Deva has better voice than IR. The last piece in the song, GOKULATHIL KANNA, his duet with Anuradha in the song, KANAGATHAEY MEENU VAANGI, his solo song KAVALA PADATHAE SAGODARA are nice to hear.
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Thu Dec 4 12:02:47 EST 1997

CS: In your opinion Deva's voice may be good. But let him get his pronounciation straight. Krsna krsna in Gokulaththil KaNNa was absoultely horrible.
From: Thomas (@ calc73212.oz.psu.edu) on: Thu Dec 4 12:53:02 EST 1997

Did IR not sing the song from 'Nayakan' titled "Then paandi cheemayile."? If he did I thought he did a great job with it!! The way his voice cracks added a lot of emotion into the situation of the movie and the song.
From: Ramaswamy Gireesan (@ m42.m59.big.ac.at) on: Thu Dec 4 15:49:50 EST 1997

Just remembered! IR did sing well in the song 'enna paattu paada, enna thaaLam pOda'.

Just a small digression - even though I dont approve of IR as a singer, I think he has at least the sense to select the appropriate singers for the songs. (Exceptions : selecting Jesudoss for a dappanguththu like 'vachchikkavA unna mattum nenjukuLLa', or using that new singer for 'yamunai AtrilE eerak kaatriley' - she had an absolutely horrible pronunciation.

ARR has to improve a lot in this dept., I think. Starting with chikbuk raile, or using udit narayan for 'soniya soniya', he just selects people just because their voice is different, but doesnt give a damn about whether they suit the actors/actresses or whether the singers' pronunciation is all right.

For that matter, even IR has used Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhonsle now and then. But it was only on rare occasions. It just makes you wonder ...
From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.214) on: Thu Dec 4 16:27:05 EST 1997

how in the hell can rahman think of using udit's voice and hariharan's voice in the same movie for rajnikanth in muthu.very very hard to imagine.most atrocious selection of voice.IR's voice selection of asha and lata in sathya,enga ooru paatukaaran is definitely far better and all the songs were also hits which is to be noted
unlike 'vidukathaiya' in muthu.
vijay
From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.214) on: Thu Dec 4 16:27:27 EST 1997

how in the hell can rahman think of using udit's voice and hariharan's voice in the same movie for rajnikanth in muthu.very very hard to imagine.most atrocious selection of voice.IR's voice selection of asha and lata in sathya,enga ooru paatukaaran is definitely far better and all the songs were also hits which is to be noted
unlike 'vidukathaiya' in muthu.
vijay
From: Gopal (@ 1cust69.tnt2.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Thu Dec 4 21:18:11 EST 1997

IR s voice:

1. My first love of IRs outputs.
2. Just unique.
3. Emotions packed!!
4. Voice of the soil. Rustic !!!
5. Great !!! No more words !!!

Just listen to Gaana KuyilE (Pooncholai) and Ennai thaalaatta varuvaayaa (K Mariyaadhai)
IR renders Ennai thaalaatta varuvaayaa with emotions
besides the song itself is just a landmark in his discography. Great!! Come on IR! Keep it up!!
From: shankar (@ webgate6.mot.com) on: Fri Dec 5 00:59:01 EST 1997

CS,
I am sure u r joking . Was kavalaipadade sagodara good ?? .In the pallavi he goes like "yamma yammaaaaaaa.." .Actually he tries going to high pitch and stops abruptly without reaching it . His pronunciation is also horrible. In the charanam of the same song he says "sgodaraaaa..sagodara sagodara " U can see his voice shivering !!!. It's supposed to be a soha song and I always laugh when ever I hear it.
From: RAJAN (@ proxy-117.iap.bryant.webtv.net) on: Fri Dec 5 08:32:19 EST 1997

Shankar:
CS yetho vilayattukku sonna atha poyi seriousa yeduththukittu!
From: Mukundan (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Fri Dec 5 15:01:42 EST 1997

Hi guys,

Some info on Ilayaraja's singing. In my opinion he is really a good singer.
I AM A PERSON WHO IS USED TO GIVING 'NAAN THEDUM' AND 'SORKKAME ENRAALUM' AS EXAMPLES FOR HIS GOOD SINGING CAPABILITIES.
Of course all these are subjective viewpoints.

Let me put in a list of his great songs in my opinion.

1. Kaadhal Oviyam paadum kaaviyam
2. Metti oli kattrodu
3. Sorkkame enralum
4. Janani janani
5. Naan Thedum
6. Kadaloram Kadaloram
7. Thendral vanthu theendum pothu
8. Idhayam Oru Koyil (I like IR's version more than SPB's)
9. Aalolam Padi asainthadum Kaatre
10. Intha Maan enthan sontha Maan
11. Santhana Kaatukkulle (better than SJ in this song)
12. Punnagayil minsaram
13. Antha nilaava thaan en kayila
14. Then Paandi seemaiyile
15. Kadhai Kelu Kadhai Kelu
16. Nila adhu vanathu mele
17. Kadhal kasakkuthaiyaa
18. Aru adhu aazham illai
19. Siru Ponmani asaiyum
20. Kadhal enbadhu
21. Vizhiyil vizhunthu
22. April Mayile
23. Oru Kanam oru ugamaga
24. Kannu pada poguthaiya
25. Sollal adicha sundari
26. Ooru vittu ooru vanthu
27. Paataale buthi sonna
28. Vaadi en kappa kizhange
29. Adi aathaadi
30. Poomalaiye thol serava (**** - really brilliant)
31. Paatale Buthi sonnar
32. Thulli ezunthathu - Pagal Nilavu
33. Nil Nil Nil
34. Nethu Oruthara
35. Oororama aathu pakkam
36. Eduthu naan
37. Kalyana Maalai
38. Antha vanathai pola

I have listened to all these songs so many times and enjoyed every bit of these songs. (aNu aNuvaga rasithirukkiren). If some of you in the discussion group have not listened to these songs please do so with an open mind, keeping in mind the song's situation in the movie
as well.

Bye,
Mukund.
From: Ramki (@ cs515.cs.wmich.edu) on: Fri Dec 5 16:31:01 EST 1997

IR??A singer??Mm u ppl must be kidding:)I will list his 'speeches'if someone starts a thread "Ir the narrator":))He has spoiled some of the best songs he created. Esp Geethannjali songs. All the songs had beautiful tunes but the singer was so horrible that u start hating the songs.
MSV was a better singer than IR-listen to 'unakkenne kuraichal nee oru raaja'or 'thiruppadhi malai mel erugindrai ' or 'soollathan ninaikkiren'
or 'aandavanae unnai vandhu sandhikka vendum' etc etc HE was much better in getting the correct tune and the expression and the pronounciation.

Ravi Deva krishna krishna solradhukku badhile krisna krisna nnu pronounce panraaneenga but what abt Ilaiyaraja??In the song 'Aathadi'(kadalora kavidhaigal)he says(ofcourse:))'vakkapatta nenjukkulle aega patta sandhosam".I can quote several other similar songs.
From: MPR (@ dyn07.iacc-t23.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Fri Dec 5 18:32:41 EST 1997

Ramki:

I do agree Ilayaraaja's voice is not as good. But certainly his voice is better than MSV's. To compare their singing talent(?), take the song from 'Erikanal Kaiyyum' from Yatramozhi. Both have sung the same song in two versions. hope you would have listened to that song. now tell me who is better in this song? i would say IR.

i like very much the songs IR sang in earlier 80's (90's not that much). appothu he used to sing Giramiya paadalgal and his voice is not that much Ganam(strong, weight?). later on he moved towards thaththuva paadalgal and tried to sing ganamaaga. that spoiled everything.

even now i think if he sings with his nuni naakku then it will be fine. but things won't happen like we want all the time, right??
From: MUKUND (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Fri Dec 5 18:48:16 EST 1997

Hi Ramki,

A sanskritized pron. like 'Sandhosham' would not be apt for a person born and brought up in a village. I don't think anyone else would have been as good in bringing out the gramiya flavor as much as he did.

Anyone from villages would like these songs for
the sense of identity they would feel with the
performance.

To me the gramiya accent adds beauty to the situation.

I saw Alaigal Oyvathillai recently. During one
of the scenes he had sung the background humming,
in Hindolam. He was not comfortable. But he has
come up a long way in his singing and I PERSONNALY
FEEL PRESENT DAY IR IS BETTER THAN OLD DAYS.

BYE,
MUKUND

Bye,
Mux
From: CS (@ proxyf7.cyberway.com.sg) on: Fri Dec 5 18:59:49 EST 1997

MPR

MSV is certainly better than IR. As mentioned by Ramki, he can sing in low / high pitch without spoiling the words. Sambo, Siva Sambo in Ninaithalae Inikkum is enough to prove MSV is better than IR.
From: Ramki (@ cs515.cs.wmich.edu) on: Fri Dec 5 20:26:48 EST 1997

Mux pls pls listen to that aathadi song again.Leave out the pronounciation but listen to the way he sings.Aathadi is not an easy song to sing.It goes to very high pitch and IR stumbles wheever he goes up high in the pitch.He need not have to be as good as SJ but atleast he could have used her rendition as an inspiration:))Edhukku avarum kastapattu nammalaiyum kodumaipadathanum??:))Luckily he didnt attempt to sing 'kodiyile'song also:))
From: Gokul (@ p1.echostar.com) on: Fri Dec 5 20:40:42 EST 1997

Ramki,

Aathadi Paatai ezhudum pothey "santhosam"nu than
ezhuthirukkunga. IR Kolai pannalay. Antha Paatai
IR Voice'lla kekkum pothey appadiye sooper feeling varudu. Athay poi nalla illai'nnu solreengale.

Deva voice , MSV Voice IR Vida bettera? Ada Kadavuley!! Thudikkudu Pujam!!
From: Gopal (@ 1cust118.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Sat Dec 6 21:30:43 EST 1997

Hmmm! Poruthadhu Podhum

MSV, Deva voice better than IR??

Let me first add to Mukundan's list
1. Aruvadai Naal :: Oru kaaviyam (Oh indha paattukku
IRkku endha awardum paththaadhuma!!)
2. Aanalagan :: Nilladha vennilaa
3. E En Raasaathan :: Veenaikku veenaikunju (Mannikkanum, indha pattil irukkum expressionnallam solli/ezhudhi mudiyaadhu!!!!!!!!!)
4. Punniyavathi:: Gaanakuyile
5. Kaadhalukku Mariyaadhai :: Ennai thaalaatta varuvaayaa ( Oh My! Is IR growing young or what? )
6. Oru gundu mani kulungudhadi from Avathaaram (Great songma!!)
1. Thank God, IR sang these songs instead of giving them to Pro's like SPB!! IR is not a pro singer!! RIght !!
Thats the beauty in his voice!! There is no other singer
in the field who can bring in that unique feeling of helplessness!! When it comes to Soham, nobody can
render a song with emotions flowing!! Then Paandi Cheemaiyile is one great example!! Listen to the line
Yaaradichaaro in that song! It shall break into pieces!!
Can SPB do that?? Never!! IR is the only singer who
can make the song look natural!!!! SPB can make it look melodious! Thats it!!
Listen to Pottu vacha oru vatta nila!! Feeling just inexplicable!! Listen to "Thaayendrum thandhaiyendrum" !! You should dip down in melancholy! Listen to Aalolam paadi from Aavaarampoo!! Oh! The stress he makes when singing "Thaai ilandha thunbam polE thunbamadhu onrum illai" is great!!

Naan yaaru enakkEdhum theriyalayE from
Chinna Jameen!! Oh, lyrics, rendition, pathos, raasaa's
touch here there and everywhere in that songj!!

As regards "PRONUNCIATION", is there anyone who
can sing so clearly, like IR today? He is a total
thamizhan who never messes up with words like "l" and "L" and "ZH" (as in kaadhal, makkaL and thamizh) Absolute "spashtam" that no other singer
can command today!! (He is one of the few tamil related personalities in the tamil film world so to say!!!)

Ramki, what sandosam stuff? Ayya adhu graamiya
lyric ayya!! Hope you dont mess that with the word sandhosham as in sanskrit!! You are singing for a Braaja/vairamuthu combine and any singer would have to do the same thingma!! Another example :: the word Raasaa.

Just listen to the Kanakadhaara sthothram in the beginning of "janani janani". Immaculate pronunciation that pandits of our place should envy!!
Kindly listen to metti oli kaatrodu from metti!! Hey whats he doing man?? Magic! Thats it!!

As regards MSV, Deva kind of comparison, sorry, I aint gonna get into that!!

Besides IRs music and songs, I eagerly look forward to his solos. No gainsaying the fact that his voice, rendition etc., have improved in years!! Carnaatic vidwaans pOLE sabaiyil utkaarndhu thaanE iyatriya keerthanaigalai makkal madhiyil paadi paaraattu petru "IR"ukkiraar. Oru sila carnatic sangeetham therindha "Perusugal" IRin saareera vidhvathinai oppukolvadhu sulabam illai!! Kaaranam, his versatality!!

Last but not the least, to me IRs voice is better than Yesudoss!! Yes, I mean it!! IRs voice is mannin kuralappa!
Stay here, I'll be back!!!
From: RAJAN (@ proxy-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net) on: Sun Dec 7 12:41:54 EST 1997

GOPAL:
Naan solla ninaiththathai neengal sollivitterkal.
Thanks.

Deva voice-ai rasippavar munna pinna Tamil padalgalaiye ketkathavarayiruppar, athanal simply leave that matter.
From: Ramki (@ cs509.cs.wmich.edu) on: Sun Dec 7 13:25:30 EST 1997

Rajan appidiyaanal ilayrarajavin kuralai rasikkum rasigargal musice munne pinne ketkadhavargal endru artham kollalaama???:))

Aamam Yaaro USle Ilaiyarajavukku kovil katta porangaalaam??
From: MPR (@ dyn07.iacc-t23.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Sun Dec 7 16:45:15 EST 1997

Ramki:

Kushbu-virke kovil ellam kattum pothu? IR-virku.... no need to say!!!

MSV can sing in low/high pitches and can pronunce words better than raaja, but antha voice irukke naan sollave vendiyathillai. Gopal has already said enough!!!!
From: pg (@ client-116-28.bellatlantic.net) on: Sun Dec 7 17:47:46 EST 1997

MSV pronounces better than IR - give me a break ! Listen to IR singing 'varugudhaiya maRavar padai' - kalaignar's lyrics in thenpANdi singam. IR also sings much more clearly than MSV.
From: Bhaskar (@ ihgw2.lucent.com) on: Sun Dec 7 18:58:15 EST 1997

Gopal:

I guess the fourth song you mentioned from Punniyavathi is not Gaanakuyile, but Oru aalam pooovu atthi poova parthathunda ??

The song Gaanakuyile is from Pooncholai :)
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ synergy.nus.edu.sg) on: Sun Dec 7 21:34:06 EST 1997

Right from sOLam vedhaikkaiyilE I have been a great
fan of IR's voice. If you take TMS, SPB and KJJ
they are somewhat "standard" and there are others'
voices (Kovai S, Mano, JeyaChandran) which, many
times come close to these voices. But IR's voice is
very unique that no one else has. Not just that,
his voice appears very pleasant and lovable to me.
I simply cannot explain why I like his voice. His
early songs such as
unakkenaththaanE innEramaa naanum kaaththirundhEn
vaadai vaattudhu oru pOrvai kEtkudhu
siRu ponmaNi asaiyum
are wonderful to listen to. These are songs that I
rarely get to listen to, unfortunately. I have
listened to most of the songs mentioned here and
I do not think he has messed-up any of them.
The song ThenpaaNdi seemaiyilE, as Gopal
has pointed out, has been beautifully sung by IR.
If I recall right, SPB has sung the main part of this song --
I wonder why! This important song could have been
fully sung by IR -- there is a special way in which
IR brings out a special depth and emotion required for
such a song, which, I don't think even SPB could
bring-out! IMO, IR should have sung a lot more
number of songs. Can anyone say how many songs he
has sung? It would be nice to compile a full list
of songs sung by IR.
From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Sun Dec 7 23:54:58 EST 1997

Nanbargaley - MSV era-vei seirntha Satya Keerthiyey IR-in pugazh paadiyappin veiru yenna ullathu, solvatharkku?

CS and Ramki may prefer Deva's voice to IR - they are entitled to it - but putting down songs like Adi aathaadi and Naan thedum sevvanthi poovithu was a little bit extreme.

This topic started out as a fun topic but when people started praising Deva's and MSV's voice (to me it sounds like chalk screeching on the blackboard, but then again that is entirely my opinion), I refrained from posting as the discussion began to border on ridiculism. God help TFM if someone can appreciate MSV's voice in Unakkena kuraichal (not the lyrics, mind you).

Discussion kasakkuthaiyya
Vara, vara discussion kasakuthaiyya!
From: Ramki (@ pm136-10.dialip.mich.net) on: Mon Dec 8 00:33:23 EST 1997

Bhaskar i never put down naan thedum sevvandhi or adi aathadi song and i never mentioned Devas voice is better than IR(ell ore....:)).I was highlighting the bad pronounciation. Im a great fan of both the songs u mentioned but the percentage of likeness could have increased if there had been a different singer.
when we listen to a song the first thing we notice is the voice and the music.Music nalla irukkum podhu voice dhrishti pooshnikka madhiri irundhudhunna kandippa aematramae minjum. Paadum podhu voicele modulations irundhadhan oruthure singernnu accept panna mudiyum illenna arasiyalvadhi medaiyile speech kudukkure madhiri dhan irukkum and appidi dhan niraiya samaiyam irundhirrkkku:))
From: Ramki (@ pm136-10.dialip.mich.net) on: Mon Dec 8 00:56:04 EST 1997

oops my previous posting was addressed to NOV and not Bhaskar. Sorry Bhaskar
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ synergy.nus.edu.sg) on: Mon Dec 8 01:02:47 EST 1997

Indha veettukku veettukku vaasappadi vENum
is a very nice song from Kizhakku Vaasal
sung beautifully by IR. This is a kooththu
song that introduces Karthik in the movie. The
initial fast humming (a difficult one to sing) is
sung fluently by IR - something even SPB would be
proud of!
From: Arun (@ internet1.ford.com) on: Mon Dec 8 07:29:41 EST 1997

Sathiya Keerthi:

The rest of thenpaandi cheemaiyile was sung by *Kamalhaasan* not SPB. I agree with you that IR's voice is very unique. He is the ideal choice for rustic songs like kaattu vazhi pora ponney and dozens of other songs. I can't imagine anyone else that could add more value to that type of songs.

However, I think IR is not suited for melodious duets and he has failed to accept the limitations of his voice. I am not taking about his singing ability but only the limitations of his voice.

NOV:

I also enjoy naan thedum and adi aathaadi. Those are good songs *in spite of* of IR as the singer not because of. SJ easily outdoes IR in those songs. IR gaspingly follows trying to catch up with her. (Listen how SJ modulates when she repeats poovo ithu vaa.. aa.. aaa.. sam and how IR does when he tries it.) Those songs would have been *even* better with MV or Jayachandran IMHO.

- Arun.
From: arvind (@ 208.3.135.240) on: Mon Dec 8 13:07:16 EST 1997

Arun

i strongly disagree, raaja has a lot melodies to his name

janani janni -- thai mookambigai
thulli ezunthathu paatu -- gethanjali
thindaaduthe -- aananda gummi
From: Mukundan (@ 199.97.2.3) on: Mon Dec 8 13:30:33 EST 1997

Hi SathyaKeerthi,

You have given the exact perspective, this discussion should take, in my viewpoint. Like
you have mentioned, I don't know what is so
attractive in IR's voice, but as you said I
have liked his singing much that I have felt
an overwhelming emotions in his singing.

Sometimes his emotional expression are unmatched.

I have an analogous situation where you like
a like a face for the humanity it exhibits
against a "PICTURE PERFECT" face.

BTW,

I heard from Rajaram that you are same Sathyakeerthi "the professor" from IISc. I did
my ECE there. Nice to see in these topics.

Bye
Mukund
From: Arun (@ internet1.ford.com) on: Mon Dec 8 15:51:49 EST 1997

Arvind:

I did not say IR can not or did not sing melodies. I just said that his voice is not suited for melodies. Except Janani.. Janani other two would have been better with someone else, IMO. For a devotional song like Janani, the eccentricity in the singer's voice adds mystique. (Example: Aedu thanthaanadi thillaiyiley by Pattammaal.)

- Arun.
From: Gopal (@ 1cust188.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Mon Dec 8 16:52:37 EST 1997

I was struggling to get the right phrase! Thanx to Sathya Keerthi for that expression! "I simply cannot explain why I like his voice" That sums up! Its like the new Nissan Altima advertisement on TV in the US. "I donno but I like it".
IRs voice need not necessarily be reduced to a perspective controlled by listening instincts. I gain peace when I listen to his melodies, pathos songs. I kept this unto me for very many years. But suddenly I started enquiring people about his voice, and voila there were people around me who shared my view about his voice.
His rendering of some songs might sound outlandish or chord-breaking at times, but thats it. The very struggle makes me identify myself with his emotions. Its like the walker on the street pulled to dias and made to sing, caught unawares. What would the walker do? Be shocked for a minute or two, but goes on with his rendition. Look, I dont want anyone to agree with me. But these are the qualities that other singers dont have. The corollary is IRs weak points with his vocal chords have fortunately or unfortunately impressed me to the point of throwing me to some state of peace and ecstasy. Definitely this should vary from person to person, needless to say, but in IRs case, he has struck a concordant note with his larynx inspite of the so called technical irregularities. A true iconoclast !!!
Till date, not a single carnatic vidwan (or vidwaness!!) has impressed me with pronunciation of words, needless to mention the kind of accent followed by them when it comes to other languages besides tamil. They pull and push and javvufy the words and i really do not know how the Gods were to accept them as prayers and decipher the real logic of entreaty thats supposedly hiding behind the songs. Look I am not ridiculing carnatic music. But when thousands nod heads not knowing what is being said, but, still consider the song complete in all respects, why not accept the song by a man rendered with all life and emotions?? This goes to prove the myth that great singing is only for those gifted with vocal chords that define and redefine technical accuracy!! IR said in an interview that the farmer who sows seeds and sings a song is the one who is selfless and his song is the best!! Have you listened to such bucolic renditions, along the countryside in our place?? God! Only the singer should enjoy as it would be wide off the established norms!! But, still there is some unparalleled greatness in that song and voice, as it is natural. Its rather unfortunate that we people have been exposed to some greater aural treat laced with technical wizardry thanx to singers like SPB, TMS, Yesu etc., that we have failed to appreciate the "ingenue" of IR that was either less appreciable in those big singers or sometimes lacking as in case of TMS.
Sorry, I never thought of depreciating Deva, MSV or any other established singer's voice. But as someone put it, when it is IR, its UNIQUE. To me IRs voice carries no stigma. Just an enigma !!

Bhaskar, thanx for the correction.
Ramki, sandosamnu sollumbodhu, utcharippu thappu apdeennu sonna i think you are you are talking about senthamizh?? Tirunelveli pakkam sandosamnu thaan solvaanga. Idhu maruvi vandha sol (word). Enna thappu? Pls reply.
From: NOV (@ 202.184.134.10) on: Mon Dec 8 23:47:05 EST 1997

Ramki - your statement "Paadum podhu voicele modulations irundhadhan oruthure singernnu accept panna mudiyum illenna arasiyalvadhi medaiyile speech kudukkure madhiri dhan irukkum and appidi dhan niraiya samaiyam irundhirrkkku" seems to contradict your acceptance of Arun Mozhi as a good singer! :-))))

Gopal - your analogy reminds me of the song Paadariyein padipariyein..., especially the stanza which goes, puriyaatha kootam thalayei aatum! :-))

Arun - What say you of Intha maan unthan sontha maan?

Ramki mentioned that IR spoiled the songs in Geetanjali. Aren't there any opposers to that. Or am I alone to think that IR has done beautiful justice to the songs?
From: Ramki (@ pm133-00.dialip.mich.net) on: Tue Dec 9 00:49:51 EST 1997

Gopal when im listening to a song im just listening to a tamil song - im not bothered whether its thirunelveli tamizh or madurai tamizh or coimbatore tamizh or chennai pattnam.Btw the story of kadalora kavidhaigal takes place in OOty and then goes to Madras.Idhile engerndhu thirunelveli tamizh vandhudhu??:)))

Nov I never said Arunmozhi is a good singer(Pls refer to that thread again).But i will definitely say AMs voice is much better than IRs
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Tue Dec 9 03:02:10 EST 1997

I guess we are getting into a loop in this discussion.
Some love the fellow's voice, some like
it and some others hate it. That's the reality, I guess!

Mukund:

Nice to meet you here. When were you at IISc? What
are you doing now? (For everyone's sake it would
be nice if you introduce yourself at the TFM-DF
has created numerous web addicts ... thread.)
From: Ravy (@ eagle.vapower.com) on: Tue Dec 9 12:55:49 EST 1997

Guys: Sandosam is an acceptable tamil word and so are rosa or rasa (roja, raja). Though I'm not a fan of IR's voice, his pronounciation IMHO is impeccable. In recent times he has taken extra efforts to pronounce Sanskrit words.

Ramki: Be it Ooty or Madras, Kadalora Kavidhaigal had a 'grameeya' kadhai and characters. So sandosam is more apt.

What I don't understand is why is that most of the actors/actresses in Tamil films have trouble in pronouncing 'zha'. Like azhugai is pronounced as alugai etc. 'Zha' is a kinda of unique (sans Malayalam)letter in Tamil but a lot of tamilians are not able to get it right.
From: Mukund (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Tue Dec 9 17:11:21 EST 1997

Hi guys,

As per Sathyakeerthi's request let me introduce
myself. I am working here in Hyundai Electronics
America and have been good listener of TFM songs
for last 2 to 3 years. In this group I know
Rajaram very well and "Madurai Mannaru" Ganesan
too. I know them thru my ME in IISc in ECE department.

Ever since I accidentally came across TFM site I have been hooked to this site.

The collective knowledge of all of us at TFM is
really so great. I have been amazed at the way in
which a song gets dissected among so many of
us representing so many different tastes, knowledge and access to different cateogories of
music. It has been probably a month since I started participating in the Disscussion Forum.

Sathyakeerthi:
FYI, I did my ME(Int) from 1988-1992 in ECE dept.
I used to stay in P Block for 91-92 period. You
would probably remember L.Anand who did his
'Optimization' course with you. He was my classmate.

BTW, here is atleast one line concerning the
topic of discussion. How about this song that I
listened to yesterday - 'en paatu en paatu' -
simple great !!

Thanks,
Mukund
From: Mukundan (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Tue Dec 9 17:16:51 EST 1997

Ramki,

I have not taken time to listen to Adi aathadi
as per your request. Will let you know once I do
that.

Mukund
From: Gopal (@ 1cust184.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Tue Dec 9 18:16:47 EST 1997

Ramki

How can usage (sandosam) turn into mispronunciation? Call it misplaced (instead of sandhosham) and i may agree with you becos, as you said it is an urban story and no gramiya stuff. So it has not been pronounced wrongly !!!

Mukundan, En paattu from Poomani is great.

Here are some great ones from the maestro
Gaana kuyile from Pooncholai
Oru aalampoovu from Punyavathi
Ennai thaalaata from K Mariyaadhai

In the movie "innisaimazhai" have you guys listened to the song "mangai nee maangani" by IR? I dont think IR has given a slow song like that. Great one.

Another good one from 'aruvadai naal' namely oru kaaviyam arangErum nEram by IR. Whaw!!

Another great fast piece by IR is "Kanniyila sikkaathaiya kaanaankuruvi"
From: Ramki (@ cs517.cs.wmich.edu) on: Tue Dec 9 18:55:10 EST 1997

There is a IR song in 'en uyir kannamma'.Can someone help me in reminding that song?
From: Rajaraman (@ 192.122.135.224) on: Tue Dec 9 20:41:03 EST 1997

Ramki.. It is "Poompaarayil pottu vacha poonguruvi.."
(I can see how you miss 96.8 and Vaanoli 6. : )
From: Aravind (@ 202.42.152.9) on: Tue Dec 9 21:06:47 EST 1997

Ramki

'kadalOrak kavithaigaL' is set in a village called 'muttam'. Sathyaraj's character name itself is 'muttam' Sinnappathaas. padam pUrA kadal vanthukittE irukkum. Ootyle engke kadal vanthathu?

Moreover, I cannot accept your statement that you see a Tamil song as a Tamil song. 'adi AththAdi' it not just a Tamil song. It is a song from a Tamil movie. Any song has to stick to it's situation. Suresh Peters stylele antha pAttai pAdinA eppadi irukkum?
From: Ravi (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on: Wed Dec 10 12:57:21 EST 1997

Mukundan: The right place to give your intro is the 'TFM forum has created number of web addicts' thread as pointed out by SSK. That thread will stay for ever, while others might get archived. I'l repost your intro there.
From: Mukund (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Wed Dec 10 14:00:03 EST 1997

Hi RAvi,

Thanks. I just breezed thru SSK's posting I guess.
I overlooked this point.

Bye,
Mukund
From: Shashi (@ 137.197.35.41) on: Thu Dec 11 20:49:13 EST 1997

Hello everybody!!

I have not discussed much in this forum for a long time. However, I cannot stop myself when it comes to discussing voices and singing.

There was an earlier discussion along similar lines comparing Janaki, Susheela and Chitra. I had expressed my opinions somewhere along the line about these singers as well.

In a similar fashion let me first say that we are discussing 2 issues when we talk about a singer.
1. the voice --this is God given/unique/innate/inborn quality which you have to live with (except if you get operated on your vocal cords, took hormones etc...)
2. the capability to control this voice and achieve "perfectness" --this quality is acquired by lots of hard work, dedication etc...
There is a subdivision in this category. People may work towards voice control to:
a. bring out more emotions
b. bring out perfection in music itself(the individual notes); in other words this is the ability to make your vocal cords vibrate to a certain frequency at your command.

Without a doubt the singer who is blessed with a great voice( I will repeat that this has nothing to do with talent) and who has worked hard and achieved both perfect voice control( perfect pitch/frequency etc..) and perfect voice modulation (ability to emote well) would be the "ideal singer". Even here voice by itself is a matter of opinion and hence there are bound to be disagreements.

Now when you analyze Raja's voice this is what we get.
1. Voice by itself--rustic yet mild with a touch of meloncholy. At times it even seems to have a philosophical quality to it. By comparison somebody like SPB would be discribed as having a smooth, jazzy, romatic yet playful and at times quite convincingly deep.

2a. Raja's ability to express the meaning of the song or in other words, ability to put-in the right emotion (NOTE the "Right emotion" for the mood of the song) is vast. His ability to bring out despair and longing in the song "antha vaanatha pola manam padaitha manavane" is amazing. At the same time "Kannu pada poguthaiya chinna gownderay.." in the same movie is very neutral and reminds one of a well-wishing/ good hearted villager prasing his idol. Imagine if this song was sung by SPB it would have ruined the image of a neutral villager singing and instead would sound like a citybred, romantic, modern, pop-loving kind of person singing about "Chinna kounder".
It is precisely here that Raja excels. Be it a sad song, philosophical song, love song, funny song, rowdy song (Machi mannaru... an excellent example), romantic song (numerous examples already posted by Gopal and Sathya keerthi; I do personally love "yaaro..." in Ullasam) the emotions conveyed are very satisfying to say the least.

Here again, I would also like to say that most good music directors (I stress GOOD and you'all know who this excludes) do bring out the best emotion in a particular song. Obviously they are the ones who visualize the song in their minds-eye much before anybody and other singers simply can only interpret these thoughts; we all know how difficult it is to explain feelings in words!--may be that is why I am wordy?) I have felt many times that MSV does a very good job in conveying the emotions right. In that respect I think his songs do fare well. In fact although I love Arun Mozhi for his voice quality I know he is pretty pathetic in emoting and overall manages to do a decent job in most neutral songs.

Now the other subdivision, i.e., 2b. the perfect control over pitch, gamakam etc... which is a result of hard work cannot be discounted. I dont deny at all that this is absolutely important to demonstrate one's prowess and voice control capability etc.. especially in classical music, be it carnatic or hindustani. When this part of Raja's talents are analyzed he falls into a category of mediorce caliber. He can most definitely outwit the majority of people but still falls short of the "so called masters". In this regard I would like to add that over the years he has definitely made progress and this is clear if you listened to "Raja's Ramana Malai-- where he has sung a beautiful hindolam; this is to illustrate an earlier view of Raja failing with a hindolam piece in Kadalora kavithaigal.

Another way to look at this voice control talent issue is this; if you think perfect pitch is all that matters then you can listen to a musical instrument playing the main song itself ( as they used to do in AIR--when you had a few minutes to kill before the next program begins, they broadcast this cine tune played a guy in hawaiian guitar; this pretty soon becomes anoying as he is trying to play a Kishore Kumar's classic although with perfect pitch but without words and emotion). Although this is not a fair comparison as the musical instrument cannot get the words and the instrument by itself has its own emotion. (Sarangi--meloncholy; solo violin--sadness; flute--joy; santoor--playfull etc..)

Regarding his pronounciation I would say that he is simply one of the best we have today. As people have pointed out before "sandosam" in KK is not a mistake but a necessity. If sandosam was the wrong pronounciation then sarcastically speaking Ramki should consider the whole song of "Machi mannaru en mansukule bejaru.." to be entirely mispronounced. We all know that this is not the case but it was a delibrate attempt to speak "Madras-thamil". I personally love this song, especially the beauty of Chitra's voice blends well with the rowdy voice of Raja and his pronounciation--quite right for the mood and setting of this song in En Uyir Thozhan.
One another example of Raja's exceptional pronounciation has been outlined by Gopal in his recitation of the sanskrit sloka before the song Nathiyil aadum poovanam... In this respect I would like to point out a song in Raja's earlier devotional album "Geetanjali". There is a song which is a beautiful Keeravani namely "Kaamakshi karunavilasini, kaamakoti peeta vaasini, sanjeevini, kaamakoti peeta vaasini...". The prounciation is par excellence in this song given its difficult sanskrit words in its 2nd and 3rd stanzas. This beautiful song is reborn as "Vaaraayo, unnake saran naangale, vedham nangil vazhum naayagi, varavendume, vedham nangil vazhum naayagi...", by Mano in the movie Athma (I am not very sure of this). I have listened to both these songs and would undoubtedly pick the earlier version by Raja as much superior although Mano has a wonderful job singing but loses points in emoting.

I was happy to see one other soul (Gopal) who has the same kind of feeling about "Pottu vaitha oru vatta nila.." I was more impressed with Raja's version than Yesudas's just for the fact that the emotion was brought out much better.

In conclusion Raja as a singer--very valuable. This is not to say he can replace anybody and should sing all the songs. Obviously you need a Yesudas to sing "Thom thom tha namthath thom thom..." (Sindhu Bhairavi) and an SPB to sing "Poo potta Dhavani, selayil aduthe..." (Kakkichattai).

Comments welcome.
From: Gopal (@ 1cust76.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Fri Dec 12 01:03:00 EST 1997

Shashi,

Thanx for reminding Raaja's devotional album "Geethanjali". The following are the songs in that album.
1. intro by IR followed by the song "nee sankari, nee sundari"
2. Amma janani charanaalayam nee
3. Enakkoru annai valarthanaL ennai
4. Kaamaakshi karunaavilaasini kaamakOti peetavaasini
5. namaste jagathaadri
6. vetrigalin mudhatporulE
7. Muruganai ninai maname
8. thaniyaaga naan enna kEttEn
9. marandhEn pirandhEn maram pOl valarndhEn

lyrics 1. IR, 2thro5 vaalee, 6thro9 tamilnambi

Its hard to pick the best in this album, yet, "kaamakshi karunaavilaasini" is my love. Raaja starts with an intro in which he says "indha paadalgalai kEtkindra jeevangalil orE oru jeevanaavadhu ivan aanmaavai karayavittirukkeeraan enru enni mahizhndhaal naan jenmam eduthadhin payanaai enni maghizhvEn" and by the time you listen to all the songs in the album, yes, you are transported to the world of bliss. No jokes!!
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Fri Dec 12 17:00:44 EST 1997

Hi Shashi,

Excellent article. Of very high quality. Wish to see more such
contributions.
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Fri Dec 12 17:04:11 EST 1997

Forgot to mention. As gOpAl and shashi have mentioned, IR's
pronunciation in kAmAkshi karuNA vilAsini is too good. Not even
carnatic vidhwans (including MSS who, in my opinion is over-
rated for her pronunciations but many a time sodhapifies) can
claim such clarity of pronunciations.
From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ synergy.nus.edu.sg) on: Fri Dec 12 20:45:23 EST 1997

Shashi:

Tremendous analysis of IR's voice and where it
suits and where it doesn't! You and Gopal should
spend some time to rewrite your comments in the
form of an article and put it in IR Homepage.

I should add that IR does a good job of choosing
the songs that he should sing. It is also possible
that, sometimes he creates an intricate tune and
feels that only he alone (as singer) can do
proper justice to that tune.

Gopal:

This is the first time I am hearing about Geetanjali.
I will buy the cassette soon if it is available in Singapore. Thanks for mentioning it.
From: Vinod (@ d1-1-14.jenkintown.dialup.ans.net) on: Fri Dec 12 20:58:09 EST 1997

There is another ablum by name "Ilayarajavin Geethavazhipaadu" which is another gem of IR
From: Mukund (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on: Fri Dec 12 20:58:59 EST 1997

Good posting Shashi!. It does not contain any remarks which are not thought over well. Moreover,
you have covered all the aspects that are to be
considered. A very balanced consideration!!

:-) Only problem with this is there are not any
unnecessary remarks to provoke a response and sustain tha discussion. Like SSK said this is more
of a conclusion.

Bye,
Mukund
From: Vinod (@ d1-4-237.jenkintown.dialup.ans.net) on: Fri Dec 12 23:13:47 EST 1997

BTW... Good posting Shashi
From: pinchi srinivasan (@ proxy3.po.com) on: Sat Dec 13 07:39:20 EST 1997

Hi nanbargale,this is pinchi srinivasan,
Thanks to Shashi And Gopal for their Xelent discussion, I have been following this discussion for the last few weeks and expected somebody to discuss about the song "Sola pasungiliye" (Sorry if I missed the wordings) from "En Raasavin Manasule " ( Rajkiran Dubba's), I honestly do not know if it is the music in that song or the emotional output of IR which made people kalangify while (of course!) listening to the song. I have lot of different situations of songs by IR giving the impact exactly in a way that we experience the emotional feeling of the singing character,I totally dis agree about somebody's statement about 'movie Geethanjali's songs not appropriately sung by IR.I still enjoy each and every song of this movie so much including "kiliye Kiliye". there is absolutely no point in comparing IR with be it MSV , TMS, SPB,KJJ, If IR wanted to sing "Unne Ninaichen Paattu Padichen" from "Apoorva Sahodarargal" it might not have taken much time from him , but he didn't B'cos once again I think as Sashi said probably (IR being a great genious) chooses the most appropriate one which by way of his experience he surely thinks will come out as nice , listenable ,enjoyable , melodeous one. I am sure he never thinks the song should be a great hit b'cos of singing.The ecstasy attained by perhaps ovvoru IR rasigarum when they listen even after several hundred years the song "Poomaleye thozh seravaa" of Pagal Nilavu oru samayam namballem maru maru maru piravi eduthu , ippo eppadi Beethoven, Mozart ivargaloda isaiye namba kettukitturukkomo appadi - i may be just kidding) but atleast ennai porutha varaiyulum that is true. I will continue soon, I am being paged.

r
From: RAJAN (@ proxy-105.iap.bryant.webtv.net) on: Sat Dec 13 10:45:34 EST 1997

SHASHI:

IR's recent album "VASUKI" has 4 more songs in "Madras-Tamil".

"Poluthu vidinchikithu, koli goovikithu..." by IR
"vamsaththukku vaya ponnu" - by mano, AM
"Muththamma looku vida " by mano, chitra
"veppilaya" by malasia vasudevan, chitra

Chitra in "Madras-tamil" is simply superb.
From: pg (@ client-116-1.bellatlantic.net) on: Sat Dec 13 18:34:58 EST 1997

Did anybody read Unnikrishnan's interview in Kumudam a few issues back ?

He mentions that IR's expectations from his singers are very high and it is very difficult if not impossible to please him.

Maybe that's the reason why IR decides to sing quite a few songs himself.
From: MPR (@ dyn07.iacc-t23.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Sun Dec 14 00:38:17 EST 1997

pg:

Yes I did. He also told singing for movies is tougher than singing karnatic music. Is this true? I thought the other way around.
From: Sundar Ramanathan (@ 202.54.10.97) on: Sun Dec 14 02:17:25 EST 1997

guys, sorry abt the mild digression
couldn't resist it

shashi...

reg. spb singing 'kaNNu padap pOgudhaiyaa..' would
have ruined the ...etc. etc.

i feel spb has not done a bad job at all
singing the similiarly 'vaanam thottup pOnaan'
from 'thEvar magan'

what say?
From: MPR (@ dyn07.iacc-t23.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Sun Dec 14 13:57:41 EST 1997

Sorry for the typo. It should be Carnatic .... not Kar....
From: r.ravi (@ 202.54.35.134) on: Mon Dec 15 14:28:41 EST 1997

To: Shashi
Well, shashi there is a italian soul out there hunting for raaja's address to do a project with him in a international scale.Since you have been to his house and recording theatre and all, hope you know his add, phone no or email-id etc.Please do mail her the details to
angelica@iperbole.bologna.it, immediately.This lady seems to have started a thread namely " Can i have ilayaraaja's address ". So please go thru it. If you have already done it then thanx a lot.
From: Bhaskar (@ ihgw2.lucent.com) on: Tue Dec 16 00:36:19 EST 1997

Ennai thaalatta varuvaaloo indha paattil IR nijamagave nammai thalatta varugiraar :) I liked the IR's version of this song more than Hariharan's.
From: vijay (@ 129.252.29.219) on: Tue Dec 16 01:15:49 EST 1997

i don't know whether anyone has mentioned the foll songs of IR

1. ponnoviyam -kazhugu
2.eh vanjikodi- ponnumani
3.kadhal enbadhu-- paalaivana rojaakal
4.arum kadalum- mudhal vasantham
.
From: MPR (@ ca27.cc.ndsu.nodak.edu) on: Tue Dec 16 01:28:47 EST 1997

Vijay:

Ponnoviyam - what a wonderful song, how many years I love and will love this song? Dunno, certainly one of the best.
From: Gopal (@ 1cust87.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Tue Dec 16 12:04:31 EST 1997

There are people who say "Hey vanjikodi" is no good. But, I love that song, and its great.
From: AthiNarayanan (@ pm181-04.dialip.mich.net) on: Sun Dec 28 02:31:02 EST 1997

Luckily nobody commented that ARR's voice is better.For besides giving montonous compositions,ARR has spoiled many of his songs by his voice.

Good to know about the Italian wishing to do a project with him.

Probably we should write a letter to sony reminding them that a great musician like Raja is there and they need not go agog at a mediocre guy like ARR.
From: r.ravi (@ m31.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Sun Dec 28 14:22:52 EST 1997

I wish that Akio Morita of sony listen to a song from "Jappanil kalyanaraman" namely "chinnappoo chinnappoo....". The song has a exccellent music with a japanese tinge. It actually makes you feel you are in japan. Maybe Morita will bash up the Sony India team after listening to this.
From: Sujatha (@ ww-tf06.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue May 19 14:35:37 EDT 1998

Dear friends,
Nobody has mentioned about a good song of IR.
That is 'Vaada vattuthu. Oru Porva ketkuthu.'
Just you listen it once. Then you will feel its wonderness.
From: Reva (@ 202.54.37.18) on: Wed Sep 9 23:06:39 EDT 1998

Ananda Vikatan's latest issue says ...

isai amaippai poruththamattil IRdhaan raajaa
enbadhil no two opinions. aanaal kuraleduththu
paaduvadhai pOtruvOrum uNdu, thootruvOrum uNdu.
pinnavargaLin katchikku balam sErppadhaaga
irukkiRadhu, Poonthottam padaththil avar paadiya
"iniya malargaL malarum". adhu iniyadhaagavum illai,
malarvadhaagavum illai, malaravum illai. A downright
disappointing effort.

I wonder why the fellow who made that comment did
not notice the soulful singing by Raja in another
song in the same movie:

vaanaththilirundhu boomikku vandhEnaa
boomikkuLLirundhu muLaichchu vandhEnaa

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